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Scottish Independence

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Meerkat

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The population is about as close as you can get. They have a much more remote population as the country is bigger as you say which means they are carry higher costs, but somehow manage to provide amazing infrastructure, better services and so on.

It might not be a good comparison for you, but I can guarantee that there are thousands making that comparison. And that's before anyone thinks about distribution of wealth, social capital, poverty etc. I used to be a social worker in Glasgow and have lived in Denmark and Norway. I can tell you very clearly that the UK, inc Scotland, is so far behind both countries that it is hardly worth mentioning in the same sentence.
The population of Norway is only now catching Scotland after being significantly lower for hundreds of years of wealth accumulation.
Thats why I am challenging it! Thousands of people are incorrectly comparing Scotland to Norway just because of oil and a now similar population. They also make out the Sovereign Wealth fund has been going forever but actually only started as Norway’s production started to massively increase.
It would be just as easy to blame Scotland’s terrible health habits as an alleged squandering of oil wealth by Westminster.
 
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Highland37

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You will have to accept that many people think you are wrong. There is no such thing as an incorrect comparison. Many people are comparing Norway to Scotland regardless of how wrong others might think that may be.
 

Meerkat

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OK - invalid, unhelpful comparison!
Many people think all sorts of incorrect things ;) and that’s why I jump on the Norway thing every time it is brought up, especially as it is significant in the ‘Scotland’s problems were all caused by Westminster’ mythology, and a dangerous “we will be fine after independence - look at Norway!”
In case you think I am just anti Scottish - I don’t want Scotland to leave but don’t see why Scotland can’t prosper long term on its own........but the adjustment period will be very ugly.
 

Highland37

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No one is suggesting Scotlands problems are caused by Westminster. I would suggest the inability to self govern is the main issue.

There is no "leaving" as there are no terms of membership.
 

edwin_m

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No one is suggesting Scotlands problems are caused by Westminster. I would suggest the inability to self govern is the main issue.
I was under the impression I was suggesting exactly that a couple of pages ago. Whether it's by implementing policies that disadvantage Scotland or by not granting Scotland enough freedom to do something else instead.
 
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Meerkat

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No one is suggesting Scotlands problems are caused by Westminster. I would suggest the inability to self govern is the main issue.
That is effectively the same thing - unless you are saying Westminster did it wrong then self governing wouldn’t improve anything economically.
 

Sad Sprinter

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I don’t understand the argument that the lack of self-determination is what’s holding Scotland back. What policies will Scotland want to enact in cannot enact under devolved government? What polices would Scotland want to enact which in theory could benefit the whole of the UK?
 

Highland37

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I don’t understand the argument that the lack of self-determination is what’s holding Scotland back. What policies will Scotland want to enact in cannot enact under devolved government? What polices would Scotland want to enact which in theory could benefit the whole of the UK?

You can find out a lot more here: https://www.parliament.scot/visitandlearn/Education/18642.aspx

Benefits is a good example where there has been a consistent majority against universal credit. Defence is another one with no majority in Scotland for Trident or its replacement. Then there are foreign affairs such as membership of the EU. You could also consider immigration where Scotland and England do not coincide.
 

GusB

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You can find out a lot more here: https://www.parliament.scot/visitandlearn/Education/18642.aspx

Benefits is a good example where there has been a consistent majority against universal credit. Defence is another one with no majority in Scotland for Trident or its replacement. Then there are foreign affairs such as membership of the EU. You could also consider immigration where Scotland and England do not coincide.
Agreed. Immigration is one issue where UK policy doesn't suit Scotland. We rely on people from overseas to staff our hotels, hostels and tourist attractions. Agriculture and our fruit producers rely on immigrant workers as well. The low-paid and seasonal nature of this work means that it's difficult to get locals to do the jobs, and quite often there aren't enough locals to do the work in the first place, particularly in remote locations.

Many of the jobs in our food factories - Walker's and Baxter's, to mention two local examples - are done by immigrants, again because there aren't enough local people to fill the vacancies. Much of this production is also seasonal.
 

Sad Sprinter

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You can find out a lot more here: https://www.parliament.scot/visitandlearn/Education/18642.aspx

Benefits is a good example where there has been a consistent majority against universal credit. Defence is another one with no majority in Scotland for Trident or its replacement. Then there are foreign affairs such as membership of the EU. You could also consider immigration where Scotland and England do not coincide.

