Scottish Independence

[Bletchleyite]

To influence the goings on? The point is that it's a closed shop. Another example is the Brexit negotiations where the UK is taking decisions in devolved areas with no consultation. Short of federalism, there is no solution to this.

In my view federalism is the solution. London as a city-state capital of the Union, with an English capital elsewhere e.g. Brum.

We aren't far off it now, why not just do it properly? It would save the Union.

 

[Meerkat]

The plan for Brexit AIUI is to repatriate the powers in delegated areas to UKG then redelegate them.

 

[Meerkat]

In my view federalism is the solution. London as a city-state capital of the Union, with an English capital elsewhere e.g. Brum.

We aren't far off it now, why not just do it properly? It would save the Union.

That would be very risky as it would highlight where the money is made and where it is spent.
I totally support more devolved powers but got to be careful where it leads.

 

[Struner]

The plan for Brexit AIUI is to repatriate the powers in delegated areas to UKG then redelegate them.

Aah, there is a plan...

 

[Struner]

In my view federalism is the solution. London as a city-state capital of the Union, with an English capital elsewhere e.g. Brum.

We aren't far off it now, why not just do it properly? It would save the Union.

So the precious union should be saved?

 

[najaB]

There is no practical alternative for the Brexit negotiation with the EU. Having Scottish reps in there would be a farce.

And there, ladies and gentlemen, is the reason that Scottish independence is back on the table.

 

[najaB]

So the precious union should be saved?

Personally, I think it should be since the nations have more potential together than apart. But there needs to be respect between the constituent governments.

 

[Meerkat]

And there, ladies and gentlemen, is the reason that Scottish independence is back on the table.

How so?

 

[najaB]

How so?

The idea that having any Scottish representation at the Brexit negotiations is "a farce". Lack of representation is the reason that the 13 Colonies declared their independence from Great Britain.

 

[Meerkat]

The idea that having any Scottish representation at the Brexit negotiations is "a farce". Lack of representation is the reason that the 13 Colonies declared their independence from Great Britain.

There won’t be a representative of London either - a much more populous area.
It’s a UK v EU negotiation. You have one position in there. The Scots should get a say in what the UK position is going into the room, but that isn’t really practical for the things they want.

Having a Scottish rep in the actual negotiation would be like sending two salesmen to a bid negotiation, one of whom wants to pay more than the boss has instructed

 

[Highland37]

Personally, I think it should be since the nations have more potential together than apart. But there needs to be respect between the constituent governments.

I agree but there is no "apart". No one is going anywhere.

Much as I see the merit of federalism, it is not an option in the UK. Apart from the Lib Dems, who have no influence, there are few advocates of it.

 

[Highland37]

There won’t be a representative of London either - a much more populous area.
It’s a UK v EU negotiation. You have one position in there. The Scots should get a say in what the UK position is going into the room, but that isn’t really practical for the things they want.

Having a Scottish rep in the actual negotiation would be like sending two salesmen to a bid negotiation, one of whom wants to pay more than the boss has instructed

So how does Scotland get representation if the UK won't represent it?

 

[Meerkat]

So how does Scotland get representation if the UK won't represent it?

It is represented within the UK.

 

[Highland37]

It is represented within the UK.

It isn't. The UK Government has completely ignored the Scottish Government's position on Brexit and many other areas. Drugs consumption rooms being one random example.

There is no way within the "union" to take forward those representations when one part can ignore the other and there is no structure, membership terms or any other way to gain representation.

 

[Meerkat]

It isn't. The UK Government has completely ignored the Scottish Government's position on Brexit and many other areas. Drugs consumption rooms being one random example.

There is no way within the "union" to take forward those representations when one part can ignore the other and there is no structure, membership terms or any other way to gain representation.

You understand how UKG cant change fundamental positions on Brexit for the minority right? It just isn’t possible.
That’s not to say more things couldn’t and shouldn’t be devolved, and I would hope that as many as possible of the powers reclaimed from Brussels are devolved, on a ‘presumption to devolve’ basis.
However you have to recognise that devolution was on the basis of high level powers being at the EU, so you can’t just say X is devolved therefore all EU powers associated with X must be devolved.

 

[Highland37]

Yes I do and that very well illustrates that on these fundamental issues, the Union doesn't work for Scotland. It is simply ignored. There is no solution other than putting up with being ignored and people suffering the loss or rights or access to things like the EU or independence.

You might well hope that powers returned from Brussels, which were devolved to the EU, from the UK, will be devolved but the UK has not indicated that in any shape or form. It has ridden rough-shod over it's own legislation.

 

[edwin_m]

On the question of Scotland-EU trade an arrangement of sealed containers could be set up for transit through England. This is a well-established principle and Ireland will need to employ it unless they ferry all their goods directly to/from the Continent.

 

[Camden]

On the question of Scotland-EU trade an arrangement of sealed containers could be set up for transit through England. This is a well-established principle and Ireland will need to employ it unless they ferry all their goods directly to/from the Continent.

Assuming the UK agreed to such a thing, that is. There would be no incentive for it to offer up its infrastructure to facilitate the competition. Much better to exploit its position to place its own goods at a cost advantage.

Remains to be seen what happens with Ireland, once the UK really leaves the EU at the end of the year. As all legislation falls back to pre-EEC days, in theory that leaves the UK and Ireland with their pre-dating and continuing Common Travel Area.

The UK could simply allow Irish migration and goods flows as before, and welcoming/requiring Ireland to reciprocate. If that conflicted with their EU masters, that would then be for them to seek derogation or end the CTA agreement.

