Scottish Electrification updates & discussion

[Southsider]

Up and Down Roads in Carfin Cutting have now had wires installed.

All wire runs on Shotts line have now been completed.

Excellent news. There is much speculation on the forum as to where next for the rolling programme of electrification, what's your view?

 

[Macwomble]

There is much speculation on the forum as to where next for the rolling programme of electrification, what's your view?

EK, Barrhead/Kilmarnock plus, perhaps, Kilmarnock to Barassie, Maryhill & the Edinburgh South Sub.

 

[Altnabreac]

Excellent news. There is much speculation on the forum as to where next for the rolling programme of electrification, what's your view?

EK, Barrhead/Kilmarnock plus, perhaps, Kilmarnock to Barassie, Maryhill & the Edinburgh South Sub.

Barrhead - Kilmarnock electrification is only helping about 15tpd each way (excluding trains extending beyond Kilmarnock) and Kilmarnock to Barassie about 10tpd each way (all of which currently extend to either Girvan / Stranraer beyond the wires).

This is not to say there is not value in wiring Barrhead - Kilmarnock but I suspect it would need somewhat of a timetable recast and it may be likely to end up behind Dunblane - Perth in the priority of schemes.

 

[gingertom]

Excellent news. There is much speculation on the forum as to where next for the rolling programme of electrification, what's your view?

EK's the no brainer with Barrhead & Kilmarnock close behind. Maryhill useful infill as is Barassie then Dunblane-Perth-Dundee and Fife Circle.

 

[tbtc]

Barrhead - Kilmarnock electrification is only helping about 15tpd each way (excluding trains extending beyond Kilmarnock) and Kilmarnock to Barassie about 10tpd each way (all of which currently extend to either Girvan / Stranraer beyond the wires).

This is not to say there is not value in wiring Barrhead - Kilmarnock but I suspect it would need somewhat of a timetable recast and it may be likely to end up behind Dunblane - Perth in the priority of schemes

I agree that (until bi-mode comes to ScotRail) there aren't a lot of trains that would directly benefit from Barrhead - Kilmarnock electrification (since, as you say, a large number of Glasgow - Kilmarnock services run beyond Kilmarnock, so there's not going to be a lot of DMUs that can be freed up by EMUs).

But, whilst we have a few "stub" branchlines we could be sorting out (EK, Maryhill), I can't see the logic in Dunblane - Perth being high up any list, given how few Dunblane services start/end in Perth. Looking at RTT, of the twenty eight Perth - Dunblane services today, only three start at Perth (four from Dundee, sixteen from Aberdeenshire, five from Inverness). As most of those are going to be HST operated in a few months time, it's not like bi-mode is on the table (other than the Chieftain).

It's a step towards wiring the line to Dundee/ Aberdeen, sure, but there are surely bigger priorities - either finishing off the "commuter" stuff around Glasgow (Barrhead etc) or grasping the nettle and making a decision on the Fife Circle. I'd even put the Borders line ahead of Dunblane - Perth (half hourly service, some single line sections too).

 

[kylemore]

A reliable 8 car every 30mins would be preferable to an unreliable 4 car every 15!

 

[Aictos]

I agree that (until bi-mode comes to ScotRail) there aren't a lot of trains that would directly benefit from Barrhead - Kilmarnock electrification (since, as you say, a large number of Glasgow - Kilmarnock services run beyond Kilmarnock, so there's not going to be a lot of DMUs that can be freed up by EMUs).

But, whilst we have a few "stub" branchlines we could be sorting out (EK, Maryhill), I can't see the logic in Dunblane - Perth being high up any list, given how few Dunblane services start/end in Perth. Looking at RTT, of the twenty eight Perth - Dunblane services today, only three start at Perth (four from Dundee, sixteen from Aberdeenshire, five from Inverness). As most of those are going to be HST operated in a few months time, it's not like bi-mode is on the table (other than the Chieftain).

It's a step towards wiring the line to Dundee/ Aberdeen, sure, but there are surely bigger priorities - either finishing off the "commuter" stuff around Glasgow (Barrhead etc) or grasping the nettle and making a decision on the Fife Circle. I'd even put the Borders line ahead of Dunblane - Perth (half hourly service, some single line sections too).

I agree, they ought to finish off the Central Belt for example wire up Glasgow Street to Anniesland so Queen Street for example would only see DMUs on the West Highland line and the HSTs on the 7 Cities services.

As to the Borders line and the Fife Circle, if they did recast the timetable they could introduce a Tweedbank to North Berwick via Edinburgh service using EMUs with the DMUs being used on the Edinburgh to Edinburgh via Fife Circle service - note it is ONLY a suggestion.

