Scottish Electrification updates & discussion

[LNW-GW Joint]

I see the tunnel already has registration gear attached to the roof.

 

[jopsuk]

I'd like a clearer picture- is it just the fittings or is the conductor rail actually in place?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I'd like a clearer picture- is it just the fittings or is the conductor rail actually in place?

It's just the fittings at the tunnel entrance - don't know about further into the tunnel but almost certainly not as there's no contact wire to ROC transition elements at the portals as yet.

 

[Southsider]

Is there any news of progress on the Shotts line electrification? The most recent jobs such as Paisley Canal, Whifflet and Cumbernauld seemed to go smoothly, just wondering if this one is following suit but there doesn't appear to be anything on the NR website.

 

[fgwrich]

Is there any news of progress on the Shotts line electrification? The most recent jobs such as Paisley Canal, Whifflet and Cumbernauld seemed to go smoothly, just wondering if this one is following suit but there doesn't appear to be anything on the NR website.

I know that some considerable bridge reconstruction is taking place along the line - particularly in the Livingston area at the moment.

 

[92002]

I know that some considerable bridge reconstruction is taking place along the line - particularly in the Livingston area at the moment.

Carillion have been awarded a contract for the works.

A number of bridges have already been lifted and others currently in progress.

No doubt the staff who already completed the Whifflet and Cumbernauld electrification have transferred to Shotts.

Unlikely to be completed before Mid 2017.

 

[Carntyne]

Carillion have been awarded a contract for the works.

A number of bridges have already been lifted and others currently in progress.

No doubt the staff who already completed the Whifflet and Cumbernauld electrification have transferred to Shotts.

Unlikely to be completed before Mid 2017.

Shotts isn't due to be up and running until 2019. Advance works have been ongoing for at least a year now though. Fairly cracking on with the bridge works.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Shotts isn't due to be up and running until 2019. Advance works have been ongoing for at least a year now though. Fairly cracking on with the bridge works.

Yeah, the advanced bridge works in Scotland, the Northwest and GWML, plus what has been done on TP and MML really demonstrate what happens once you get teams, from engineers and surveyors through to the construction teams on the ground trained and really fluent at their jobs.

 

[Carntyne]

Yeah, the advanced bridge works in Scotland, the Northwest and GWML, plus what has been done on TP and MML really demonstrate what happens once you get teams, from engineers and surveyors through to the construction teams on the ground trained and really fluent at their jobs.

The rolling programme of electrification up here will hopefully keep the teams involved constantly in work. It's great to see EGIP progressing so well and without any problems so far and gives confidence that future works will go just as well.

 

[Altnabreac]

Carillion have been awarded a contract for the works.

A number of bridges have already been lifted and others currently in progress.

No doubt the staff who already completed the Whifflet and Cumbernauld electrification have transferred to Shotts.

Unlikely to be completed before Mid 2017.

I believe there are 17 Bridge Replacements and 10 Bridges undergoing Parapet works as part of the scheme.

I think 2 bridges are completed at Hartwood and Breich Terrace.

Possibly complete are 3 bridges at Muiredge Wood near Bonkle, Chapelknowe Farm near Carfin and Starryshaw Farm near Shotts that Network Rail have mentioned in tweets about ongoing work.

Current bridges with work ongoing are:

Murieston Road in Livingston - started in August 2015, due for completion February 2016.
http://www.westlothian.gov.uk/article/9513/Murieston-Road-Livingston---Road-Closure

Meadowhead Road in Addiewell - started in October 2015, due for completion in May 2016

Benhar Road in Shotts
https://twitter.com/networkrailscot/status/659378651570507776

Other bridges that I believe are going to be replaced but work hasn't started yet are:
Brucefield Park West in Livingston
A706 at Breich

This is the list of all the overbridges on the Shotts Line from an old FOI:

285/009 NEWARTHILL ROAD NS7755758855
285/011 WHITTAGREEN NS7833758672
285/012 CLAY ROAD NS7876258501
285/013 NEWARTHILL NS7910158466
285/017 BIGGAR RD "CLELAND STATION" NS8017358400
285/029 OVERBRIDGE NS8228158114
285/033 KEEPER ROAD FORMER O/B NS8282957931
285/044 OVERBRIDGE NS8474759033
285/046 OVERBRIDGE NS8493659113
285/049 OVERBRIDGE NS8581059318
285/059 STATION RD NS8743759856
285/063 LAUNDRY NS8803560302
285/069 STRARRYSHAW NS8983961281
285/075 OVERBRIDGE NS9184660150
285/087 OVERBRIDGE NS9388759805
285/089 OVERBRIDGE NS9415159888
285/100 OVERBRIDGE NS9557760584
285/102 BREICH TERRACE NS9644361000
285/112 MEADOWHEAD NS9903362070
285/121 HAPPY LAND NT0140063142
285/125 WEST CALDER NT0211263367
285/126 PARKHEAD NT0244063580
285/131 BLACKMIRES NT0395664132
285/132 BEECHWOOD NT0424164224
285/134 NEWPARK NT0490964511

Bolded are the ones that I think have work complete or underway.

 

[snowball]

Possibly complete are 3 bridges at Muiredge Wood near Bonkle, Chapelknowe Farm near Carfin and Starryshaw Farm near Shotts that Network Rail have mentioned in tweets about ongoing work.

Nice to learn there's a place called Bonkle.

And Starryshaw Farm too.

 

[matchmaker]

Nice to learn there's a place called Bonkle.

And Starryshaw Farm too.

Bonkle used to be a bus destination.

 

[tbtc]

Possibly complete are 3 bridges at Muiredge Wood near Bonkle, Chapelknowe Farm near Carfin and Starryshaw Farm near Shotts that Network Rail have mentioned in tweets about ongoing work

Nice to learn there's a place called Bonkle

Bonkle used to be a bus destination

Maybe I'm showing my age, but I'd guess that most (male) Scots of my generation would associate the place with one particular gentleman...

Referee: H Dallas (Bonkle)

...from the days when Refs came from very specific places - nowadays a lot less is given out about them (probably because it wouldn't be very difficult to google the entire population of Bonkle these days, if you had a chip on your shoulder about an off-side decision), but I can't see Bonkle mentioned without thinking of Hugh.

 

[snowball]

Bonkle used to be a bus destination.

And Auchenshuggle was a tram destintination.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Yeah, the advanced bridge works in Scotland, the Northwest and GWML, plus what has been done on TP and MML really demonstrate what happens once you get teams, from engineers and surveyors through to the construction teams on the ground trained and really fluent at their jobs.

Exactly - I just hope that is the main lesson learned and Mark Carne et al make the exact same recommendation to the Secretary of State for Transport. We need identical in England/Wales. Build up the teams and have a steady rolling program until about 2050. There will always be repair/rebuild etc to do - a great lifelong career. It is the stop-start since 1955 and especially since about 1992 (total stop) that has been a huge problem.

 

[railjock]

Maybe I'm showing my age, but I'd guess that most (male) Scots of my generation would associate the place with one particular gentleman...



...from the days when Refs came from very specific places - nowadays a lot less is given out about them (probably because it wouldn't be very difficult to google the entire population of Bonkle these days, if you had a chip on your shoulder about an off-side decision), but I can't see Bonkle mentioned without thinking of Hugh.

Agreed.

 

[matchmaker]

And Auchenshuggle was a tram destintination.

Bus as well - 64 from memory.

 

[och aye]

Planning application has been submitted for the Millerhill Train Depot:

Formation of train cleaning and stabling depot; erection of retaining walls and alterations to ground levels; formation of new railway lines; erection of boundary fencing; and formation of SUDS features; car parking and access | Millerhill Marshalling Yard Whitehill Road Millerhill Dalkeith

https://planning-applications.midlo...ils.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=NXLG21KVG5J00

 

[SouthSub]

Maybe I'm showing my age, but I'd guess that most (male) Scots of my generation would associate the place with one particular gentleman...



...from the days when Refs came from very specific places - nowadays a lot less is given out about them (probably because it wouldn't be very difficult to google the entire population of Bonkle these days, if you had a chip on your shoulder about an off-side decision), but I can't see Bonkle mentioned without thinking of Hugh.

The first thing that springs to mind when I see the place name.

Originally I knew it as an amusing destination on signposts when driving between Livingston and Larkhall.

 

[davetheguard]

There has been much talk of delays and escalating costs for the Great Western electrification in England and Wales. The latest "Modern Railways" reports the work is costing six times more per single track kilometre than it cost B.R. to electrify the East Coast Main Line. Cue front page headlines in the press; questions asked in the House; Hendy report to investigate etc. etc.

