Scotrail Turbostars moving to Southern

[physics34]

So are the converted units identical to the originals?

If not, any pictures?

there is a photo of the 2 car in southern l;ivery a few pages backon this thread.

The headlight/tailight clusters are different on the ex-scotrail units compared to the 171/7s and 8s.

NO other differences except very minor ones,

 

[class387]

there is a photo of the 2 car in southern l;ivery a few pages backon this thread.

The headlight/tailight clusters are different on the ex-scotrail units compared to the 171/7s and 8s.

NO other differences except very minor ones,

Sorry, meant interior. But pretty much answers my query anyway.

 

[physics34]

Sorry, meant interior. But pretty much answers my query anyway.

Same inside. Just minor differences.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Had my conversion course on them the other day.

The 2x 2cars (171201, 202) are 1st class one end only like the 171/7s, but they have left the seating in so you have a disclassified section with first class seating at one end. If i was a punter id aim for these seats

THere are other difference in the cab and different procedures if an engine fails.

first run VERY close.

So this leads to a different question. How is the driver notified when an enging stops and how does he start it. I assumed it was automatic but it seems not. How does it work when the train is formed of Class 171 ane ex class 170 units

 

[physics34]

So this leads to a different question. How is the driver notified when an enging stops and how does he start it. I assumed it was automatic but it seems not. How does it work when the train is formed of Class 171 ane ex class 170 units

It's all buttons and fault lights in the cab. Driver manually starts engines if they stop.

Both types of unit will work similarly together, but if a 170 engine fails the unit will have to come out of service as when the batteries run out there will be no power to doors or lighting. 171s share the power distribution within the unit if an engine fails, the scotrail 170s do not.

 

[Clansman]

Just for curiosity sake, are the first class seats the original (and slightly larger) design that originally came with the Scotrail Class 170 in 1999 (same type as used on FTPE and AGA) or are did Southern change them to the (smaller) declassifiable ones that are currently used on the current Southern 171s (XC, and some Scotrail units)?

 

[physics34]

Just for curiosity sake, are the first class seats the original (and slightly larger) design that originally came with the Scotrail Class 170 in 1999 (same type as used on FTPE and AGA) or are did Southern change them to the (smaller) declassifiable ones that are currently used on the current Southern 171s (XC, and some Scotrail units)?

The original larger ones now with southern seat covers

 

[Ayman Ilham]

I thought the Scotrail Turbostars will be going to Northern (to start a Leeds to Southport service and take over the Harrogate line services)

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I thought the Scotrail Turbostars will be going to Northern (to start a Leeds to Southport service and take over the Harrogate line services)

They're being released in batches, essentially as a result of the ongoing electrification works.

The first batch went off-lease at the end of the First ScotRail franchise, some moved immediately to Southern, others are leased by Southern and sub-leased back to Abellio ScotRail (the current franchisee).

There will be a second batch of units released by further electrification (Edinburgh to Glasgow via Falkirk - EGIP and the Stirling-Alloa-Dunblane rolling electrification works) and they will go to Northern. The electrification works will release more units than will actually cascade to Northern, ScotRail is retaining more units than initially envisioned due to passenger numbers/demand. The Borders Railway in particular is much busier than expected, but growth elsewhere remains strong.

 

[D365]

Northern signed an agreement on 16x 170. The remaining 13 units were later agreed to be retained by ScotRail, with the five currently sub-leased by Southern due to transfer soon.

 

[physics34]

Northern signed an agreement on 16x 170. The remaining 13 units were later agreed to be retained by ScotRail, with the five currently sub-leased by Southern due to transfer soon.

I'm not sure southern want the remaining 5 as the work required to refurbishment the current 4 units has been a lot more than first thought.

 

[Class377/5]

It's all buttons and fault lights in the cab. Driver manually starts engines if they stop.

Both types of unit will work similarly together, but if a 170 engine fails the unit will have to come out of service as when the batteries run out there will be no power to doors or lighting. 171s share the power distribution within the unit if an engine fails, the scotrail 170s do not.

Er 171 don't Crossfeed (that's what it's called) between units. That's not how the technology works. Basically one coach can feed another but it's preset and not interchangeable. It cannot be transfered between units.