Now as much as I would like to see the Fife Circle fully wired up with EMUs being used, until they resolve the issue of a certain bridge it ought to be put aside until such a time that they've resolved the bridge issue and instead wire up other locations which bring easy and quick benefits.

 

[Altnabreac]

I agree that (until bi-mode comes to ScotRail) there aren't a lot of trains that would directly benefit from Barrhead - Kilmarnock electrification (since, as you say, a large number of Glasgow - Kilmarnock services run beyond Kilmarnock, so there's not going to be a lot of DMUs that can be freed up by EMUs).

But, whilst we have a few "stub" branchlines we could be sorting out (EK, Maryhill), I can't see the logic in Dunblane - Perth being high up any list, given how few Dunblane services start/end in Perth. Looking at RTT, of the twenty eight Perth - Dunblane services today, only three start at Perth (four from Dundee, sixteen from Aberdeenshire, five from Inverness). As most of those are going to be HST operated in a few months time, it's not like bi-mode is on the table (other than the Chieftain).

It's a step towards wiring the line to Dundee/ Aberdeen, sure, but there are surely bigger priorities - either finishing off the "commuter" stuff around Glasgow (Barrhead etc) or grasping the nettle and making a decision on the Fife Circle. I'd even put the Borders line ahead of Dunblane - Perth (half hourly service, some single line sections too).

Dunblane - Perth would need to be followed quickly by Perth - Dundee to be effective. I agree EK, Barrhead and Maryhill are at the head of the queue but after that Dunblane northwards has many advantages over Kilmarnock:

Hourly semi fast Glasgow - Dundee service can go fully electric.

Wires extending to 5 out of 7 Scottish cities. Investment outside the central belt being politically important.

Allows Dundee - Aberdeen as next phase. Much better business case than Dumfries as next phase from Kilmarnock.

LNER Bi-Modes can also use wires.

Potential to replace HSTs with Bi-Modes post 2030.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

@Altnabreac you have stated exactly what I was thinking and trying to express upthread. Perfectly stated

 

[Fougasse]

Excellent news. There is much speculation on the forum as to where next for the rolling programme of electrification, what's your view?

There's lots of gossip, but nothing firm as yet. A lot depends on successful and timely commissioning of Shotts and SDA.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's ironic that the Stirling, Shotts, Chase and Bolton electrification schemes are completing at virtually the same time, plus the Didcot-Bristol Parkway and Reading-Newbury extensions.
This is close on the heels of E&G, Grahamston, GOBLIN and Bromsgrove which were completed in the last few months.
There are a lot of resources about to come free, but no shovel-ready scheme to go to in Scotland.
NR will probably want them to accelerate Bristol-Cardiff and Bedford-Corby if there is no immediate follow on work in Scotland.
On the SG budget, that's only for a year which would not fund any new scheme to completion over the likely 2-3 years, though it might kick off design and planning.
The 5-year UK public spending review next year will probably have a greater bearing on SG's CP6 funds for capital projects.

 

[jopsuk]

Dunblane - Perth would need to be followed quickly by Perth - Dundee to be effective. I agree EK, Barrhead and Maryhill are at the head of the queue but after that Dunblane northwards has many advantages over Kilmarnock:

Hourly semi fast Glasgow - Dundee service can go fully electric.

Wires extending to 5 out of 7 Scottish cities. Investment outside the central belt being politically important.

Allows Dundee - Aberdeen as next phase. Much better business case than Dumfries as next phase from Kilmarnock.

LNER Bi-Modes can also use wires.

Potential to replace HSTs with Bi-Modes post 2030.

Once wires reach Dundee there will be immense pressure, if it hasn't already been done, to get Fife done. And around that time the folly of not wiring up the Borders railway when it was built will be clear to see.

 

[tbtc]

I agree, they ought to finish off the Central Belt for example wire up Glasgow Street to Anniesland so Queen Street for example would only see DMUs on the West Highland line and the HSTs on the 7 Cities services.

As to the Borders line and the Fife Circle, if they did recast the timetable they could introduce a Tweedbank to North Berwick via Edinburgh service using EMUs with the DMUs being used on the Edinburgh to Edinburgh via Fife Circle service - note it is ONLY a suggestion.

Now as much as I would like to see the Fife Circle fully wired up with EMUs being used, until they resolve the issue of a certain bridge it ought to be put aside until such a time that they've resolved the bridge issue and instead wire up other locations which bring easy and quick benefits.

