Scottish Independence

[Sad Sprinter]

Never is a long time...

It's unlikely in the near future though, I agree.

Any thoughts from a Scottish perspective if Labour could ever make a comeback in Scotland?

 

[najaB]

Any thoughts from a Scottish perspective if Labour could ever make a comeback in Scotland?

I think it depends on who ends up being the leader of the UK-wide party, and the direction they set for Labour. Saint Jeremey really isn't loved up here.

Momentum Labour is no more electable north of the border than they are south of it.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I think it depends on who ends up being the leader of the UK-wide party, and the direction they set for Labour. Saint Jeremey really isn't loved up here.

Momentum Labour is no more electable north of the border than they are south of it.

Thoughts on Starmer?

 

[d9009alycidon]

Any thoughts from a Scottish perspective if Labour could ever make a comeback in Scotland?

Possibly the only chance that Labour have of getting back into power in Scotland would be to make a clean break from the UK Labour party, and also to elect a leader that is a figurehead, I couldn't honestly tell you off hand who the leader of Labour in Holyrood is. Corben and Co are seen as Losers and the SNP have become the centre left party in Scotland, for the forseeable future Labour will wallow in third place or worse

 

[GusB]

I've just had a look through the Wikipedia pages for UK general elections (GE) from 1997 to 2015. The northern half of the country has remained yellow/orange fairly consistently throughout, with pockets of red in places like Aberdeen and Dundee. The Western Isles and Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber constituencies were also Labour held for a time, but lost in 2005 (there was a boundary change for the latter, so cannot be compared directly). The southern half has been mainly red throughout, with the usual exceptions in Dumfries and Galloway, Borders and more affluent urban areas - until the wipeout of 2015, that is (compare the maps)

I think there are a few factors affecting the decline of Labour in Scotland over the last couple of decades:
- 2005 was the first GE after we went to war in Iraq and Afghanistan
- Increasing support for independence in places, and the Labour Party's complete opposition to it - a significant number of Labour voters would have been in favour of independence and the Labour party no longer catered to these voters.
- SNP being in government at Holyrood along with policies like free prescriptions and scrapping tuition fees
- Tory/Libdem austerity from 2010, with Labour failing to effectively oppose some of the measures taken
- Labour took it for granted that they'd hold onto certain seats and got a kicking for it, and clearly didn't learn from that given the recent drubbing they got in the north of England.

Possibly the only chance that Labour have of getting back into power in Scotland would be to make a clean break from the UK Labour party, and also to elect a leader that is a figurehead, I couldn't honestly tell you off hand who the leader of Labour in Holyrood is. Corben and Co are seen as Losers and the SNP have become the centre left party in Scotland, for the forseeable future Labour will wallow in third place or worse

I would agree with this. I don't think Richard Leonard, the current Labour leader at Holyrood, is very good and seems a bit wishy-washy. I don't think they've had any strong leaders since Jack McConnell, to be honest. As long as policy in Scotland is dictated by the UK Labour party, I don't think they're going to get very far, especially not with Corbyn at the helm. They also need to accept the fact that there is some desire for independence - perhaps if and when there is another referendum on the subject, they'd be better off taking a neutral stance.

I voted Labour in 1997 and perhaps 2001 (it's getting a bit hazy), but I don't feel they've represented my views since, and I've voted accordingly.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I've just had a look through the Wikipedia pages for UK general elections (GE) from 1997 to 2015. The northern half of the country has remained yellow/orange fairly consistently throughout, with pockets of red in places like Aberdeen and Dundee. The Western Isles and Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber constituencies were also Labour held for a time, but lost in 2005 (there was a boundary change for the latter, so cannot be compared directly). The southern half has been mainly red throughout, with the usual exceptions in Dumfries and Galloway, Borders and more affluent urban areas - until the wipeout of 2015, that is (compare the maps)

I think there are a few factors affecting the decline of Labour in Scotland over the last couple of decades:
- 2005 was the first GE after we went to war in Iraq and Afghanistan
- Increasing support for independence in places, and the Labour Party's complete opposition to it - a significant number of Labour voters would have been in favour of independence and the Labour party no longer catered to these voters.
- SNP being in government at Holyrood along with policies like free prescriptions and scrapping tuition fees
- Tory/Libdem austerity from 2010, with Labour failing to effectively oppose some of the measures taken
- Labour took it for granted that they'd hold onto certain seats and got a kicking for it, and clearly didn't learn from that given the recent drubbing they got in the north of England.