 

[Highland37]

The UK won't permit a Scotland specific trade arrangement. It's already been clear on that and Scotland has no international powers so can't enter into trade arrangements with sovereign nations.

 

[Enthusiast]

The UK Government has completely ignored the Scottish Government's position on Brexit

That's scarcely surprising is it? The Scottish government's position on Brexit was that it would rather it didn't happen. Such a position could not be accommodated.

the Union doesn't work for Scotland.

I suppose it depends on how you interpret "He who pays the piper calls the tune".

 

[najaB]

The Scottish government's position on Brexit was that it would rather it didn't happen. Such a position could not be accommodated.

That was the UK Government's position as well, yet here we are.

 

[Highland37]

That's scarcely surprising is it? The Scottish government's position on Brexit was that it would rather it didn't happen. Such a position could not be accommodated.

I suppose it depends on how you interpret "He who pays the piper calls the tune".

No it doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Those with their eyes open could see this coming years ago. The quandary is for the uber unionists like Gordon Brown or Ruth Davidson who can't address or even face up to this reality. All they can do is deny it and attack those with a plan. They are the equivalent of climate change deniers.

 

[Meerkat]

All they can do is deny it and attack those with a plan. They are the equivalent of climate change deniers.

What?! You are going to need to explain that!

 

[Highland37]

What?! You are going to need to explain that!

Whilst the majority disagree with those who favour independence, no one can deny that those people have a plan to address the issues they are mentioning. E.g on Brexit, Scotland voted to stay in the EU. That cannot be done as part of the UK as there is no system to recognise different parts of the UK voting in different ways. Only sovereign nations can become members of the EU or other international organisations such as the WTO or UN, etc. So if someone wants Scotland to be in the EU and values that above the UK which prevents them doing so, the choice is very clear.

The case for the Union would be much stronger if Unionists could recognise that Scotland voted remain and has been taken out against its will but despite that, there are many positive reasons to no disband the Union.

 

[najaB]

The case for the Union would be much stronger if Unionists could recognise that Scotland voted remain and has been taken out against its will...

Or, at the very least, publicly acknowledge this fact. Very few (if any) Brexit favouring politicos of power have done so as anything other than a passing remark.

 

[najaB]

I suppose it depends on how you interpret "He who pays the piper calls the tune".

And the case for Scottish independence gets stronger yet again.

 

[Highland37]

Or, at the very least, publicly acknowledge this fact. Very few (if any) Brexit favouring politicos of power have done so as anything other than a passing remark.

Yes. It's the sign of immature and poor quality politics which plagues the UK. The Yes campaign is equally as bad as there are those who refuse to recognise that the rise in support for independence is due to the Leave vote in the UK. This is because they want to be out the EU and independent but aren't understanding that in a conservative country like Scotland, people don't do massive changes in bulk.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I'm not quite sure what the solution is here. The majority in Scotland voted to remain, I get that. Sturgeon came up with her own Brexit plans which was to remain in the Customs Union and Single Market. Now call me a cynic but I'm sure she came up with this plan because a. she knew that England dosen't want to be part of the customs union and single market so, knowing that her plan would be rejected, she could throw her hands up and say "well I tried, they won't listen, time to go Scotland" and B, remaining in the SM and CM makes Scottish Independence easier without the threat of a border with England. I agree that there is an onus on the Government to make sure that Brexit is either a success or at least not a crushing faliure to appease places that voted remain and stave off calls for a second referendum within 10 years.

And anyway, this issue goes beyond Brexit. It was the SNP who won Holyrood in 2011, five years before the vote! Whatever has led to this rift between England and Scotland must have occurred sometime between 1987 (the last election where the Conservatives had many seats in Scotland) and 2010. The SNP was rising in Holyrood elections all through the 2000s, so in the grand scheme of things, I don't think Brexit is that important to the Scottish Nationalism debate, but it's certainly a factor. Personally, I believe that whatever caused Scottish nationalism to rise is the same reason that caused Brexit. A feeling of disentachment with the Party political system, but living in a long era from 1979 to erm, now, where the oppissition is not a credible choice so the only alternative is to keep relecting the same party for long, long years. Therefore, there's been a lack of intelectual diversity in Britain for a generation-producing the same dissapointment, only in power because the alternative is unthinkable. The English and the Scots are clearly both fed up! You could argue therefore, that maybe Scotland and England should become their own countries, but that suggests that the socio-political disenchantment in this country is directly because of the existence of the Anglo-Scottish political union. Which it isn't. The problem is that the political system prizes political dogma over truly understanding the country outside its own political circles.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Whilst the majority disagree with those who favour independence, no one can deny that those people have a plan to address the issues they are mentioning. E.g on Brexit, Scotland voted to stay in the EU. That cannot be done as part of the UK as there is no system to recognise different parts of the UK voting in different ways. Only sovereign nations can become members of the EU or other international organisations such as the WTO or UN, etc. So if someone wants Scotland to be in the EU and values that above the UK which prevents them doing so, the choice is very clear.

The case for the Union would be much stronger if Unionists could recognise that Scotland voted remain and has been taken out against its will but despite that, there are many positive reasons to no disband the Union.

For someone that has this view, your going to hate being back in the EU then.

 

[Highland37]

Why? I was fairly happy with the way things were re the EU. Latvia can engage in many things Scotland can't. Independence is way bigger than the issues I am mentioning here. As an ex social worker, I can't see why Scotland should not have the power to set up consumption rooms but Westminster blocks it. There is no merit in that.