Agreed re the benefits at Queen Street if only they could do the short section to Anniesland.

I think that someone needs to take two tough decisions re Scottish electrification:

1. What's the timetable for wiring to Aberdeen/ Inverness
2. What are you going to do about the Forth Bridge

ScotRail neatly side-stepped the first question by bringing in the HSTs, avoiding the need to take a big decision for another decade or so - sweating the 1970s assets saves either funding wires all that way *or* telling Aberdeen/ Inverness that they aren't important enough to get electrified - it's passing the buck to a future administration.

As for Fife... is the future bi-modes with wiring from Haymarket to Dalmeney and then again from Inverkeithing north? That would allow them to do it in four stages (e.g. Haymarket to Dalmeney, Inverkeithing to Markinch, Inverkeithing to Thornton, Markinch to Dundee) and get benefits at each stage.

But, if nobody wants to take the tough long term decisions about the above two subjects then I'm all for wiring up the remaining sections of the central belt - starting with Anniesland and East Kilbride.

Dunblane - Perth would need to be followed quickly by Perth - Dundee to be effective. I agree EK, Barrhead and Maryhill are at the head of the queue but after that Dunblane northwards has many advantages over Kilmarnock:

Hourly semi fast Glasgow - Dundee service can go fully electric.

Wires extending to 5 out of 7 Scottish cities. Investment outside the central belt being politically important.

Allows Dundee - Aberdeen as next phase. Much better business case than Dumfries as next phase from Kilmarnock.

LNER Bi-Modes can also use wires.

Potential to replace HSTs with Bi-Modes post 2030.

Even if you wire Dunblane to Dundee, that's only freeing up one diesel train per hour (and one LNER service per day gets thirty miles extra under the wires). Slim pickings for around fifty miles of double track electrification, unless you are going all the way to Aberdeen after. And, if you are going to wire to Aberdeen then you're only benefitting half of the trains that currently run north of Dundee (since the other half come from Edinburgh). So you might as well do the Fife Circle first, which brings a number of benefits, before worrying about the longer distance stuff. Dunblane to Perth looks fairly tokenistic, but maybe Holyrood will want to show people that they are investing in the old Grampian TV region (compared to all of the electrification thus far being in the STV region) - politics rather than practical improvements (like removing lots of diesel fumes from Waverley Station).

Re Kilmarnock - I'd be tempted to extend the wires to Ayr too - the two towns have a terrible rail frequency, given how close they are. I don't know how Glasgow - Kilmarnock - Ayr would compare with times via Paisley but I'm surprised there's been no attempts to boost the frequency between the two biggest places in Ayrshire. Isn't the First Minister from Irvine?

 

[alangla]

On the Forth Bridge issue, other than aesthetics, what are the key issues? Is there a problem with separation between the structure and overhead wires/conductor bar? Given the fact that most modern EMUs seem to be available as dual voltage, would 3rd rail work? (Ignoring the dispensation that would be needed, obviously)
There must be a better option than dragging Diesel engines or batteries around purely to get over the bridge! Also, does the Tay bridge present any similar problems?

 

[MadMac]

On the Forth Bridge issue, other than aesthetics, what are the key issues? Is there a problem with separation between the structure and overhead wires/conductor bar? Given the fact that most modern EMUs seem to be available as dual voltage, would 3rd rail work? (Ignoring the dispensation that would be needed, obviously)
There must be a better option than dragging Diesel engines or batteries around purely to get over the bridge! Also, does the Tay bridge present any similar problems?

Years ago, I was told that the Forth Bridge couldn't even accommodate an electric being dragged across with the pan down, never mind actual wiring. Now, of course, clearances/technology may well have changed: I don't know the current position. As to the Tay Bridge, I don't think it's ever been seriously looked at, but the obvious "obstacle" would be the High Girders. Other issues going north: tunnels at Moncrieff, North Queensferry, Inverkeithing, Kinghorn and Dock Street.

 

[benbristow]

Depends if they do the full Bhuna and double it all from Busby to EK or add an extra passing loop . EK line does suffer , someone told me that a peak to Glasgow was full by Hairmyres !

That doesn't surprise me.

I'm lucky in my commute in the fact that I go TO Hairmyres and not from it so the train is pretty long ready for the journey back to Glasgow (6 carriages unless maintenence/issues when it usually cuts down to 2 in my experience)

When I get off at Hairmyres the platform's always mobbed.

 

[Altnabreac]

Once wires reach Dundee there will be immense pressure, if it hasn't already been done, to get Fife done. And around that time the folly of not wiring up the Borders railway when it was built will be clear to see.