I would agree with this. I don't think Richard Leonard, the current Labour leader at Holyrood, is very good and seems a bit wishy-washy. I don't think they've had any strong leaders since Jack McConnell, to be honest. As long as policy in Scotland is dictated by the UK Labour party, I don't think they're going to get very far, especially not with Corbyn at the helm. They also need to accept the fact that there is some desire for independence - perhaps if and when there is another referendum on the subject, they'd be better off taking a neutral stance.

I voted Labour in 1997 and perhaps 2001 (it's getting a bit hazy), but I don't feel they've represented my views since, and I've voted accordingly.

What are your views? If you don't mind me asking.

 

[GusB]

What are your views? If you don't mind me asking.

I voted Yes in the Indyref, although I was a relatively recent convert. I, probably like many others, wasn't convinced that we could make it as an independent nation, but in few years running up to the referendum I began to change my mind. I'd vote the same way again.

 

[najaB]

I voted Yes in the Indyref, although I was a relatively recent convert. I, probably like many others, wasn't convinced that we could make it as an independent nation, but in few years running up to the referendum I began to change my mind. I'd vote the same way again.

I voted no. However, I have no idea which was would vote by the time a second Indyref rolled around.

 

[Gooner18]

I never fully understand Scottish independence and how SNP go on about brexit to me they are exactly the same thing

 

[Bletchleyite]

TBH this, like Brexit, needs kicking into the long grass for a few years. It can come back when society is normalised again.

 

[ABB125]

I never fully understand Scottish independence and how SNP go on about brexit to me they are exactly the same thing

Indeed.
We absolutely must leave a union of countries established for centuries, as it doesn't look out for our best interests.
But we absolutely cannot leave a much newer union that always has our best interests at heart. (I'm not sure about that!)

 

[edwin_m]

Smaller countries like Ireland have prospered as EU members so give reassurance (rightly or wrongly) that an independent Scotland can do the same. Many Scots loathe the idea of rule from London, particularly when those rulers are Tories who give no sign of caring about Scotland and pursue policies that are directly counter to the will of the Scottish people. By bringing countries towards a common European norm the EU is seen as a restraining influence on London.

A more relevant question is why the Tories want to bring power back from Europe to Westminster but are historically unwilling to pass it down from Westminster to the nations and regions.

 

[Gooner18]

But Scotland have a lot of powers devolved to them , NHS, policing, taxes and many more that the Scottish government don’t use, certainly they will be laws and other stuff that might come in that Scotland don’t want or indeed may not be in their interests, again you can align that with the U.K. and EU debate.
Yet the SNP want to break away from its biggest trading partner , their biggest financial supporter etc. They think that can “ have their cake and eat it “ sound familiar?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Smaller countries like Ireland have prospered as EU members so give reassurance (rightly or wrongly) that an independent Scotland can do the same. Many Scots loathe the idea of rule from London, particularly when those rulers are Tories who give no sign of caring about Scotland and pursue policies that are directly counter to the will of the Scottish people. By bringing countries towards a common European norm the EU is seen as a restraining influence on London.

A more relevant question is why the Tories want to bring power back from Europe to Westminster but are historically unwilling to pass it down from Westminster to the nations and regions.

Ireland also suffered horribly in the Eurozone crisis ten years ago and has enjoyed incredibly low corporation tax-something a seperated Scotland probably couldn't afford to do.

Many English loathe the idea of rule from London. Also its not "rule", but governance. Small changes in wording like that go a long way in fuelling Scottish nationalism. But yes I do agree that there is too much centralisation of government in London for the whole of Britain.

