Scotrail Super Off-Peak

[TUC]

Is there any kind of regulatory requirement upon TOCs which requires them to offer the full range of available tickets to accredited retailers?

 

[Gonzoiku]

I was very surprised to read about this here, it was the first I knew about it. I'm on a route which benefits from this, Tweedbank to Edinburgh, and for Old Dears like me the difference is noticeable. The normal railcard discounted day return is £9.65 and the Super Off Peak day return is £7.70. The single is £9.05. Moreover it is useful for me since I do go to gigs and rugby matches in Edinburgh and come back on the penultimate or last train of the evening. Now I was clearly taking at face value the multiple indications in the App that such and such ticket is "Cheapest" and that buying online is "Best value", that my Smartcard ensures I get the best ticket. In the FAQ there isn't the question "Does buying online get you the cheapest fare" (answer: no), but there is a chunk about buying about buying before you board / fare evasion. TWB is unstaffed, as is the case for all stations on the route until Waverley. It is common practice to buy onboard, though, notwithstanding the multiple TVMs.

I will send in a complaint.

While I had not seen this thread, I did manage to buy a Super Off Prag dag return for a trip on the HML a fewxeeeks back, having seen the fard on brfares.com. Of course, the TVM did not offer it, do on the the Inverness ticket office, who explained clearly the onerous restrictions, and asked where I had learned of such a fare!

As you found, it was cheaper than a single, si the return restrictions were of no consequence, and as for the outbound - it was already after 11am!

GZ

 

[route101]

Never understood the super off peak. Just another confusing option with different restrictions and too late for a day trip.

 

[TUC]

Never understood the super off peak. Just another confusing option with different restrictions and too late for a day trip.

It's always preferable to have it as an option rather than having to pay more, isn't it?

Besides, the conditions are not hard to understand.

 

[megabusser]

Here is the main text of the reply from Scotrail, ignoring the core point that they advertise tickets as incorrectly being "Lowest price" or "best buy" when on some trains it is always cheaper to buy on board or use Tap and Pay.
===
All Train Operating Companies including ScotRail adhere to the National Rail Conditions of Travel, which is governed by ATOC (The Association of Train Operating Companies).

We are making buying a ticket before you board recommended to customers - at our stations, online, over the phone and at self-service ticket vending machines.

However, please be advised this does not apply to customers using concession cards, who do not have a booking office at their local station or it is closed. Concession cards have different discounts per council area and zonal region, therefore require a ticket office clerk or conductor to accurately administer the ticket. As it stands, these discounts are only valid via terms and conditions through either of those purchase methods.

Apologies for any inconvenience this may cause.

Once again thank you for contacting ScotRail, should you need any further assistance in the future, please get back in touch.

That reply makes no sense - it’s not like a consessionsry fare that’s only available to select people, but a fare available to all. Did you follow up?

The app should really show the fare and highlight that it’s only available from ticket offices (if they insist on restricting sales this way, which I don’t think they should!).

I just realise that I forgot about it again this week and bought an off-peak when super off-peak would have been valid as it doesn’t show up as an option.

 

[TUC]

Here is the main text of the reply from Scotrail, ignoring the core point that they advertise tickets as incorrectly being "Lowest price" or "best buy" when on some trains it is always cheaper to buy on board or use Tap and Pay.
===
All Train Operating Companies including ScotRail adhere to the National Rail Conditions of Travel, which is governed by ATOC (The Association of Train Operating Companies).

We are making buying a ticket before you board recommended to customers - at our stations, online, over the phone and at self-service ticket vending machines.

However, please be advised this does not apply to customers using concession cards, who do not have a booking office at their local station or it is closed. Concession cards have different discounts per council area and zonal region, therefore require a ticket office clerk or conductor to accurately administer the ticket. As it stands, these discounts are only valid via terms and conditions through either of those purchase methods.

Apologies for any inconvenience this may cause.

Once again thank you for contacting ScotRail, should you need any further assistance in the future, please get back in touch.

I am left wondering whether people who write replies like this which do not answer the question are unintelligent or being deliberately evasive?

 

[Wallsendmag]

How long ago did ATOC morph to RDG?

 

[smsm1]

How long ago did ATOC morph to RDG?

