Scottish notes?

[Howardh]

My old shop had a sign explaining "sorry, we do not take Scottish notes" which, being 1/4 Scots myself, I was quite miffed by.

What is the situation regarding (a) ticket offices and (b) automatic machines - in England and Wales - accepting Scottish currency??

I assume Isle Of Man fivers are out of the question....

 

[najaB]

My old shop had a sign explaining "sorry, we do not take Scottish notes" which, being 1/4 Scots myself, I was quite miffed by.

What is the situation regarding (a) ticket offices and (b) automatic machines - in England and Wales - accepting Scottish currency??

I assume Isle Of Man fivers are out of the question....

Although the term 'Legal Tender' gets bandied around quite a bit, nobody is under any obligation to accept either Bank of England or Scottish notes of any denomination England and Wales is the only part of the UK that places an obligation to accept banknotes (Bank of England only). That said, my understanding is that every Scottish note is backed by a Bank of England note and so anyone accepting BOE notes should also accept Scottish.

The same is not true of NI, Channel Island or Manx currency which is why it is frequently not accepted.

The situation with automated systems like ticket machines is a bit more complex and depends on the particular machine. I've had no problem using Scottish notes in NI, but had a machine in England refuse a Scottish fiver.

 

[Merseysider]

CHAPTER 7: METHODS OF PAYMENT PART I: GENERAL

7-1 REQUIREMENT TO ACCEPT CERTAIN METHODS OF PAYMENT

(1) Generally applicable methods of payment

Each Operator must accept the following methods of payment for Rail Products:-

(a) cash denominated in pounds sterling;

As Scottish banknotes are denominated in pounds sterling, they must be accepted just the same as English ones.

Link to the TSA

 

[74A]

The concept of legal tender applies to a debt. If you go into a restaurant eat £50 of food and then offer a £50 pound note then the restaurant must accept it even if they have a sign saying they do not.

However if you want to purchase £50 of shirts and you offer £50 note the shop can simply refuse to sell you the items. They haven't actually refused to accept the note they have declined to sell you the item.

 

[najaB]

The concept of legal tender applies to a debt. If you go into a restaurant eat £50 of food and then offer a £50 pound note then the restaurant must accept it even if they have a sign saying they do not.

Only if it's a BOE note and you're in England or Wales. And strictly speaking they can still refuse to accept it, but can't then do you for theft.

 

[Howardh]

Hmm, thanks! Sounds to me that if you get on at an unstaffed station without machine, the guard/conductor will have to accept the Scots note whether he/she is under instructions not to accept?

 

[najaB]

Hmm, thanks! Sounds to me that if you get on at an unstaffed station without machine, the guard/conductor will have to accept the Scots note whether he/she is under instructions not to accept?

They can refuse to accept a Scottish note - they aren't legal tender, instead they are promissory notes. But as I noted above it is less likely to happen with Scottish notes than with Irish or Manx since they are better known and have a BOE pound on deposit to back it up.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Acceptable methods of payment can be found over on NRE, more specifically here.

Ticket Offices and on-train staff should accept sterling notes issued by:

• Bank of England
• Allied Irish Banks (aka First Trust Bank)
• Bank of Ireland
• Danske Bank (formerly Northern Bank)
• Ulster Bank
• Bank of Scotland
• Clydesdale Bank
• Royal Bank of Scotland
• Isle of Man Bank
• States of Guernsey
• States of Jersey

In terms of coins, only Royal Mint issues should be accepted. Guernsey/Isle of Man/Jersey coins explicitly aren't.

 

[IanXC]

I think CyrusWuff has answered the OPs question very precisely!

Although the term 'Legal Tender' gets bandied around quite a bit, nobody is under any obligation to accept either Bank of England or Scottish notes of any denomination England and Wales is the only part of the UK that places an obligation to accept banknotes (Bank of England only).

As i understand it England and Wales is the only part of the UK where Legal Tender (the concept of fixed items which are always acceptable to settle a debt) includes banknotes, however Legal Tender isnt a particularly useful concept outside England and Wales.

That said, my understanding is that every Scottish note is backed by a Bank of England note and so anyone accepting BOE notes should also accept Scottish.

The same is not true of NI, Channel Island or Manx currency which is why it is frequently not accepted.

Every Scottish and Northern Irish note is backed by the banks issuing their own notes with Bank of England notes of equivalent value (using 'notes' printed on A4 LaserJet paper!).

Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man are effectively separate currencies held at parity with Sterling by the governments of the respective islands - hence there is a theoretical risk those notes might not end up having the expected value.

