Scottish Coach War?

[Fundee on Tay]

The current situation regarding coach operations in Scotland leads me to believe there is an ‘almost’ unhealthy amount of competition (ie several coaches are now lugging around fresh air).

I am specifically speaking about Dundee-Perth-Edinburgh/Glasgow here (although Aberdeen would be included if Ember ran there, possibly a near future occurrence).

From Dundee there are 3 operators running coaches: FlixBus (McGill’s), Citylink and Ember.

FlixBus is the cheapest, Citylink the most frequent and Ember slots somewhere in the middle.

However many FlixBus coaches are 80% empty and Ember and Citylink often have empty seats, yet the expansion of services still continues with Citylink running all night operations now and FlixBus introducing new routes to/from Perth despite me yet to see them run a full coach.

Thoughts?

 

[route101]

I've been on a busy flixbus from Glasgow to Aberdeen. Yes some runs are quiet, particularly the new 093 from Glasgow to Perth.

Ember services are busier than before and offer a flat fare.

Citylink don't offer as cheap fares and you have to book on megabus.com to get a cheaper fare.

Journey times are comparable to the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ember have a unique value proposition - electrification.

I'm less sure about Flix, they just seem to be mostly predatory where you see them and not really of benefit to anyone bar people with a very tight budget who need to save a few quid as a priority over the service being any good. It'll be interesting to see, though, what effect Alex Hornby having moved to McGills has on the quality aspect, as he rates that very highly, and McGills certainly aren't the sort of small coach operator of mixed repute that Flix seems to have been wooing in elsewhere.

 

[route101]

Ember have a unique value proposition - electrification.

I'm less sure about Flix, they just seem to be mostly predatory where you see them and not really of benefit to anyone bar people with a very tight budget who need to save a few quid as a priority over the service being any good. It'll be interesting to see, though, what effect Alex Hornby having moved to McGills has on the quality aspect, as he rates that very highly, and McGills certainly aren't the sort of small coach operator of mixed repute that Flix seems to have been wooing in elsewhere.

When I have used Flix in Scotland more foreign tourists and students seem to use their services. They are big brand in Europe.

You even get people using them between Glasgow and Edinburgh or Glasgow and Stirling which I can't fathom.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When I have used Flix in Scotland more foreign tourists and students seem to use their services. They are big brand in Europe.

I expect there's an element of that, just as people use Uber everywhere because they've already got the app and they're familiar with it.

 

[Fundee on Tay]

Ember have a unique value proposition - electrification.

I'm less sure about Flix, they just seem to be mostly predatory where you see them and not really of benefit to anyone bar people with a very tight budget who need to save a few quid as a priority over the service being any good. It'll be interesting to see, though, what effect Alex Hornby having moved to McGills has on the quality aspect, as he rates that very highly, and McGills certainly aren't the sort of small coach operator of mixed repute that Flix seems to have been wooing in elsewhere.

I have noticed some people, broadly those who travel end to end on Ember (rather than getting on at, say, Bridge of Earn) who state that the only reason they prefer Ember is because they are electric. A point which confuses me as just because you’re using Ember doesn’t mean that Citylink coaches are taken off the road.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have noticed some people, broadly those who travel end to end on Ember (rather than getting on at, say, Bridge of Earn) who state that the only reason they prefer Ember is because they are electric. A point which confuses me as just because you’re using Ember doesn’t mean that Citylink coaches are taken off the road.

If people switch en masse from Citylink to Ember, then one of two things will happen.

1. Citylink will reduce the number of coaches on the road by e.g. reducing frequencies, because running empty coaches doesn't make money.
2. Citylink will see that this is happening and switch to electric themselves.

That's how the market works!

 

[GusB]

It's not the first time that there have been multiple operators providing long distance services in Scotland. When express services were deregulated in the early 80s, a number of small operators tried to take a slice of the market; Newton's and Skye-Ways are just two that immediately spring to mind and, of course, the biggest "disruptor" was a little-known company called Stagecoach (hmm, I wonder whatever happened to them... ) At one point Highland Scottish operated its own express routes in competition with Citylink, and Stagecoach (it may have been Caledonian Express by then). Citylink was a result of this early competition as the incumbent Scottish Bus Group was forced to up its game.

At some point there will be consolidation and the situation will settle down again. In the meantime, enjoy any cut-price fare deals while they last!

 

[Mwanesh]

Frequency is key in coach operations.The newcomers have not really brought anything new to the market.