 

[physics34]

Er 171 don't Crossfeed (that's what it's called) between units. That's not how the technology works. Basically one coach can feed another but it's preset and not interchangeable. It cannot be transfered between units.

Ha ha I know, I've had 3 engines out of 6 fail on me at one time (both in the 2 car!) In the past.
Maybe my wording was a bit wrong. "Within" a unit they do but between units they do not. The scotrail ones don't even Crossfeed "within" a unit..

 

[physics34]

171202 and 402 were meant to run a test train today but hit a snag
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
171202 and 402 test run tomorrow...

Selhurst Depot - Uckfield, Uckfield to East Grinstead (changing ends at Oxted), East Grinstead to Uckfield (changing ends at Oxted), Uckfield to Selhurst Depot

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/X53091/2016/07/17/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/X53092/2016/07/17/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/X53093/2016/07/17/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/X53094/2016/07/17/advanced

 

[Techniquest]

About friggin' time these things entered service, it's been a long wait!

 

[OxtedL]

They are out as a 10-car with 171803, the 2-car in the middle.

 

[RPM]

Ha ha I know, I've had 3 engines out of 6 fail on me at one time (both in the 2 car!) In the past.
Maybe my wording was a bit wrong. "Within" a unit they do but between units they do not. The scotrail ones don't even Crossfeed "within" a unit..

That's because the crossfeed function was only added to the Turbostar range towards the end of the build. It's left Chiltern with a similar situation, whereby the 168/2s have crossfeed but the 168/0s, 168/1s and 168/3s don't.

 

[physics34]

About friggin' time these things entered service, it's been a long wait!

had alot more work needed on them than first realised. We can blame scotrail for that
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's because the crossfeed function was only added to the Turbostar range towards the end of the build. It's left Chiltern with a similar situation, whereby the 168/2s have crossfeed but the 168/0s, 168/1s and 168/3s don't.

there will be occasions where a 10 car (formed of an ex Scotrailrail unit) will have to come out of service because 1 engine (out of 10/on the scotrail unit) fails!

NOt ideal!

 

[Techniquest]

That's ridiculous regarding the engine thing!

As for it taking longer than planned, well we *could* blame ScotRail for it...however we could (and I am) planning Southern for not doing a thorough enough examination of the job at hand before taking it on. How I'd have done it would have been something like this:

- Send engineers to Scotland to examine each and every inch of the 170s they would be receiving, armed with a checklist of absolutely every single thing that would need attention.

- Ask said engineers to provide a timescale for how long it would take to fix everything.

- Receive the 170s, assuming the engineers were satisfied

- Announce publically the plan to refurbish the lot, based on the timescales given by the examinations, but plan for Worst Case Scenario and add an additional time per unit. If the job was therefore finished early, it would look so much better than an enormous over-run.

As they say, failing to plan is planning to fail...

 

[scotraildriver]

there will be occasions where a 10 car (formed of an ex Scotrailrail unit) will have to come out of service because 1 engine (out of 10/on the scotrail unit) fails!

No it won't. Just isolate the engine in question then lock the affected coach out of use. It can still run about as a trailer. The brakes will still release as long as the engine is isolated.

 

[physics34]

there will be occasions where a 10 car (formed of an ex Scotrailrail unit) will have to come out of service because 1 engine (out of 10/on the scotrail unit) fails!

No it won't. Just isolate the engine in question then lock the affected coach out of use. It can still run about as a trailer. The brakes will still release as long as the engine is isolated.

when the battery runs out in the affected coach, Interlock will be lost. I was under the impression train would need to be TIS'd to then get the brakes off?

 

[scotraildriver]

No, if the engine is isolated and doors locked out of use interlock is retained. Happens all the time. It is a problem if it is an end vehicle though as no head or tail lamps which is why we have a good supply of proper temporary headlamps! A bardic lamp will suffice as a tail.

 

[tsr]

No, if the engine is isolated and doors locked out of use interlock is retained. Happens all the time. It is a problem if it is an end vehicle though as no head or tail lamps which is why we have a good supply of proper temporary headlamps! A bardic lamp will suffice as a tail.

Whether or not this is correct, this will not be the procedure with the Southern ex-170 units; they will be taken out of use and sent back to Selhurst should an engine not be able to be restarted.