The situation with automated systems like ticket machines is a bit more complex and depends on the particular machine. I've had no problem using Scottish notes in NI, but had a machine in England refuse a Scottish fiver.

I've not found a self service machine if anynkind which doesn't accept all sterling notes - I suspect the appalling state of the average Scottish fiver might have more to do with it?

 

[Howardh]

llluminating stuff!

I suppose next time I catch a train and find I haven't enough cash, paying my debt with a dozen eggs or a pig's trotter won't do......

I did once fly back from the Isle Of Man with something like three IOM fivers in the wallet + a small amount of change. Luckily to pay for the train ride I had my card, but I've often wondered...and you've all supplied the answer. Thanks!!

 

[najaB]

I've not found a self service machine if anynkind which doesn't accept all sterling notes - I suspect the appalling state of the average Scottish fiver might have more to do with it?

It used to be the case that the TfL ticket machines at Victoria underground station had signs up saying that they don't take Scottish notes (I'm guessing due to the hordes of Scots getting off the Megabus), I don't know if that is still the case.

 

[LowLevel]

We even have a section on our remittance sheet for Scots and Irish notes so we certainly accept them (usually with much relief from the bearer at being able to get rid of them!).

I did look very closely at a Danske Bank one the other week though - the name confused me!

 

[70014IronDuke]

They can refuse to accept a Scottish note - they aren't legal tender, instead they are promissory notes. But as I noted above it is less likely to happen with Scottish notes than with Irish or Manx since they are better known and have a BOE pound on deposit to back it up.

Indeed, there was an article in the Financial Times maybe 10 or 12 years ago which pointed out that Scottish notes are not legal tender, not even in Scotland!

Our OP now had more right to feel incensed

 

[pdeaves]

They can refuse to accept a Scottish note - they aren't legal tender, instead they are promissory notes.

Strictly, Bank of England notes are promissory notes, too. They even say on them "I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of" (then the appropriate value). A £5 note, for example, does not contain £5-worth of material, the bank promises to exchange it for £5 of metal. A £1 coin theoretically contains £1 worth of metal.

 

[Ediswan]

• State of Guernsey
• State of Jersey

To be picky, it is "States of ..." plural, in both cases.

 

[Flying Snail]

It used to be the case that the TfL ticket machines at Victoria underground station had signs up saying that they don't take Scottish notes (I'm guessing due to the hordes of Scots getting off the Megabus), I don't know if that is still the case.

I have tried a few times with NI notes at TfL machines and never had them accepted.

A right pain in the arse they are to use in England, an utterly pointless arrangement for the public so I can only assume these banks gain financially from printing these semi-useless pieces of paper.

 

[Mojo]

It used to be the case that the TfL ticket machines at Victoria underground station had signs up saying that they don't take Scottish notes (I'm guessing due to the hordes of Scots getting off the Megabus), I don't know if that is still the case.

The LU machines at some major stations now take Scottish notes; but I'm not sure if this extends to Victoria. The TfL machines at Victoria aren't of the design that take notes.

 

[Agent_c]

I have tried a few times with NI notes at TfL machines and never had them accepted.

A right pain in the arse they are to use in England, an utterly pointless arrangement for the public so I can only assume these banks gain financially from printing these semi-useless pieces of paper.

I think its more of a pride/advertising thing.

Once upon a time there was a note war between RBS and the Bank of Scotland, one stockpiled the others notes and then took em all to the other's head office demanding they be redeemed... Almost drove the other bank out of business... Since then they both realised that doing such a thing is very very irresponsible for the economy...

 

[lejog]

My old shop had a sign explaining "sorry, we do not take Scottish notes" which, being 1/4 Scots myself, I was quite miffed by.

What is the situation regarding (a) ticket offices and (b) automatic machines - in England and Wales - accepting Scottish currency??

I assume Isle Of Man fivers are out of the question....

I sigh when I see (perfectly reasonable) questions like this asked, because they always lead to discussions about surely the most misunderstood phrase in the English language - legal tender. Considerations of legal tender (at least as defined in the UK) are totally irrelevant when offering payment, they are only relevant to settling debts.

Contract law is highly relevant since sellers may choose to accept any means of payment or equally refuse them. If sellers choose to refuse Scottish currency or even legal tender such as Bank Of England banknotes that is up to them. You can turn up at a London bus stop with an English £5 note and argue that its legal tender as long as you like, but you won't get on a bus!

 

[70014IronDuke]

I sigh when I see (perfectly reasonable) ...........

You can turn up at a London bus stop with an English £5 note and argue that its legal tender as long as you like, but you won't get on a bus!

You won't? Have we adopted the euro by stealth or something?

