Scotrail Turbostars moving to Southern

[Chrisgr31]

In my experience as a passenger the A/C on Southerns 171's has always been temperamental in very high temperatures particularly when the train is heavily loaded.

As regards cab door interlock would that be because Southern drivers are not used to slamming the door?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Do Turbostars use the same aircon system/setup as Electrostars?

 

[aleggatta]

As regards cab door interlock would that be because Southern drivers are not used to slamming the door?

The original 377's don't have air assisted doors, but not sure on how drivers are distributed with the 171's and if they have dual/multi traction knowledge... so it might be possible they have never had to close the cab door that has a decal next to it stating something along the lines of 'close firmly to prevent interlock issues'...

 

[tsr]

Or cab door interlock problems. Never had a problem in 16 years!

The last I heard was that every cab of the newly acquired units has had door issues at some point during Southern's operation of them.

I have no definite reason to offer but your comment makes it sound like an issue has occurred during refurbishment. I wonder if there has been a problem with the fit of the doors after repairs to weather-related damage. If the structures around the cabs had a similar level of deterioration to the corrosion found elsewhere (and I have been assured that it was appalling) I would not be surprised.

In my experience as a passenger the A/C on Southerns 171's has always been temperamental in very high temperatures particularly when the train is heavily loaded.

As regards cab door interlock would that be because Southern drivers are not used to slamming the door?

If the cab interlock is achieved immediately after a harder slam of the door, then probably, yes. But then there have been what I can only describe as weird and wonderful issues, including one where a driver changed ends within the unit only to find that the door next to them had lost interlock, having been at the opposite end and not having been touched during the previous journey or during changing ends.

Do Turbostars use the same aircon system/setup as Electrostars?

It's not the same as GTR Electrostars. I can't comment regarding the rest of them!

The original 377's don't have air assisted doors, but not sure on how drivers are distributed with the 171's and if they have dual/multi traction knowledge... so it might be possible they have never had to close the cab door that has a decal next to it stating something along the lines of 'close firmly to prevent interlock issues'...

All drivers who sign 171s also sign 377s. That would include regular use of the older 377s with unassisted cab doors.

However, they certainly would not used to be used a lack of assisted doors on 171s.

 

[FordFocus]

The original 377's don't have air assisted doors, but not sure on how drivers are distributed with the 171's and if they have dual/multi traction knowledge... so it might be possible they have never had to close the cab door that has a decal next to it stating something along the lines of 'close firmly to prevent interlock issues'...

They should have a red interlock light above the cab door onto the drop down panel to show it's the state of the interlock. It wasn't on the original builds I believe but was later retrofitted.

 

[Helvellyn]

I have no definite reason to offer but your comment makes it sound like an issue has occurred during refurbishment. I wonder if there has been a problem with the fit of the doors after repairs to weather-related damage. If the structures around the cabs had a similar level of deterioration to the corrosion found elsewhere (and I have been assured that it was appalling) I would not be surprised.

It's not the first time corrosion repairs have been mentioned in conjunction with the conversion of the ex-ScotRail 170s to 171s. This was also the case with the Class 460 to Class 458 conversion for SWT (helping put that programme massively behind schedule). Common theme - both unit types have ribbon glazing.

Makes you wonder what the rest of the TurboStar and ElectroStar fleet with ribbon glazing would look like if fully stripped down to the bodyshells.

 

[scotraildriver]

They should have a red interlock light above the cab door onto the drop down panel to show it's the state of the interlock. It wasn't on the original builds I believe but was later retrofitted.

They do
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It's not the first time corrosion repairs have been mentioned in conjunction with the conversion of the ex-ScotRail 170s to 171s. This was also the case with the Class 460 to Class 458 conversion for SWT (helping put that programme massively behind schedule). Common theme - both unit types have ribbon glazing.

Makes you wonder what the rest of the TurboStar and ElectroStar fleet with ribbon glazing would look like if fully stripped down to the bodyshells.

It is a worry if they were THAT bad. Considering the rest of the batch continue to run around flat out for up to 20 hours a day with few issues I just wonder what the real issues are. Did the transfer specify an upgrade to "as new" standard or am I about to fall through the floor of a heavily rusted cab?

 

[Chrisgr31]

It is a worry if they were THAT bad. Considering the rest of the batch continue to run around flat out for up to 20 hours a day with few issues I just wonder what the real issues are. Did the transfer specify an upgrade to "as new" standard or am I about to fall through the floor of a heavily rusted cab?

Sorry I did laugh when I read that as I imagined you dropping through the floor!

I must admit I really don't understand how the units were in service with Scotrail running around until they came south, but once they arrived south they suddenly needed so much work (excluding the conversion to 2 and 4 cars).

As you say the rest of them are still running around in Scotland so what is happening?

 

[scotraildriver]

Even the "conversion " confuses me. These units can and have run in 2 and 4 car formation here in Scotland on several occasions when vehicles were out of service. No work was required. They work like that perfectly well. Just don't get it.