I think the examples here show the problems in which the particular style of devolution offered to Scotland generates. Devolution did not, as it should have, allowed other areas outisde of the HOC to influence government policy. It does in theory, with a First Minister who can technically advocate for Scottish interests, but what the present form of devolution does is seperate Scotland from the rest of the country. With the UK government, still their own government but also technically England's government, presiding over Scotland. This can be balanced by giving an English parliament and thus balancing the UK government equally amongst the whole country, or a more constitutionally radical alternative like splitting the HOC between London and Edinburgh. But having London and Holyrood compete for Scottish attention/following is no way to foster a sense of belonging for Scotland in the UK.

Also your points essentially back up my point that the differences between Scotland and England are largely illusionary. Universal credit here in England has been severely criticised too. This is a politcal issue, not a constitutional or communitarian one. Immigration has solutions, as I am sure London's burgeoning economy would support a more flexible immigration system. Perhaps regional visas are the answer, but the present government are uninterested in the idea. London is also a city with a metropolitan area of 10-12 million people which roughly, is more in line with Scottish values than the rest of England, which suggests again, that Scotland is not so alone in the UK that it, in my opinion, is being presented to it by the SNP.

Trident and the EU is tricky. The UK is a nation of 66 million. Without a nuclear detterent, its still a potentially formidable millitary power to a potential nuclear armed aggressor and would be all the more likely target considering it has no retaliation capability. Unless the Scots just don't want it in Scotland on moral grounds, but are lax to its relocation to England/Wales? And the EU? Well I'm a eurosceptic and don't see any real problem with leaving the EU-in theory. However, I did vote remain in the end, partly because of the Northern Ireland/Scottish nationalism issue. That said, if there was a second referendum, I would follow my heart and vote Leave, because I think the argument given to Scotland in 2014, "vote to stay with the UK and stay in the EU" was an awful argument, because it essentially acknowledges that a common British sense of belonging is dead, and the only viable justification of a British nationality is as a ticket to a European identity. In theory, the sense of belonging in being part of Britain should be strong enough to outweigh venturing alone into the EU. And I think the emotional/psychological case of the unity of Britons (Scots/English/Welsh) over continental Europe, is not being sufficently made by Unionists arguments.
 

Highland37

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I don't agree and I can see little case for a Union where one member, through weight of population, can decide what happens to another. I agree that the differences between Scotland and England are not huge but they are there. The differences between England and France are not huge either but the latter is a sovereign state.

Fundamentally why do you think Scotland should not have a say over its future? That is the position of the UK Government. They are against Scotland being in the EU and don't want the question asked. That isn't sustainable.

Lastly, I'd argue that Unionism is nationalism - British Nationalism (no not the BNP type).
 

Butts

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You will have to accept that many people think you are wrong. There is no such thing as an incorrect comparison. Many people are comparing Norway to Scotland regardless of how wrong others might think that may be.

So as Norway is not in the EU how does that play out for you ? - I assume (perhaps incorrectly) you are in favour of Scotland remaining in or rejoining the "club"
 

Highland37

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Fairly well. The point is that Norway can, and has, decided. So did Scotland but due to the Union, was unable to implement the decision.
 

Highland37

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Wonder how an independent Scotland would be doing now with the current oil prices.

It wouldn't make a huge difference as the economy is not underpinned by income from oil or the oil price. Scotland is by far the most sustainable part of the UK in terms of energy inc oil, despite the lowest level of subsidy.

It would most likely be a member of the EU also thus in the biggest trading bloc in the world. The isolationalist position at Westminster doesn't hold much hope.

But thinking it from a Unionist point of view (oil is the underpinning part of the Scottish economy and it's best to"stick together"), why would any British person want to live with eternal subsidy as the Brits do?
 

Meerkat

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It would most likely be a member of the EU also thus in the biggest trading bloc in the world. The isolationalist position at Westminster doesn't hold much hope.
Less than a fifth of exports go to the EU, 60% go to the UK - so that’s not a winning proposal.
 

Highland37

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Less than a fifth of exports go to the EU, 60% go to the UK - so that’s not a winning proposal.