Also, I honestly don't see why the fact the Tories are currently in power is enough motive for destroying the United Kingdom. The Tories are in power largely because the Labour Party have been so impotent the last 10 years. London is no longer the Tory city that it once was and is now largely a Labour city, but that doesn't mean London shouldn't break away and form its own state. It's tiring when I hear Scottish nationalists use the argument that the 2019 GE general election shows how reactionary and incompatible England and Scotland is, when many people south of the border felt that for the first time in their lives they literally couldn't vote for the party-Labour, that defines their communities.

To answer your last question, it is indeed an interesting question. I would say it's because the English like centralisation. But even so, the Tories have been devolving more power to regions over the last few years. More powers should follow for the "metro-mayors", though.

Your right, we do need a restraining influence on London. I just don't think seperation and Brussels are the answer.

 

[edwin_m]

Ireland also suffered horribly in the Eurozone crisis ten years ago and has enjoyed incredibly low corporation tax-something a seperated Scotland probably couldn't afford to do.

Many English loathe the idea of rule from London. Also its not "rule", but governance. Small changes in wording like that go a long way in fuelling Scottish nationalism. But yes I do agree that there is too much centralisation of government in London for the whole of Britain.

Also, I honestly don't see why the fact the Tories are currently in power is enough motive for destroying the United Kingdom. The Tories are in power largely because the Labour Party have been so impotent the last 10 years. London is no longer the Tory city that it once was and is now largely a Labour city, but that doesn't mean London shouldn't break away and form its own state. It's tiring when I hear Scottish nationalists use the argument that the 2019 GE general election shows how reactionary and incompatible England and Scotland is, when many people south of the border felt that for the first time in their lives they literally couldn't vote for the party-Labour, that defines their communities.

To answer your last question, it is indeed an interesting question. I would say it's because the English like centralisation. But even so, the Tories have been devolving more power to regions over the last few years. More powers should follow for the "metro-mayors", though.

Your right, we do need a restraining influence on London. I just don't think seperation and Brussels are the answer.

I agree with a lot of that. My point about the view of London in Scotland was more about the perception than the reality though, and how it can be manipulated by those that wish to do so. The same is true about the view of Brussels in England.

 

[najaB]

I never fully understand Scottish independence and how SNP go on about brexit to me they are exactly the same thing

They are similar, but there are a few differences. With the caveat that I'm an adopted rather than native Scot, this is the way I see it.

The main difference is that for a long time there was an actual and justifiable greivance over how equal the parts of the British Union actally were. Think of the North/South divide in England, but turned up to 11. The case and desire for independence was probably strongest in the early part of the 20th Century but, to my mind at least, after WW2 was a settled question until the double-whammy of North Sea oil and the Thatcher-era economic reforms.

These were, rightly or wrongly, both seen as impacting Scotland to the benefit of England, and created a whole new generation of Scottish Nationalists.

Again, the damage to the relationship between the two parts of the Union was largely repaired by the Devolution process, which is why in the 1999 election the Nationalists were soundly beaten by the Unionist parties. The growth in SNP support has been as much about the Unionist parties seeming out of touch with the Scottish population as it has been about genuine desire for independence. One of my former co-workers summed up his 'Yes' vote in the 2014 referendum as "Well, it can't be much worse than what we've got already."

Similarly, most people I know accepted the result of IndyRef and weren't agitating for a re-run... Until the 2016 Brexit referendum where there was a very marked divergence between the "Will of the People" north and south of the border. Now, naturally there's no practical way that the UK could be both in and out of the EU (let's ignore Northern Ireland for now (the UK Government is good at it so why can't we be?)), so again people accepted that the result was what it was, but we depend on frictionless trade with the EU moreso than most of England does, and will be disproptionately affected by a hard Brexit which, as far as anyone can tell, is exactly what the UK Government (especially under Alex Johnson) seems to be trying its best to achieve.

So, the TL;DR version is: recent support for Scottish Independence is reactive and reluctant, where most support for Brexit seems to be driven largely by jingoism.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I agree with a lot of that. My point about the view of London in Scotland was more about the perception than the reality though, and how it can be manipulated by those that wish to do so. The same is true about the view of Brussels in England.

Agreed.