Borders Rail would never have been funded wired up. There aren’t any structure clearance issues though so it should be a fairly cheap one eventually. Wiring to Gala would make an extension to Hawick more expensive to deliver and undermine the business case so I’d rather see it reopen prior to electrification. Same issue for Levenmouth.

I’m sure a solution to Forth and Tay bridges will be found but I tend to think wires will head north from Dunblane to Perth then Dundee then Aberdeen (and probably then Inverurie) in that order. There will be local services Dundee to Arbroath and Aberdeen to Montrose that can benefit as well as the Glasgow Inter7City services.

The political benefit or wires reaching Aberdeen outweighs that of wiring Fife. Especially if Bi-Modes are on the horizon as HST replacements.

 

[snowball]

On the Forth Bridge issue, other than aesthetics, what are the key issues? Is there a problem with separation between the structure and overhead wires/conductor bar? Given the fact that most modern EMUs seem to be available as dual voltage, would 3rd rail work?

The problems of electrifying the FB had their own thread recently. Nobody on here knows for certain what the problems are but a plausible story which I heard is given in my post, second in the thread.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/forth-bridge-how-would-you-electrify-it.166668/

 

[adrock1976]

I am aware that wiring routes for diversion purposes are not normally included for consideration, but if no solution can be found regarding the Forth Bridge after wiring Maryhill, East Kilbride, and Kilmarnock, could the wires extend south of Kilmarnock to Gretna Junction?

Presently, the Glasgow Central - Carlisle via Kilmarnock is broadly every 2 hours, with additional short workings every 2 hours between Dumfries and Carlisle. Furthermore, if the Caledonian Main Line is closed between Gretna Junction and Carstairs/Motherwell for engineering works, this would mean that the Virgin Intercity trains that are operated by Class 390 Pendolinos could be diverted via Kilmarnock, rather than having to borrow Super Voyagers from (mainly I believe) the London Euston - Chester route (sometimes these are truncated to run Holyhead or Chester - Crewe, with onward connections on either the ex Liverpool or Manchester).

 

[Highlandspring]

Years ago, I was told that the Forth Bridge couldn't even accommodate an electric being dragged across with the pan down, never mind actual wiring. Now, of course, clearances/technology may well have changed: I don't know the current position.

There’s an entry in the Scotland Route Sectional Appendix General Instructions (which has been in there for at least 18 years) that states electric locomotives and EMUs are cleared to be hauled dead over any line in Scotland with the pan down and isolated, except for Markinch GF to Auchmuty. And I don’t think anyone needs to worry too much about clearing that one!

 

[Highlandspring]

It also occurs to me that MENTOR, the NMT and a few class 800 units have run from Edinburgh to Aberdeen via the Fife coast in recent years, all pan down of course.

 

[jopsuk]

Borders Rail would never have been funded wired up. There aren’t any structure clearance issues though so it should be a fairly cheap one eventually. Wiring to Gala would make an extension to Hawick more expensive to deliver and undermine the business case so I’d rather see it reopen prior to electrification. Same issue for Levenmouth.

I’m sure a solution to Forth and Tay bridges will be found but I tend to think wires will head north from Dunblane to Perth then Dundee then Aberdeen (and probably then Inverurie) in that order. There will be local services Dundee to Arbroath and Aberdeen to Montrose that can benefit as well as the Glasgow Inter7City services.

The political benefit or wires reaching Aberdeen outweighs that of wiring Fife. Especially if Bi-Modes are on the horizon as HST replacements.

Once fife is done Borders becomes a rolling stock issue- it would then be the only Diesel non Inter7city service out of Edinburgh, so would presumably have to be run from the same depot as the (by then) remaining Strathclyde/south west diesels.

 

[Photohunter71]

Contrary to what is stated in NR documents. There are clearly a number of bridge parapets which need to be raised. And since this is not intended as a high speed line, short neutral sections will cover the rest. A lot of vegetation clearance, mind you since much of the Western end is in a cutting.

The only problem area for a neutral section would be at Craiglockart, where the road bridge is immediately followed by the Union Canal and then the junction leading up to Slateford.

I agree, especially around the Cluny gardens and Morningside areas where the bridges are not very OLE friendly. There would also have to be a raising or completely new footbridge from Fort Kinnaird to Asda to accomodate wiring up, this is something I can't see in the immediate future, but maybe past 2021?

 

[Aictos]

Back in 2008 so just under a decade ago, Transport Scotland released this report on electrification in Scotland and it's quite interesting as it covers existing projects plus Fife!