 

[Chrisgr31]

On a different thread

171s (not 170s, GTR don't have any of those now) also can't run DOO if door deselect is required, which is quite a big deal given that most of the intermediate stations between London Bridge and Hurst Green (barring East Croydon) would require it on any formation longer than 4 coaches, and at Oxted you may end up needing it on anything longer than 2. Obviously this means they could not stop out of course under DOO, which is rather an issue if the train is unable to continue and needs to be detrained at any of the numerous intermediate stations.

Unless a lot of rewiring happens, the door deselect issue will not go away, and until it does you will always need a second person who can open and close the doors.

This raises a slightly interesting question regarding the 10 car units. How does one de-train them at intermediate stations? They will not fit and the with no gangway access some passengers wont be able to get off.
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Even the "conversion " confuses me. These units can and have run in 2 and 4 car formation here in Scotland on several occasions when vehicles were out of service. No work was required. They work like that perfectly well. Just don't get it.

Didn't know that. In my opinion and many others, they would have been better left as 3 car units, Would be better for the off-peak service, better for Marshlink if down there, and 9 units on all peak Uckfield services better than 10 on some.

Ah well

 

[Kite159]

Had a little trip on 171202 earlier this morning (it was working the 10:15 East Croydon - Uckfield so a trip to Upper Warlingham was called for), the declassified 1st class end was nice and comfy (and empty, with 'normal' passengers not realising it isn't 1st class).

Only thing which sprung out was the lights in the passenger saloon weren't on so when the unit went through Riddlesdown Tunnel it was rather dark inside.

 

[JonathanH]

Is 171201 out and about yet? If not, where is it?

Yesterday, the 'new' units weren't having the best of evenings.

171804+171401+171202 formed 5E43 1455 Selhurst T&R.S.M.D to London Bridge so presumably had worked together in the morning peak.

171202 formed 1E43 1538 London Bridge to Uckfield but only got as far as East Croydon - returning to Selhurst depot after developing a fault.

171724 then arrived from Uckfield as 1E40 1434 Uckfield to London Bridge to join 171401 and 171804 for 1E45 1608 London Bridge to Uckfield. The joining up at London Bridge appeared to go fine but then the service was then delayed with a door fault.

1E45 departed at 1621, 13 minutes late and behind the 1618 to Tattenham Corner but was put past that at Norwood Junction. However, it then was delayed a further 25 minutes at East Croydon and presumably ended up at East Grinstead having been passed by the next Uckfield train at East Croydon.

Two Uckfield trains therefore cancelled in a row. However, the next working of the units off 1E45 (1908 from London Bridge / 2034 from Uckfield) seem to have gone fine.

Have 171201 and 171202 been to the Marsh yet or are they staying on Uckfield services?

 

[Class377/5]

Even the "conversion " confuses me. These units can and have run in 2 and 4 car formation here in Scotland on several occasions when vehicles were out of service. No work was required. They work like that perfectly well. Just don't get it.

That's because the units Scotland has are compatible with each other. Southern's ones were not compatible. That's an issue with the build. Its a similar point where the 377 fleet will neevr work with the 387 fleet due to changes made by Bombardier meaning there is a hardware compatibility issue.

Even having separate fleets would make it fairly pointless with the limited numbers of units coming down. They needed to work with the existing fleet.

 

[physics34]

Is 171201 out and about yet? If not, where is it?

Yesterday, the 'new' units weren't having the best of evenings.

171804+171401+171202 formed 5E43 1455 Selhurst T&R.S.M.D to London Bridge so presumably had worked together in the morning peak.

171202 formed 1E43 1538 London Bridge to Uckfield but only got as far as East Croydon - returning to Selhurst depot after developing a fault.

171724 then arrived from Uckfield as 1E40 1434 Uckfield to London Bridge to join 171401 and 171804 for 1E45 1608 London Bridge to Uckfield. The joining up at London Bridge appeared to go fine but then the service was then delayed with a door fault.

1E45 departed at 1621, 13 minutes late and behind the 1618 to Tattenham Corner but was put past that at Norwood Junction. However, it then was delayed a further 25 minutes at East Croydon and presumably ended up at East Grinstead having been passed by the next Uckfield train at East Croydon.

Two Uckfield trains therefore cancelled in a row. However, the next working of the units off 1E45 (1908 from London Bridge / 2034 from Uckfield) seem to have gone fine.

Have 171201 and 171202 been to the Marsh yet or are they staying on Uckfield services?

171201 is still in selhurst depot undergoing work i think.

171202 hasnt ventured down to the Marshlink yet due to not enough Eastbourne based drivers haivng done the conversion course.

Had 402 on the 23.04 LBG to Uckfield last night and apart from the PIS it ran fine.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Wasnt a great day for 171's today.

