Scottish Money

[muz379]

Scottish bank notes are not legal tender, even in Scotland. The only legal tender in Scotland is coinage.

Although legal tender doesn't really mean anything in relation to purchasing something in a shop or any other normal retail transaction that takes place .

The meaning of legal tender is a rather technical one to do with the settlement of debts . And if settling a debt with legal tender one must pay with the exact amount because no change can be demanded .

When it comes to retail establishments you approaching the counter with a basket full of goods merely forms an offer to purchase those goods in exchange for cash or credit/debit card depending on the store .

A prime example is gold sovereigns, they are unless it has recently changed classed as legal tender but good luck getting the cashier in your local Tesco to accept those .

 

[Clip]

Its funny munny.

 

[Busaholic]

Its funny munny.

Ur even foney money

 

[me123]

In terms of £50 notes, when I worked at the cafe in my uni SU, the main reason we refused them was the large number of foreign students who would try to use them. If we allowed them, we would have run out of change very very quickly. And while we could have said we'd take them until we couldn't give change, we just wanted to avoid the situation full stop. Of course there was a cash point 10m away which gave out notes in £5, £10 and £20 notes so we just pointed them in the direction of that.

I can't imagine ever wanting to use a £50 in a café anyway. But I find that the excuse doesn't really wash for most transactions. My till at work very quickly filled with twenties that pretty much go nowhere so it was never a problem to break a fifty or even a hundred. (Aside from one woman who bought a copy of The Sun 2 minutes after opening with a £100 note and demanded an English 50 in her change but I can't see why any normal person would do that).

 

[alexf380]

If you don't want them I'd happily take them off your hands!

 

[Butts]

When I'm heading down south I get cash out at Edinburgh or Glasgow Airports, most of the dispensers throw out English Notes.

If people think Scottish Notes are problematic in the rest of the UK try abroad where they are a complete no no

 

[yorksrob]

Well I am sorry but if you are in a job or position where you are taking cash payments, it is up to you to be aware that a Scottish banknote is genuine and perfectly fine to be used in the rest of the UK. If you cannot make yourself aware of that, then you should not be in that job. This is exactly the same argument I had to use against someone on the till in a supermarket who decided my driving licence was fake because it is a Welsh one.

Now of course, a retailer does not have to accent any means of payment. But to suggest simply that a retailer should not accept them because they are not used to them is just silly. The answer is make sure you are used to them.

Agreed. Any employee in any institution in the UK will have any amount of training around any number of things. It's hardly excessive to expect them to learn about the currency of the country.There's no excuse for the different forms of Sterling not to be known throughout the United Kingdom.

 

[WestCoast]

A lot of retailers, especially small ones, won't take £50 notes. I'll only take them from people known to me, with one exception. German tourists are often given £50 notes by their banks in exchange for euros and I have taken them, without adverse effects so far.

It's funny how that came to be really. €50 notes (around £37) are very common in everyday transactions in the Eurozone and are treated as normal like a £20 note. €100 notes are less common but never had one refused or refused to accept one on the occassions I've encountered one. €200 and €500 notes are the ones which encounter more reluctance!

 

[me123]

I think it's at least in part because English £50 notes have, until recently, been relatively easy to counterfeit in comparison to smaller denominations. The Sir John Houblon 50s had no UV ink and no hologram. The genuine notes were often very well worn and very commonly torn across the security threads, in some cases quite dramatically so. They weren't easy to check. By comparison, the new series is more similar to the twenty pound note, and has all the features it does. It doesn't have a hologram, but does have a a very clever "motion thread" that I can imagine being nearly impossible to imitate.

However, the gradual decline in the use of cash isn't helping the fifty either. Lots of transactions over £50 are now done by non-cash methods, and lots of people only use cash for smaller transactions. So there's not perceived to be a need for larger denominations to circulate more widely.

Fifty pounds is not a high denomination, and I think there is a good argument for increasing the circulation of these notes. Fifty pounds a few decades ago was a lot of money, but nowadays it won't cover a typical family's weekly shopping bill. But I don't think there's enough demand to justify it.

I have never had any problems with £50 notes, which I will ask for if for any reason I'm withdrawing a large amount of cash (not very often, unfortunately!). For larger transactions, they are easier to carry around, and I feel safer with a small number of fifties or hundreds than a plethora of twenties. No-one has ever declined a fifty pound note when I've offered it as payment, although I should point out that I use them for reasonable transactions (petrol, shopping, rail tickets etc) and not small things like newspapers, sandwiches or penny sweets.

 

[Y961 XBU]

Spent 2 of my Scottish 20s at my Local Train Station, swapped the 3rd with an English 20 from my Safe :P

 

[92002]

Spent 2 of my Scottish 20s at my Local Train Station, swapped the 3rd with an English 20 from my Safe :P

The Main problem is not Scottish but Northern Irish notes that are used and accepted freely in many parts of Scotland.

Would never try to offer one in England though.