Click here for the full report

There are interesting snippets such as:

It is envisaged that electrification would be delivered on a phased basis. In the short term, this would include:

• Phase 1 - Committed improvements as part of the Edinburgh to Glasgow improvements, comprising Edinburgh to Glasgow via Falkirk route, Diversion Routes 1 (Haymarket) and 2 (Falkirk Grahamston), and electrification on the route via Cumbernauld and to Dunblane / Alloa; and
• Phase 2 - Electrification of the remaining routes in the Central Belt (Shotts, Whifflet, Paisley Canal, Glasgow North Suburban, East Kilbride and Kilmarnock).

A.49 In the longer term, extending into the period beyond STPR, this would include:

• Phase 3 - Electrification of routes between Edinburgh, Perth and Dundee including the Fife Circle;
• Phase 4 - Electrification from Dunblane to Aberdeen; and
• Phase 5 – Electrification from Perth to Inverness.

So it's interesting that even in 2008 they were looking at electrification past the Central Belt.

 

[mullac30]

Back in 2008 so just under a decade ago, Transport Scotland released this report on electrification in Scotland and it's quite interesting as it covers existing projects plus Fife!

Click here for the full report

There are interesting snippets such as:

It is envisaged that electrification would be delivered on a phased basis. In the short term, this would include:

• Phase 1 - Committed improvements as part of the Edinburgh to Glasgow improvements, comprising Edinburgh to Glasgow via Falkirk route, Diversion Routes 1 (Haymarket) and 2 (Falkirk Grahamston), and electrification on the route via Cumbernauld and to Dunblane / Alloa; and
• Phase 2 - Electrification of the remaining routes in the Central Belt (Shotts, Whifflet, Paisley Canal, Glasgow North Suburban, East Kilbride and Kilmarnock).

A.49 In the longer term, extending into the period beyond STPR, this would include:

• Phase 3 - Electrification of routes between Edinburgh, Perth and Dundee including the Fife Circle;
• Phase 4 - Electrification from Dunblane to Aberdeen; and
• Phase 5 – Electrification from Perth to Inverness.

So it's interesting that even in 2008 they were looking at electrification past the Central Belt.

What are people's guesses as to when the last wires will be put in Inverness? I'd say mid to late 2020's. And what is going to happen to the massive skilled work force and supply chain when the rolling program is completed here?

 

[route101]

That doesn't surprise me.

I'm lucky in my commute in the fact that I go TO Hairmyres and not from it so the train is pretty long ready for the journey back to Glasgow (6 carriages unless maintenence/issues when it usually cuts down to 2 in my experience)

When I get off at Hairmyres the platform's always mobbed.

Lot of new housing around there and EK is a car centric town . Altough parts of the town will have a quicker bus journey to City Centre .

I suspect Maryhill will be a lot easier to do than EK . Service going every 20 minutes will be a huge improvement if so .

 

[Ginaro]

I agree, especially around the Cluny gardens and Morningside areas where the bridges are not very OLE friendly. There would also have to be a raising or completely new footbridge from Fort Kinnaird to Asda to accomodate wiring up, this is something I can't see in the immediate future, but maybe past 2021?

Good point about Fort Kinnaird, although going by this footage there looks to be enough clearance so maybe just raising of parapets?

 

[kilonewton]

I suspect Maryhill will be a lot easier to do than EK . Service going every 20 minutes will be a huge improvement if so .

I don’t know much about East Kilbride and it’s ease of electrification or otherwise, but Maryhill has both Maryhill Road and Balmore Road to be rebuilt. The latter is having works on the water main done after a wrangle between Scottish Water, Glasgow City Council and Network Rail about who was responsible for the bridge, and the water main. If what that main supplies is what I’ve been told, diverting that water main whilst rebuilding the bridge won’t be trivial.

 

[gingertom]

I don’t know much about East Kilbride and it’s ease of electrification or otherwise, but Maryhill has both Maryhill Road and Balmore Road to be rebuilt. The latter is having works on the water main done after a wrangle between Scottish Water, Glasgow City Council and Network Rail about who was responsible for the bridge, and the water main. If what that main supplies is what I’ve been told, diverting that water main whilst rebuilding the bridge won’t be trivial.

there's also the small matter of tunnels under the Forth & Clyde canal at Lambhill. They're in a poor state of repair and likely need a rebuild like Carmuirs.

 

[InOban]

And that's before the bores under the Canal. Probably needs a Carmuirs, is open out the cutting and convert the canal into an aqueduct.