If battery power or other power does not allow external lighting to function on that journey, obviously handlamps or the emergency portable taillamps (stored at certain key locations) would need to be used as appropriate.

On 171s, door interlock can be lost in a vehicle even if the doors are manually locked OOU (this should apply to saloon doors only, not cab doors). Maybe it is something to do with being made compatible with that.

 

[scotraildriver]

Whether or not this is correct, this will not be the procedure with the Southern ex-170 units; they will be taken out of use and sent back to Selhurst should an engine not be able to be restarted.

If battery power or other power does not allow external lighting to function on that journey, obviously handlamps or the emergency portable taillamps (stored at certain key locations) would need to be used as appropriate.

On 171s, door interlock can be lost in a vehicle even if the doors are manually locked OOU (this should apply to saloon doors only, not cab doors). Maybe it is something to do with being made compatible with that.

If so then that would appear to be a very retrograde step. I have been driving these units since their introduction in 1999 and stopped engines has always been a relatively common occurence. Isolate the engine and doors and carry on has always been the procedure. Sometimes units run about like this for many hours or even days in a 6 car formation. If Southern are going to remove a unit from service every time an engine cannot be restarted good luck to them. Loss of run signal, oil and coolant sensor issues are so common it's ridiculous.

 

[Blindtraveler]

IMO this simply highlights how crap these trains are does it not?????? Whilst I accept the scotrail omes work very hard I didmt think theyd be in such poor shape as Southerm claim and Id guess the blame game has been/will b e played to decide who was at fault between Scotrail not saying how bad they were vs southern underestimating the scale of work.

 

[scotraildriver]

It does make me wonder. Considering our units from the same batch (170401-405 so far) are undergoing C6 overhaul and interior refurbishment in under 4 weeks per unit at Brodies Kilmarnock. Now I appreciate the Southern ones underwent further modifications but either I am running about at 100mph every day in a train about the fall to bits, or Southern are making a meal of it. I wonder.....

 

[Blindtraveler]

It does make me wonder. Considering our units from the same batch (170401-405 so far) are undergoing C6 overhaul and interior refurbishment in under 4 weeks per unit at Brodies Kilmarnock. Now I appreciate the Southern ones underwent further modifications but either I am running about at 100mph every day in a train about the fall to bits, or Southern are making a meal of it. I wonder.....

Im no fan of Southern or Scotrail at the moment but my experience of Southerns fleat standards in terms of upkeep is good but could be cleaner. IMO Scotrail dont care and were facing trouble longterm plus I have never held the 170s in high regard so yes, the potentially flawed 100mph dashes round Scotland on work often unsuited to the traction continue
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh and that refurb is a lot less than would expect for an up to 17 year old train, just like the state the 158s are in is shocking, same goes for the 320s and 156s

 

[physics34]

If so then that would appear to be a very retrograde step. I have been driving these units since their introduction in 1999 and stopped engines has always been a relatively common occurence. Isolate the engine and doors and carry on has always been the procedure. Sometimes units run about like this for many hours or even days in a 6 car formation. If Southern are going to remove a unit from service every time an engine cannot be restarted good luck to them. Loss of run signal, oil and coolant sensor issues are so common it's ridiculous.

So this seems to be a difference between the newer 171s a and older 170s. Maybe Southern are unaware that you can still get the brakes off if a 170 engine fails and batteries die.

Maybe Southern are assuming that because they don't cross feed, then there is no battery charging or power for interlock avaliable.

 

[RPM]

So this seems to be a difference between the newer 171s a and older 170s. Maybe Southern are unaware that you can still get the brakes off if a 170 engine fails and batteries die.

Maybe Southern are assuming that because they don't cross feed, then there is no battery charging or power for interlock avaliable.

Sounds like it. It's not a problem with 168s.

 

[scotraildriver]

Oh and that refurb is a lot less than would expect for an up to 17 year old train, just like the state the 158s are in is shocking, same goes for the 320s and 156s[/QUOTE]

What would you want? Personally I think they look great,almost new. New carpet,seat covers,sockets st every seat,reconditioned air con,remote CCTV, refurbished toilets and even new catering trolleys.