 

[Stan Drews]

The big driver of coach expansion in Scotland, is the fact that a significant segment of the core market travel for free, with their fares being paid by Transport Scotland!

 

[Tayway]

Ember has carved somewhat of a niche for itself by being far more passenger friendly than the competitors despite being slower for the most part – smaller, electric coaches, an easy booking interface (especially compared with the enigma that is Citylink's website), flat fares with no booking fee, bikes being allowed on-board with very little hassle, the flexibility offered by the pre-bookable stops...

Flixbus's USP is cheap fares and Citylink's is frequency, but both operators sacrifice quite a lot in pursuit in this. I would rather get the train than either of them, but with Ember it is a harder decision, especially if I'm not in a particular rush.

 

[Simon75]

I read on the forum before; one reason why coach travel in Scotland is popular is due the sparse railway network.

 

[Buzby]

It would be a mistake to overlook ember’s pull - their Yutong fleet is relatively new, comfortable and the WiFi and AirCon works. With an excellent IT system I like knowing that my Dundee trips are fully electric. The point to point timings are broadly similar. I’ve noticed the steady increase in passenger numbers since February and look forward to the launch of Inverness and Aberdeen, so more power to their elbow.

 

[roadierway77]

I agree - Citylink's new M96 service seems to exist solely for the reason of getting ahead of Ember, who previously announced their intention to extend to Aberdeen and Inverness.

Ember have set a new high standard for coach travel in Scotland, in my opinion. I'd happily choose them over Citylink any day. Their coaches are more comfortable, drivers are more friendly, fares are cheaper and don't fluctuate, and booking is easier. And that's without mentioning the benefit to the climate of zero-emission travel.

 

[Volvodart]

Bluebird had to do something as the 10 was at capacity needing duplication or double deckers. I assume that was why they stopped selling Megabus tickets for the 10.

 

[InOban]

I read on the forum before; one reason why coach travel in Scotland is popular is due the sparse railway network.

The routes being discussed all have parallel (and usually faster) train services. I think that, as suggested above, that the free tickets to those under 22 or 60+ may have a lot to do with it. There were train strikes, but apart from the few services provided by LNER or Cross Country, these are over. There are also a lot of short trains which are unpleasantly overcrowded.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I'm not sure i agree on the statement regarding the coaches "all running empty". Sure this may be the case on the new Flixbus 093 and 094 routes and some of the overnight M9s, however for the vast majority of services it's not the case.

I've travelled from Aberdeen to Edinburgh or Glasgow quite a bit over the past few months and each time I've wanted to change to Ember at Dundee to sample their service and found it is fully booked or almost fully booked so ended up opting to avoid it.

With Citylink the M9 often has a fully seated load south of Dundee even with Panorama/Astromegas, while some M92s even leave Aberdeen full. There are some M9s in the late evening that don't carry many passengers but the upcoming timetable changes will address that with a better distribution of services between the M9 and M92 in the evening that should better cater to demand and offer a slightly later service to/from Edinburgh. The biggest issue I have with the new Citylink timetables is that the first direct bus from Aberdeen to Glasgow is now at 8:05 which means you don't get in to Glasgow until after 11am - too late in my opinion if you're wanting to make a day trip and I'd rather avoid the southbound M9s via Dundee in the morning as I know from experience just how busy they get.

Regarding Flixbus, whenever I've seen the 091 or 092 at Aberdeen it has been well loaded, and whenever I've used it the coach has been at least 75% full. The main reason I don't use Flixbus more is because from Aberdeen the first southbound bus is too late while the last northbound bus is too early.

I don't actually think Ember or Flixbus have affected Citylink's passenger numbers all that much; if there was to be any loser then it's probably Scotrail. I do think Scotland is more generally seeing a coaching boom, a big part of which is as alluded to already because of the Under 22 free travel scheme and certainly if the current trend continues then it's clearly disproving the long held view that Scotland doesn't have the demand for multiple operators on the long distance coach network.

Bluebird had to do something as the 10 was at capacity needing duplication or double deckers. I assume that was why they stopped selling Megabus tickets for the 10.