The 7.34 or whatever it is was 2 coaches instead of 4. In the meantime the 6.35 or whatever it is left Uckfield as 10 but had issues on route. It was eventually cancelled at Norwood Junction on its way back to Uckfield to create the 9.30ish up.

Guessing thats why the 18:06 LBG to Uck was 6 carriages. I understand its meant to be 10 but hasnt been once so far this week.

 

[physics34]

Wasnt a great day for 171's today.

The 7.34 or whatever it is was 2 coaches instead of 4. In the meantime the 6.35 or whatever it is left Uckfield as 10 but had issues on route. It was eventually cancelled at Norwood Junction on its way back to Uckfield to create the 9.30ish up.

Guessing thats why the 18:06 LBG to Uck was 6 carriages. I understand its meant to be 10 but hasnt been once so far this week.

was driving the 18.06 again. Advertised as first stop Oxted at London Bridge.

 

[Kite159]

was driving the 18.06 again. Advertised as first stop Oxted at London Bridge.

Bet it didn't stop some of the East Croydon crowd boarding it

 

[Chrisgr31]

Bet it didn't stop some of the East Croydon crowd boarding it

No because they know it needs to stop to pick passengers up.

Today it didnt run at all, crew shortage. It was meant to be 10 coaches long this week it was cancelled once, 6 once and 8 twice.

 

[physics34]

No because they know it needs to stop to pick passengers up.

Today it didnt run at all, crew shortage. It was meant to be 10 coaches long this week it was cancelled once, 6 once and 8 twice.

I got moved from the 18.06 onto the 19.08 this evening.

 

[Chrisgr31]

I got moved from the 18.06 onto the 19.08 this evening.

Interesting. Wonder if there was no guard so no point you driving it or they deliberately cancelled it. It didnt run as the 15.08 as that was cancelled so they might have decided to leave it in the depot. Was cancelled late as wasnt on the Southern site as cancelled when I checked

 

[physics34]

Interesting. Wonder if there was no guard so no point you driving it or they deliberately cancelled it. It didnt run as the 15.08 as that was cancelled so they might have decided to leave it in the depot. Was cancelled late as wasnt on the Southern site as cancelled when I checked

Yeh I think that was it. The 15.08 was definitely cancelled due to no crew. Oddly, i wouldve had time after booking on to take the stock out of the depot, up to London Bridge. Maybe it was the lack.of a guard then

 

[03_179]

Is 171201 out and about yet? If not, where is it?

It's currently still in cleaning shed at Selhurst. (4 road)

Will be out very soon.

 

[Chrisgr31]

It's currently still in cleaning shed at Selhurst. (4 road)

Will be out very soon.

Guessing it will be out tomorrow, as it would appear it is due in service on Monday!

Incidentally whilst reliability of the 171 fleet may not be great at present the longer platforms do seem to have improved timekeeping on the 18:06 LBG, well assuming it arrives at LBG, runs and doesn't get stuck behind a late stopping service to EGR!

 

[JonathanH]

Guessing it will be out tomorrow, as it would appear it is due in service on Monday!

What makes you so certain? Does this relate to the final element of strengthening?

 

[Chrisgr31]

What makes you so certain? Does this relate to the final element of strengthening?

Well the 18:06 LBG to UCK is due to be 10 carriages as from Monday, those 2 carriages have to come from somewhere!

 

[swt class 450]

On Tuesday (20/9/2016) there was an Uckfield line train that was short formed from 10 coaches to 2 coaches!

 

[TheBigD]

What's the plan for the other 5 x 3car 170's when they arrive from Scotland next year (or possibly 2018)???

 

[JonathanH]

What's the plan for the other 5 x 3car 170's when they arrive from Scotland next year (or possibly 2018)???

Reports suggest that they aren't coming. Firstly, a contract has been let for them to be painted in Scotrail livery and secondly the 2018 GTR consultation says that no further diesel trains are available to increase the service on either the Marshlink or Uckfield lines.

It would be interesting to know how it was planned to use them.

 

[Chrisgr31]

On Tuesday (20/9/2016) there was an Uckfield line train that was short formed from 10 coaches to 2 coaches!

Ahh that was an improvement as it was initially advertised as cancelled! So 2 cars better than nothing!

 

[tsr]

Ahh that was an improvement as it was initially advertised as cancelled! So 2 cars better than nothing!

Apparently no driver was available to move the remainder of the stock, so it couldn't be attached to anything else. And it probably couldn't have gone back to Selhurst to do an attachment either, if the 2 coach train would then have been at the London end of the formation (not permitted for 10 coach 171 formations reversing at Norwood Junction, due to a lack of walk-through gangways and the position of the train during shunting - and as the inbound would have terminated at East Croydon and the outbound would have had to restart there, in order to give time for attachment in the yard, that's the move which could well have been needed).

One suggestion is that the lack of a driver was caused by a couple of them being unexpectedly delayed in doing the conversion course on the refurbished units.