 

[headshot119]

I can't imagine ever wanting to use a £50 in a café anyway. But I find that the excuse doesn't really wash for most transactions. My till at work very quickly filled with twenties that pretty much go nowhere so it was never a problem to break a fifty or even a hundred. (Aside from one woman who bought a copy of The Sun 2 minutes after opening with a £100 note and demanded an English 50 in her change but I can't see why any normal person would do that).

Working in a students union we see a huge amount at the start of the year from foreign students who are given £50 notes when they change there currency. To a lesser extent we see a fair amount after holidays at Christmas and Easter for the same reason. I'm always happy to take them, the tills fill quickly in the morning with smaller notes to give as change.

 

[LowLevel]

As an English train guard it's very obvious at our TOC that we take Scots/Irish notes - they have their own box on the shift sheet !

 

[CC 72100]

Working in a students union we see a huge amount at the start of the year from foreign students who are given £50 notes when they change there currency. To a lesser extent we see a fair amount after holidays at Christmas and Easter for the same reason. .

Also working for the Students' Guild at my uni, I can whole heartedly agree with this.

Saying that, with the average transaction in my place probably being under a £1, we'd rather not have such large amounts!

 

[tsr]

As an English train guard it's very obvious at our TOC that we take Scots/Irish notes - they have their own box on the shift sheet !

Interesting! I wonder how many TOCs ask their guards to separate them out like this? Some certainly don't.

 

[me123]

I suspect it depends on your cash handler. I'm pretty sure when I used to work with cash, our cash office (a separate department in a big supermarket) had to split them by bank for the cash handlers (BoE, Clydesdale, BoS, RBS).

 

[DelayRepay]

When I used to work in the bank, we used to get Scottish and Irish notes paid in or exchanged from time to time.

They had to go in a packet marked "Scottish, Irish and Spoiled" which as the name suggests also contained spoiled notes (dirty, badly torn, held together with tape, been through the wash etc). In a small branch they were a pain because you had to have £1,000 of "Scottish, Irish and spoiled" before you could send them away, so they were hanging around for ages in someone's till.

Interesting fact: Back then, cheques drawn on a Scottish sort code (starting 80) used to take an extra day to clear. This caused some issues for the students, whose loans were all drawn on a Glasgow branch.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

The Northern Irish Plastic Notes are amazing i was collecting them last time i went

I couldnt find the George best Fiver last time i went over bet there a Collectors item now but i already have 3

 

[AnonymousUser1]

IMHO you were lucky. Whilst many large organisations take them, especially travel and transport ones, Scottish and Northern Irish notes are not legal tender.

<snip>

legal tender is irrelevanet to the discussion except perhaps with regard to dining or taxi rides ...

 

[Murph]

legal tender is irrelevanet to the discussion except perhaps with regard to dining or taxi rides ...

It's not even really relevant to those. If you attempt to pay for a service already delivered using a generally valid method, you're demonstrating intent to pay, and more importantly not demonstrating intent to defraud. If the service provider chooses to refuse a generally valid payment method, with no advance notice, it then simply becomes a civil debt, and you are free to leave and settle the debt later, without penalty.

Only later, once it has become an outstanding debt that you are trying to settle, does legal tender become relevant, in that they can not refuse legal tender as a means to settle the debt. Unless it has been made clear, in advance, that only particular forms of payment are acceptable, the negative side of it is almost entirely with the service provider, in that they can either take the notes offered, or turn it into a debt to be dealt with later. There's no real negative side for the consumer, as long as they are not demonstrating intent to defraud. Offering genuine Scottish or Northern Irish notes of an appropriate denomination at the time would almost certainly be seen as a good faith effort to pay.
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I would be interested to know where you got the information above please?

I am not a lawyer, but I studied contract law at university. That's my understanding based on tort law, and the following:

1. No advance notice given that only particular bank notes are acceptable, or that particular notes are unacceptable. (i.e. before service was provided)
2. The notes offered are genuine, of an appropriate denomination, and in reasonable condition. (i.e. you may have difficulty arguing reasonable behaviour if offering a £50 or £100 for a small payment)
3. The notes offered are legal currency, which they are.
4. Legal intent is judged based on the actions and words, so offering a valid and appropriate denomination note as payment demonstrates intent to pay.

There's no scope for any civil penalty if the consumer acts in good faith, as above, just a civil debt established which must be settled later (since efforts to settle it at the time were refused). Demonstrating a clear intent to pay should deal with the criminal side. Obviously the consumer would need to provide their name and address, as part of showing good faith intent to settle the debt later.

 

[Tracked]

I've always either taken them to the bank or used them at petrol stations when I've had some left, never had any issues, was a bit surprised the first time I went to Scotland and they were what came out of the ATM though!!

 

[muz379]

legal tender is irrelevanet to the discussion except perhaps with regard to dining or taxi rides ...

Eating in a restaurant , buying petrol , taking a taxi ride and then not paying could all result in one being guilty of the offence of making off without payment , essentially if you have consumed goods or services and then leave without paying with the intention of avoiding paying .