Meanwhile, to this observor at least, CP 5 electrification in Scotland, seems to efficiently progress without fuss: Whifflet (completed); Cumbernauld (completed); EGIP (well under way). These projects seem to come in on time and, I pressume(?), on budget.

Leaving the issues of Electrification Factory Trains aside, how can project delivery be so different either side of the border? Are there things that Network Rail in England should be learning from Network Rail in Scotland?

 

[NotATrainspott]

There has been much talk of delays and escalating costs for the Great Western electrification in England and Wales. The latest "Modern Railways" reports the work is costing six times more per single track kilometre than it cost B.R. to electrify the East Coast Main Line. Cue front page headlines in the press; questions asked in the House; Hendy report to investigate etc. etc.

Meanwhile, to this observor at least, CP 5 electrification in Scotland, seems to efficiently progress without fuss: Whifflet (completed); Cumbernauld (completed); EGIP (well under way). These projects seem to come in on time and, I pressume(?), on budget.

Leaving the issues of Electrification Factory Trains aside, how can project delivery be so different either side of the border? Are there things that Network Rail in England should be learning from Network Rail in Scotland?

Long term planning. That's all it is. It's not necessarily the case that Scotland is naturally better at it, it's just that the Scottish rail network is structured in such a way that EGIP needs to be done before any other big rail ideas (e.g. Glasgow cross-city tunnel, electrification to the north, etc) can be started. In England, there are many different possible schemes which don't rely upon each other, so there is no obvious choice as to what schemes need to be taken forward first. The North West/TransPennine electrification project is very separate to the MML electrification project which is very separate to the GWML electrification project and so on. If planned properly, this wouldn't be a problem, but as there are more schemes for a government to choose from the likelihood of messing everything up increases.

 

[najaB]

Leaving the issues of Electrification Factory Trains aside, how can project delivery be so different either side of the border? Are there things that Network Rail in England should be learning from Network Rail in Scotland?

"Never accept the lowest bid?"

As a complete outsider, it seems that the majority of the problems with the GWML project has been a lack of documentation of signalling and comms which has meant that they have had lots of surprises. The result of which is they haven't been able to 'industrialise' the process which drives up costs and slows progress.

What I don't know is if NR in Scotland had it easy, or if NR in England had it hard.

 

[Altnabreac]

There has been much talk of delays and escalating costs for the Great Western electrification in England and Wales. The latest "Modern Railways" reports the work is costing six times more per single track kilometre than it cost B.R. to electrify the East Coast Main Line. Cue front page headlines in the press; questions asked in the House; Hendy report to investigate etc. etc.

Meanwhile, to this observor at least, CP 5 electrification in Scotland, seems to efficiently progress without fuss: Whifflet (completed); Cumbernauld (completed); EGIP (well under way). These projects seem to come in on time and, I pressume(?), on budget.

Leaving the issues of Electrification Factory Trains aside, how can project delivery be so different either side of the border? Are there things that Network Rail in England should be learning from Network Rail in Scotland?

From the perspective of someone who has been peripherally involved in the electrification but is not a railway employee I'd say the differences have maybe been:

• A build up of skills over several years starting with Airdrie - Bathgate which was not a working railway environment so made for an easier learning curve.
• A relatively measured programme that is not trying to deliver too much too soon.
• Good alliancing and co-operation between Scotrail and Network Rail Scotland.
• Good advance planning. Shotts line electrification doesn't go live until Dec 2018 but the structure clearance has been going on for at least 12 months.
• Guarantee of future work. There is a reasonable expectation that there will be a consistent and continuing programme of circa 100 track km per year through CP6 and CP7 so subcontractors can invest in plant and staff with an expectation of continued work in future.

 

[Domh245]

There is also the matter of the Scottish work not being planned on using a complex, untested, piece of machinery that then didn't really work.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

"Never accept the lowest bid?"
What I don't know is if NR in Scotland had it easy, or if NR in England had it hard.

The North West project is very similar to EGIP - same design etc (Series 2).
And yet NW ran into delays and (rumoured) cost problems which led the contractor to walk off the project half way - presumably it was unprofitable for them.
And then again the NW contractor (Balfour Beatty) is still doing the Crossrail electrification. Some things don't add up.
Carillion (who did the Cumbernauld work) has been appointed to finish the NW project.