According to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_Delivery_Group 27 October 2017.

 

[alistairlees]

I think ATOC is still the company name, though?

 

[Watershed]

I think ATOC is still the company name, though?

Indeed it is, legally speaking.

 

[Wallsendmag]

RDG is mentioned in the latest NRCOT but ATOC isn't

 

[Watershed]

RDG is mentioned in the latest NRCOT but ATOC isn't

If you want to be that pedantic, Rail Settlement Plan Ltd is listed as the author of the NRCoT.

 

[Pushpit]

That reply makes no sense - it’s not like a consessionsry fare that’s only available to select people, but a fare available to all. Did you follow up?

The app should really show the fare and highlight that it’s only available from ticket offices (if they insist on restricting sales this way, which I don’t think they should!).

No, I did not follow up with ScotRail. But with my unsolicited survey from the ORR, I did explain that while I considered the reply to processed in a reasonable timeframe (8 days) and that the reply was polite, I did in multiple questions give the lowest mark for accuracy, for answering my complaint, understanding my complaint and several similar shades of the same thing.

The reply was clearly a standard cut and paste, the nearest they could find to my wording but still wildly off my complaint's focus, and didn't answer (for example) whether Our Price Promise applies if the ticket sold was not the cheapest available. For the ORR I'm sure it just gets averaged into some big chart and I'm not expecting to hear more. You can tell from my posts in this forum that my choice of language is usually clear and specific, so it was just lazy customer relations from ScotRail. I suspect that having an address in England didn't help, they could not have been so sloppy with an EH postcode.

In terms of not following up with ScotRail, the problem was that having now read up about this in this forum (so I stress my thanks to this community), I'm not going to face any personal damage. I know all about it now. So my complaint would amount to whataboutery, and I won't do that.

 

[Furrball]

The app should really show the fare and highlight that it’s only available from ticket offices (if they insist on restricting sales this way, which I don’t think they should!)

Following the changes to operating hours for ticket offices in many cases they are now closed during validity of super off peak tickets...

 

[megabusser]

Following the changes to operating hours for ticket offices in many cases they are now closed during validity of super off peak tickets...

I should have said ticket office or on-train. These kinds of notices about ‘buy before you board’ are now rather misleading when super off-peak is available from conductors but not ticket vending machines.

Is it still the case that conductors shouldn’t sell off-peaks if customers could have bought before boarding? In which case they can sell anytimes and super off-peaks, but not standard off-peaks!

 

[GregSRHST]

Do we know if there are any rhyme or reason to which routes the ScotRail super off peak tickets are available?

I often travel from Dundee to Aberdeen and use a super off peak (split at Stonehaven, because it's significantly cheaper).

Today annoyingly the train I want to take from Dundee to Aberdeen doesn't stop at Stonehaven. I (rather stupidly it seems, but I had previously had this confirmed that I could do it) assumed that not to worry, I'll split at Montrose and get a small amount of money off. But it turns out that you cannot get super off peaks from Montrose to Aberdeen OR from Dundee to Aberdeen straight through. I ended up with a super off peak return to Montrose then a normal off peak form Montrose to Aberdeen...which is no real significant saving.

I checked BRfares.com and right enough. No super off peaks between Dundee and Aberdeen or Montrose and Aberdeen.

I thought these tickets were straight forward to understand (and I'd say I understand ticketing better than most of the public...mainly split ticketing) but today I looked like a big idiot at the ticket booth. Where the lady was very helpful...but contradicted previous advice that I was given that any route with off peak pricing I could get super off peak pricing.

At least the weather is beautiful.

 

[Watershed]

The Super Off-Peak fares are day returns, so they're only offered where Off-Peak Day Returns (CDRs) are offered.

There are no CDRs for Dundee to Aberdeen or even Montrose to Aberdeen - despite these being eminently doable daytrips - hence there are no Super Off-Peak fares either.

The logic for where they offer Super Off-Peak fares seems reasonable given the heavy time restrictions; it's more the logic for where they offer CDRs that is questionable. I suspect a lot of these journeys had CDRs in the past but they were removed.

 

[N1]

Do we know if there are any rhyme or reason to which routes the ScotRail super off peak tickets are available?