 

[Tetchytyke]

The concept of legal tender applies to a debt. If you go into a restaurant eat £50 of food and then offer a £50 pound note then the restaurant must accept it even if they have a sign saying they do not

That isn't what legal tender means. It means that if there is a court debt then the creditor must accept the payment, i.e. if you settle a CCJ with a fifty then you're OK, but if you try and do it with £50 of coppers you're not.

Companies are entitled to state what methods of payment they take, and that is entirely their discretion. I could set up a shop in Pall Mall that only accepts the AmEx Black Card if I wanted to.

 

[bangor-toad]

Living in Northern Ireland but having to travel over to the UK reasonably often leaves me with 4 types of notes in my wallet:

Euros
NI banknotes
Scottish banknotes
English banknotes

Here are my experiences of what's accepted:
NI will accept anything without fuss. £'s of any origin and Euros in many cases. (And in one notorious incident in the local paper; genuine monopoly money )
Scotland: Any Scottish & English - won't / don't want to take NI stuff.
England: English everywhere (obviously!), Scottish sometimes but rarely, NI notes only in a very few places (Post Offices seem OK)

Oddly enough I've discovered that the HSBC automatic paying-in machines in England accept any type of NI and Scottish notes as well.

Frankly given the rather poor condition and very varied designs of NI notes I would fully understand why an English retailer would not want to accept them as they just wouldn't know it's a real note.

My advice: Keep the appropriate notes and make of point of enjoying yourself by travelling to the appropriate place to spend them. After all, isn't this a Forum to encourage travel?

Cheers,
Mr Toad

 

[cuccir]

Interesting that you've found that Scottish notes are only 'rarely' accepted in your experience... is this a geographical thing in England? I've lived in Cumbria or North East England my whole life and have encountered Scottish money in circulation periodically (once a year or maybe every other year). I also travel to Scotland for work typically once or twice a year and have never had any trouble using any money back here.

As a teenager I worked in a Lake District tourist attraction and we received a Scottish note most weeks and Irish notes at least once or twice a month - we were alerted of their existence when we started working there and were encouraged to accept them! So they can be got rid of at major tourist attractions. However if it wasn't for that experience I wouldn't be familiar with Irish notes and can imagine that it's very difficult to spend them outside of travel or tourist sites.

 

[sheff1]

I also travel to Scotland for work typically once or twice a year and have never had any trouble using any money back here.

I travel to Scotland once or twice a month and have only ever had one problem trying to use a Scottish note in England - that made me change butcher (no problem as we have 4 in the local High St )

 

[northwichcat]

I like the suggestion someone once made that if you have a Scottish note and are in England go in to the pub and ask for a pint. After they pour the point, present the Scottish note - they aren't then likely to refuse the sale!

 

[strowger]

Deleted

 

[Howardh]

I suppose if I offered anyone a tenner, they don't have to take it, in so far as if I offered my card they might not have the hardware to deal with it.

Leads to the obvious question, you are on a train* with £100 worth of Scots notes, but nothing else, and the guard is instructed not to take....then what?!
*Office closed and no ATM obvs!

 

[tsr]

You won't? Have we adopted the euro by stealth or something?

No, but we have adopted cashless buses...

 

[krus_aragon]

I assume Isle Of Man fivers are out of the question....

I got a stern talking-to for accepting one of those in Llandudno some years ago, a shame given that you used to be able to catch a steamer from the pier over to Douglas!

 

[paul1609]

Interesting that you've found that Scottish notes are only 'rarely' accepted in your experience... is this a geographical thing in England? I've lived in Cumbria or North East England my whole life and have encountered Scottish money in circulation periodically (once a year or maybe every other year). I also travel to Scotland for work typically once or twice a year and have never had any trouble using any money back here.

As a teenager I worked in a Lake District tourist attraction and we received a Scottish note most weeks and Irish notes at least once or twice a month - we were alerted of their existence when we started working there and were encouraged to accept them! So they can be got rid of at major tourist attractions. However if it wasn't for that experience I wouldn't be familiar with Irish notes and can imagine that it's very difficult to spend them outside of travel or tourist sites.

Yes it is a geographical thing! down here in Kent you've got more chance of a retailer accepting Euros than Scottish Notes. Im a frequent traveller to Scotland and I usually either keep them for the next trip or get rid of them in the Tesco Auto tills. Even if you find someone that does accept them it will invariably be under protest. Having said that I take a lot of money as a volunteer at the K&ESR and they are vary rare down here in general use.The only non English sterling bank note Ive been offered this year was an Ulster £10 and the owner was apologetic. I get offered Euros all the time.