There is also the matter of the Scottish work not being planned on using a complex, untested, piece of machinery that then didn't really work.

Don't worry, EGIP is said to be getting its own specially built wiring machine, so it will soon go pear-shaped...
http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/first-wires-go-up-on-egip

The wiring work is currently being delivered using conventional mobile elevated platform methods, ahead of the arrival of a new wiring train in January

 

[Philip Phlopp]

The North West project is very similar to EGIP - same design etc (Series 2).
And yet NW ran into delays and (rumoured) cost problems which led the contractor to walk off the project half way - presumably it was unprofitable for them.
And then again the NW contractor (Balfour Beatty) is still doing the Crossrail electrification. Some things don't add up.
Carillion (who did the Cumbernauld work) has been appointed to finish the NW project.



Don't worry, EGIP is said to be getting its own specially built wiring machine, so it will soon go pear-shaped...
http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/first-wires-go-up-on-egip

I think it's just a wiring train, like the thing Balfour Beatty were using (or going to use). Just allows a bit (well a lot) more wire to be carried compared with RRVs and the like.

 

[McRhu]

Obviously the new electrification schemes are using Series 1 (GWML) or Series 2 (EGIP, etc). These new equipments are said to be quite expensive up front - much more so than MkIIIb which was cheaper to install but more expensive to maintain. In view of what's been happening elsewhere maybe having high initial costs wasn't the best policy after all and as for better reliability... the proof of the pudding's in the eating, although with the sheer bulk of the portals it'd be hard to imagine anything blowing down at windspeeds of less than 500 mph. On the subject of OHLE, whatever happened to the Siemens SM1 used on the Larkhall line and the Gourock line (where it replaced much of the MK II)? Why no repeat usage elsewhere?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Obviously the new electrification schemes are using Series 1 (GWML) or Series 2 (EGIP, etc). These new equipments are said to be quite expensive up front - much more so than MkIIIb which was cheaper to install but more expensive to maintain. In view of what's been happening elsewhere maybe having high initial costs wasn't the best policy after all and as for better reliability... the proof of the pudding's in the eating, although with the sheer bulk of the portals it'd be hard to imagine anything blowing down at windspeeds of less than 500 mph. On the subject of OHLE, whatever happened to the Siemens SM1 used on the Larkhall line and the Gourock line (where it replaced much of the MK II)? Why no repeat usage elsewhere?

I noticed when I did a trip last year that the Paisley Canal wiring was not a new design.
I can't remember the details but it looked similar to Mk3b to me.
Less than 5 miles of single track of course.
Maybe it had to be compatible with the rest of the lines in the area.

 

[Chris125]

The obvious difference is scope - Great Western 'electrification' is really a 'route modernisation' of a major mainline much like the WCRM, the wires themselves are just one aspect of a much wider project.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I noticed when I did a trip last year that the Paisley Canal wiring was not a new design.
I can't remember the details but it looked similar to Mk3b to me.
Less than 5 miles of single track of course.
Maybe it had to be compatible with the rest of the lines in the area.

It's essentially a slightly more modern Mk3b system, i.e with polymeric insulators.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Obviously the new electrification schemes are using Series 1 (GWML) or Series 2 (EGIP, etc). These new equipments are said to be quite expensive up front - much more so than MkIIIb which was cheaper to install but more expensive to maintain. In view of what's been happening elsewhere maybe having high initial costs wasn't the best policy after all and as for better reliability... the proof of the pudding's in the eating, although with the sheer bulk of the portals it'd be hard to imagine anything blowing down at windspeeds of less than 500 mph. On the subject of OHLE, whatever happened to the Siemens SM1 used on the Larkhall line and the Gourock line (where it replaced much of the MK II)? Why no repeat usage elsewhere?

Series 1 components are only marginally more expensive than we expect Mk3b components to be for the same order sizes, the real cost comes from not using headspans, but using proper portals and TTCs instead. That needs better foundations, as well as more heavy duty steelwork.

Series 2 is much of a muchness with Mk3b, as it's basically that plus Railtrack's old UK1 specification tidied up and made reliable.

Don't think there's much wrong with the Siemens SM1, just that NR went with Furrer+Frey who offer a better service and more experience.