They did for a while operate short workings in the afternoon to Huntly timetabled 5 minutes ahead of the main Inverness service, however in reality due to vehicle shortages at the time the short workings would often end up running empty behind the full length Inverness service which in turn would be fully loaded. The M96 is long overdue and a step in the right direction but the timetable isn't that great due to it being entirely operated by Elgin depot. Ideally it would've been better had just two buses operated from Elgin with the other two operating from Aberdeen and Inverness respectively allowing for earlier and later full length Aberdeen - Inverness runs. The main reason the service is being entirely operated by Elgin was because at the time it was the only depot with sufficient driver numbers.

 

[johncrossley]

I read on the forum before; one reason why coach travel in Scotland is popular is due the sparse railway network.

Compared to England, trains have less of a speed and frequency advantage over coaches, plus the road network is not as congested, meaning that coach journey times are more predictable than in England.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Compared to England, trains have less of a speed and frequency advantage over coaches, plus the road network is not as congested, meaning that coach journey times are more predictable than in England.

Coaches do work to fill some gaps in England - they work fine for e.g. Railair and the Stagecoach Oxford-Bedford X5 and Luton Airport 99 were fine with coaches for years. These have now gone away for a couple of reasons - East West Rail is likely to kill or massively change the X5 (if you wanted me to predict, I reckon Stagecoach will abandon Buckingham-Bedford entirely leaving the Arriva X60, and they will either abandon Buckingham to Bicester leaving no service at all or will extend an hourly S5 back to Buckingham), and as part of the sale of the Bristol Falcon routes they wanted the coaches for that route.

But yes, rail is weaker in Scotland, though I bet electrification via Falkirk will have made a big dent in Citylink's passenger numbers.

 

[route101]

I'm not sure i agree on the statement regarding the coaches "all running empty". Sure this may be the case on the new Flixbus 093 and 094 routes and some of the overnight M9s, however for the vast majority of services it's not the case.

I've travelled from Aberdeen to Edinburgh or Glasgow quite a bit over the past few months and each time I've wanted to change to Ember at Dundee to sample their service and found it is fully booked or almost fully booked so ended up opting to avoid it.

With Citylink the M9 often has a fully seated load south of Dundee even with Panorama/Astromegas, while some M92s even leave Aberdeen full. There are some M9s in the late evening that don't carry many passengers but the upcoming timetable changes will address that with a better distribution of services between the M9 and M92 in the evening that should better cater to demand and offer a slightly later service to/from Edinburgh. The biggest issue I have with the new Citylink timetables is that the first direct bus from Aberdeen to Glasgow is now at 8:05 which means you don't get in to Glasgow until after 11am - too late in my opinion if you're wanting to make a day trip and I'd rather avoid the southbound M9s via Dundee in the morning as I know from experience just how busy they get.

Regarding Flixbus, whenever I've seen the 091 or 092 at Aberdeen it has been well loaded, and whenever I've used it the coach has been at least 75% full. The main reason I don't use Flixbus more is because from Aberdeen the first southbound bus is too late while the last northbound bus is too early.

I don't actually think Ember or Flixbus have affected Citylink's passenger numbers all that much; if there was to be any loser then it's probably Scotrail. I do think Scotland is more generally seeing a coaching boom, a big part of which is as alluded to already because of the Under 22 free travel scheme and certainly if the current trend continues then it's clearly disproving the long held view that Scotland doesn't have the demand for multiple operators on the long distance coach network.

They did for a while operate short workings in the afternoon to Huntly timetabled 5 minutes ahead of the main Inverness service, however in reality due to vehicle shortages at the time the short workings would often end up running empty behind the full length Inverness service which in turn would be fully loaded. The M96 is long overdue and a step in the right direction but the timetable isn't that great due to it being entirely operated by Elgin depot. Ideally it would've been better had just two buses operated from Elgin with the other two operating from Aberdeen and Inverness respectively allowing for earlier and later full length Aberdeen - Inverness runs. The main reason the service is being entirely operated by Elgin was because at the time it was the only depot with sufficient driver numbers.

From what I have seen the Flixbus 094 is carrying better loads than the 093 which currently runs twice a day.

I see the first Southbound Flixbus most mornings on the M80, not sure where it starts but looks empty.

Yes, that's the problem with coaches, they sell out. On a day return to Aberdeen I may not know exactly when I am coming back. Citylink used to offer cheaper advance fares but not seen them in a while.

I am not sure if the M96 is a Citylink route or Stagecoach Route?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jun 2023 ==

Frequency is key in coach operations.The newcomers have not really brought anything new to the market.

There is only so much they can do in terms of routes. The 902 is one that offers something different.