They are similar, but there are a few differences. With the caveat that I'm an adopted rather than native Scot, this is the way I see it.

The main difference is that for a long time there was an actual and justifiable greivance over how equal the parts of the British Union actally were. Think of the North/South divide in England, but turned up to 11. The case and desire for independence was probably strongest in the early part of the 20th Century but, to my mind at least, after WW2 was a settled question until the double-whammy of North Sea oil and the Thatcher-era economic reforms.

These were, rightly or wrongly, both seen as impacting Scotland to the benefit of England, and created a whole new generation of Scottish Nationalists.

Again, the damage to the relationship between the two parts of the Union was largely repaired by the Devolution process, which is why in the 1999 election the Nationalists were soundly beaten by the Unionist parties. The growth in SNP support has been as much about the Unionist parties seeming out of touch with the Scottish population as it has been about genuine desire for independence. One of my former co-workers summed up his 'Yes' vote in the 2014 referendum as "Well, it can't be much worse than what we've got already."

Similarly, most people I know accepted the result of IndyRef and weren't agitating for a re-run... Until the 2016 Brexit referendum where there was a very marked divergence between the "Will of the People" north and south of the border. Now, naturally there's no practical way that the UK could be both in and out of the EU (let's ignore Northern Ireland for now (the UK Government is good at it so why can't we be?)), so again people accepted that the result was what it was, but we depend on frictionless trade with the EU moreso than most of England does, and will be disproptionately affected by a hard Brexit which, as far as anyone can tell, is exactly what the UK Government (especially under Alex Johnson) seems to be trying its best to achieve.

So, the TL;DR version is: recent support for Scottish Independence is reactive and reluctant, where most support for Brexit seems to be driven largely by jingoism.

North Sea oil helped the entire UK keep inflation low, without having to buy limited overseas energy supplies. As for that Thatcher reforms, whilst I am pro-industry, pro intervention, as I understand a large amount of industry in Britain could no longer sustain itself, and only was sustained via costly government intervention. Thatcherism itself intended a leaner but powerful industrial sector in Britain. Unfortuantley, it seemed to be taken as (from the Blairites as much as the Thatcherites) as an incredibly passive and indeed outright hostile stance towards industry. Those that take this view, which is sadly the vast amount of the political system, forgot until 2008 and Brexit that letting industry disappear destroys communites and creates mass resentment. This is a problem that Scotland and all of the UK bar London faces. Therefore whilst I don't disagree at all at what your saying, I disagree that the answer is seperation, the same way I, despite being a eurosceptic, disagreed with Brexit on the premise that it would restore lost communities because it's the wrong solution. My background is (like yours, Barbadian), but also South Welsh and Northern English, both of these places would deeply sympathise with Scotland's sentiment but I think we need to make our voices be heard over neo-liberal economics.

Doesn't Scotland trade more with England than the EU? I think that Brexit is driven by a long history where England has over centuries come to define itself as "Not-Europe". Which is why I would argue, the idea of leaving the EU should not have been as traumatic as it has been. I don't think there was ever a convincing socio-political case for us to have joined in the first place.

To be honest, I cannot see how or why Scotland would want to rejoin the EU. Scotland is, at the moment, an overtly nationalist country. The EU was made literally to stamp out nationalism from Europe. Why would a country like Scotland want to leave a Union whose flag is composed of Scotland's own flag, to join something that is designed to slowly erase the identity of the nations inside of it? To me, it makes no sense. I think Scotland, Wales and England (bar London, of course), need to re-strengthen our ties, as Britons, and stand up and tackle their grievances which we all, not just Scotland, faces.

 

[najaB]

Therefore whilst I don't disagree at all at what your saying, I disagree that the answer is seperation

I don't (or at least didn't) hold that view either. Certainly I was very solidly in the "No" camp during the 2014 IndyRef campaign.

Doesn't Scotland trade more with England than the EU?

Undoubtedly. But as a consitutient state of an EU member, Scotland was able to trade freely with both the rest of the UK and the EU. Now we face the prospect of borders both with the EU and within our own country (Northern Ireland).