Yes and is it a choice between the two? Would the rUK be so isolated that it wouldn't trade with Scotland and the EU as it's going to be in a sorry state if that is the case. The basis for your choice is entirely false.
 

Meerkat

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Yes and is it a choice between the two? Would the rUK be so isolated that it wouldn't trade with Scotland and the EU as it's going to be in a sorry state if that is the case. The basis for your choice is entirely false.
Depends whether having open trade with the EU and rUK is possible. If not then a bit more trade with the EU (but not driven through England) probably wouldn’t compensate for the reduction in trade with England.
 

Highland37

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Depends whether having open trade with the EU and rUK is possible. If not then a bit more trade with the EU (but not driven through England) probably wouldn’t compensate for the reduction in trade with England.

EU trade can't driven through England as it's not a member and has decided to leave. Given that the UK has already committed to free trade with the EU there is no substance to the argument that Scotland alone, which by far possesses the biggest asset base (on which borrowing is based), would be singled out for non-trade.

If there are border controls in Great Britain, as there will be in Ireland probably, I am perfectly happy with that. England would be so isolated if it refuses to trade with an EU Scotland, and the rest of the EU by extension, that it would quickly move lower down the scale of world relevance. In short, isolationism in the 21st century is not a good strategy.
 

Meerkat

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EU trade can't driven through England as it's not a member and has decided to leave. Given that the UK has already committed to free trade with the EU there is no substance to the argument that Scotland alone, which by far possesses the biggest asset base (on which borrowing is based), would be singled out for non-trade.

If there are border controls in Great Britain, as there will be in Ireland probably, I am perfectly happy with that. England would be so isolated if it refuses to trade with an EU Scotland, and the rest of the EU by extension, that it would quickly move lower down the scale of world relevance. In short, isolationism in the 21st century is not a good strategy.
The UK hasn't committed to free trade with the EU - that’s just talk as it would involve accepting FoM.
Scotland would have a huge issue if border controls were needed. A fair amount of business would just move south of the border, and the extra costs for all the stuff that comes in from Europe via the Midlands distribution centres etc.
 

Highland37

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I think it will come to accepting that as the issue can't be resolved based on the UK's position which wants incompatible things.

It might have increased costs ("huge" is subjective and I would argue both Crossrail and HS2 are even huger to Scotland) but democracy trumps that. We voted to stay in the EU and can't because of the UK.
 

Meerkat

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I think it will come to accepting that as the issue can't be resolved based on the UK's position which wants incompatible things.

It might have increased costs ("huge" is subjective and I would argue both Crossrail and HS2 are even huger to Scotland) but democracy trumps that. We voted to stay in the EU and can't because of the UK.
I just can’t see FoM being accepted, but that’s for another thread!
i don’t think the Remain vote within the UK means a rejoin vote outside the UK, particularly if that involves severe restrictions on the border/trade etc.
 

Highland37

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Me neither. We can only deal with what is in front of us and hypothesise on the rest. That's why statements about the future are just predictions. No one knows what will happen. Having the most control possible, whilst ceding some where appropriate, is best I think.
 

Highland37

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A good example of the "respect agenda", or not, is the SAGE group at Westminster. Why are Scottish and Welsh ministers not given attendance rights? Health, the most important and difficult portfolio, is devolved.
 

Meerkat

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A good example of the "respect agenda", or not, is the SAGE group at Westminster. Why are Scottish and Welsh ministers not given attendance rights? Health, the most important and difficult portfolio, is devolved.
AIUI no ministers attend, so why would Scottish and Welsh ones?
 

Highland37

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To influence the goings on? The point is that it's a closed shop. Another example is the Brexit negotiations where the UK is taking decisions in devolved areas with no consultation. Short of federalism, there is no solution to this.
 

Meerkat

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To influence the goings on? The point is that it's a closed shop. Another example is the Brexit negotiations where the UK is taking decisions in devolved areas with no consultation. Short of federalism, there is no solution to this.
You totally miss the point of SAGE - there aren’t supposed to be politicians in there influencing them, hence the fuss about Cummings’ presence.
There is no practical alternative for the Brexit negotiation with the EU. Having Scottish reps in there would be a farce.
 

Highland37

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Maybe I have chosen a bad example re SAGE.

I don't think a "union" can survive if it's a farce for representation from one part of it. That is a union in name only.
 
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