I think if you went into the petrol station in an attempt to pay for the petrol it would be very difficult to prove that you had intent to avoid paying .

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Eating in a restaurant , buying petrol , taking a taxi ride and then not paying could all result in one being guilty of the offence of making off without payment , essentially if you have consumed goods or services and then leave without paying with the intention of avoiding paying .

I think if you went into the petrol station in an attempt to pay for the petrol it would be very difficult to prove that you had intent to avoid paying .

again legal tender has no relevance to making off ...

most of the time we settle such debts with payments other than legal tender ...

 

[Murph]

Eating in a restaurant , buying petrol , taking a taxi ride and then not paying could all result in one being guilty of the offence of making off without payment , essentially if you have consumed goods or services and then leave without paying with the intention of avoiding paying .

I think if you went into the petrol station in an attempt to pay for the petrol it would be very difficult to prove that you had intent to avoid paying .

Theft Act 1978

3 Making off without payment.

(1) Subject to subsection (3) below, a person who, knowing that payment on the spot for any goods supplied or service done is required or expected from him, dishonestly makes off without having paid as required or expected and with intent to avoid payment of the amount due shall be guilty of an offence.

…

It all comes down to intent, judged by the actions and words (and not the thoughts or actual intentions). If you have clearly offered appropriate denomination bank notes, and they were unexpectedly refused, I really can't see the police or a court interpreting that as "and with intent to avoid payment", especially if you leave your name and address, stating your intention to settle the debt later. That's only if the goods or service have already been supplied, of course, it doesn't give scope to grab the goods and run.

 

[muz379]

I think you have both missed the point I was trying to make. I was saying exactly as you have both just pointed out , if you dispensed the petrol into your car and then entered the shop and offered Scottish notes as payment it would be very difficult to prove you had the intention to avoid paying that would be required for making off without payment . Just like if you dispensed the petrol and went in the shop with a debit card only to find the banks system had gone down and you had no cash on you again it would be difficult to prove intent

 

[Murph]

I think you have both missed the point I was trying to make. I was saying exactly as you have both just pointed out , if you dispensed the petrol into your car and then entered the shop and offered Scottish notes as payment it would be very difficult to prove you had the intention to avoid paying that would be required for making off without payment . Just like if you dispensed the petrol and went in the shop with a debit card only to find the banks system had gone down and you had no cash on you again it would be difficult to prove intent

Not so much missing it, as expanding on it, quoting the precise legislation.

 

[me123]

It all comes down to intent, judged by the actions and words (and not the thoughts or actual intentions). If you have clearly offered appropriate denomination bank notes, and they were unexpectedly refused, I really can't see the police or a court interpreting that as "and with intent to avoid payment", especially if you leave your name and address, stating your intention to settle the debt later. That's only if the goods or service have already been supplied, of course, it doesn't give scope to grab the goods and run.

That's pretty much how it works in the real world.

I used to work in a petrol station, and as such we did occasionally have payment issues.

Most commonly, we had people who could not pay for their fuel and came into the shop. Commonly, they had no cash on them, their card was declined, their card was invalid (they need to be signed, people!), or they tendered counterfeit currency/not legal currency. For PFSs in England that refuse to accept Scottish notes, this is probably the path they'd take too. We would take the customer's details and the onus would be on them to return within a week (often they returned in a matter of hours because, again, most people are genuine and are embarrassed when something like this happens!). After the week, we'd send the heavies round. What's important here is that the consumer has made an attempt to pay, and we would struggle to prove that this theft of fuel.

We occasionally had "drive offs", where a person fuels up and drives away without paying. In the majority of cases, people would come back on their own accord looking very embarrassed and apologising repeatedly when they realised their error! For that reason, we didn't inform the polis immediately, as quite a lot of the time they'd track the owner down and they'd claim to have simply forgotten, in which case we generally just accepted payment and an apology. Of course, some of these people may not have been genuine mistakes, but we hadn't been able to prove intent, and ultimately the onus is on us to prove intent. Of course, with a drive off, the customer has not made effort to pay, so they're in a difficult legal position. But more often than not, we found that these customers appeared genuine and as long as payment was offered all was fine (although a lot of my former colleagues had to give evidence on court, so I know that there were plenty of cases where we prosecuted).

 

[Mojo]

Bizarre experience in a cafe a few hours ago. Thought I'd treat myself to a breakfast, which was very tasty. Went to pay and it came to £5.40.

Now I very rarely pay for things in cash, as it feels like I'm throwing money away, but I always carry a small amount for shops that don't take it, or for when there's a problem. As they don't take cards, I offered the lady an Ulster Bank £10 note and she asked other colleagues, who looked equally as confused.

She asked me if I had anything else, and I showed an ordinary £5 note. She said that she would rather take that than the £10 I had previously offered, despite the bill coming to more than £5.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Oh please tell us where we can enjoy a good breakfast for almost 8% off when paying in English cash!