I think that Brexit is driven by a long history where England has over centuries come to define itself as "Not-Europe".

Which is to our own detriment, to be honest. We have spent centuries trying to deny geographical reality. We are much, much more European than our 'closest' ally, the USA.

To be honest, I cannot see how or why Scotland would want to rejoin the EU. Scotland is, at the moment, an overtly nationalist country. The EU was made literally to stamp out nationalism from Europe. Why would a country like Scotland want to leave a Union whose flag is composed of Scotland's own flag, to join something that is designed to slowly erase the identity of the nations inside of it?

The two bolded statements are not equivalent. I agree with the first - both your understanding of the aim, and the intention - you just need to look at the 18th through 20th Century history of Europe to see how toxic nationalism lead to great squander of human and economic capital.

I strongly disagree with the latter. The EU is committed to encoraging the expression of national culture. Compared to other multi-national organisations they fund a dispropotionately large number of cultural heritage projects. Just in my home town they have funded dozens of projects both small and large. And that's not to mention things like PDO designation, City of Culture, etc.

 

[Meerkat]

The EU is committed to encoraging the expression of national culture. Compared to other multi-national organisations they fund a dispropotionately large number of cultural heritage projects. Just in my home town they have funded dozens of projects both small and large. And that's not to mention things like PDO designation, City of Culture, etc.

Can you give me an example of the EU encouraging national culture? Seems to me they encourage local and regional culture, which a cynic might suggest is part of a plan to erase national identities- divide and rule.....

 

[Chester1]

Undoubtedly. But as a consitutient state of an EU member, Scotland was able to trade freely with both the rest of the UK and the EU. Now we face the prospect of borders both with the EU and within our own country (Northern Ireland).

I think the point @Sad Sprinter was making is how do you justify Scottish independence because of brexit if it means a hard border with England (I think 60% of Scottish trade is with the rest of the UK)? The nationalist reaction seems to be either denial that this would happen or that it would be worth it to become independent. It seems to me slightly bizarre to hear the SNP say its economic suicide to lose frictionless trade with the EU when they want Scotland to respond to a hard brexit by leaving the UK and rejoining the EU, thus creating a customs and regulatory border with England. The very trade deal that the SNP will condemn as inadequate for Scotland with the EU, would be Scotland's trade deal with England and Wales. I am not a fan of brexit and neither separatism seems rational to me. As an Englishman it does come across that I am the "other" for some Scottish nationalists, that immigrants are for some brexiteers.

 

[najaB]

I think the point @Sad Sprinter was making is how do you justify Scottish independence because of brexit if it means a hard border with England (I think 60% of Scottish trade is with the rest of the UK)?

I can't, because I have always been pro-Union.

 

[najaB]

Can you give me an example of the EU encouraging national culture? Seems to me they encourage local and regional culture...

What is national culture, if not the agglomeration of regional cultures?

 

[Meerkat]

What is national culture, if not the agglomeration of regional cultures?

National culture is national culture, an extra layer.
The EU promotes regional/local culture, and Europe, deliberately to promote federalism

 

[najaB]

The EU promotes regional/local culture, and Europe, deliberately to promote federalism

Alternate view: to combat toxic nationalism.

 

[Meerkat]

Alternate view: to combat toxic nationalism.

By instigating toxic regionalism?

 

[najaB]

By instigating toxic regionalism?

Okay, so question. What is "British culture"?

 

[Meerkat]

Okay, so question. What is "British culture"?

Very difficult to nail down, as it doesn’t have obvious physical attributes.
Why?

 

[najaB]

Why?

Because you said:

National culture is national culture, an extra layer.
The EU promotes regional/local culture

So I'm interested in how "British Culture" is any different to the sum of "Cornish+London+Mid-Country+Welsh..."

 

[Meerkat]

Because you said:
So I'm interested in how "British Culture" is any different to the sum of "Cornish+London+Mid-Country+Welsh..."

I would say it was an average rather than a sum!

 

[najaB]

I would say it was an average rather than a sum!

Regardless, national culture is based on regional culture - support regional/local culture and national culture takes care of itself.