I often travel from Dundee to Aberdeen and use a super off peak (split at Stonehaven, because it's significantly cheaper).

Today annoyingly the train I want to take from Dundee to Aberdeen doesn't stop at Stonehaven. I (rather stupidly it seems, but I had previously had this confirmed that I could do it) assumed that not to worry, I'll split at Montrose and get a small amount of money off. But it turns out that you cannot get super off peaks from Montrose to Aberdeen OR from Dundee to Aberdeen straight through. I ended up with a super off peak return to Montrose then a normal off peak form Montrose to Aberdeen...which is no real significant saving.

I checked BRfares.com and right enough. No super off peaks between Dundee and Aberdeen or Montrose and Aberdeen.

I thought these tickets were straight forward to understand (and I'd say I understand ticketing better than most of the public...mainly split ticketing) but today I looked like a big idiot at the ticket booth. Where the lady was very helpful...but contradicted previous advice that I was given that any route with off peak pricing I could get super off peak pricing.

At least the weather is beautiful.

I think Super Off-Peak Day Returns are only available where a corresponding Off-Peak Day Return is available. So if only an Off-Peak Return is available, then there will be no Super-Off Peak. There will be historical reasons if a day return is available or not, but there isn't really any logic anymore to which flows have day returns only, which have period returns only and ones that have both available.

 

[GregSRHST]

Ahh yes. That makes sense. Thank you both for the explanation. I hadn't considered this and just assumed (always dangerous) that it didn't matter if it was a off peak return or day return, my apologies.

I have always wondered why you can't get a CDRs between Dundee and Aberdeen. But you can if you split at Stonehaven (nearly 30% cheaper for CDRs) so makes a big difference when you add super off peak reduced pricing as well (sadly not all trains stop at Stonehaven).

 

[PG]

The Super Off-Peak fares are day returns, so they're only offered where Off-Peak Day Returns (CDRs) are offered.

Additionally, just to confuse the issue further, it appears that Super Off-Peak fares are not offered for some flows which do have Off-Peak Day Returns e.g. Laurencekirk - Dundee.

 

[nitten_travell]

Never understood the super off peak. Just another confusing option with different restrictions and too late for a day trip.

Ideal for an evening out, which my partner attempted to buy onboard yesterday Newtongrange-Edinburgh just before 5pm...

It's always preferable to have it as an option rather than having to pay more, isn't it?

Besides, the conditions are not hard to understand.

... but was told that the tickets "were not available between 3pm and 8pm", this is true when departing Edinburgh (and a few other cities: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/h4/) but not when travelling *to* Edinburgh... despite this the guard "sold me [my partner] a ticket anyway"... quite possibly having tapped it into the handheld thingy and realising they'd not *quite* got the restriction correct...

 

[reb0118]

Ideal for an evening out, which my partner attempted to buy onboard yesterday Newtongrange-Edinburgh just before 5pm...



... but was told that the tickets "were not available between 3pm and 8pm", this is true when departing Edinburgh (and a few other cities: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/h4/) but not when travelling *to* Edinburgh... despite this the guard "sold me [my partner] a ticket anyway"... quite possibly having tapped it into the handheld thingy and realising they'd not *quite* got the restriction correct...

The information provided via the hand held ticket machine clearly states that the ticket is NOT valid between 15:00 & 20:00 with no differentiation as to what direction the passenger might be travelling.

That, as we know, is incorrect. But you can see where the confusion may stem from.

 

[kkong]

The information provided via the hand held ticket machine clearly states that the ticket is NOT valid between 15:00 & 20:00 with no differentiation as to what direction the passenger might be travelling.

That, as we know, is incorrect. But you can see where the confusion may stem from.

The ScotRail website doesn't help matters by also providing a description inconsistent with restriction code H4 [my emphasis]:

If you’re travelling to or from Edinburgh, Haymarket, Glasgow, Aberdeen or Inverness, your outbound journey must take place between 11:00 and 14:59, Monday to Friday, and your return journey between 11:00 and 14:59 or after 20:00 on the same day.

 

[megabusser]

Ideal for an evening out, which my partner attempted to buy onboard yesterday Newtongrange-Edinburgh just before 5pm...



... but was told that the tickets "were not available between 3pm and 8pm", this is true when departing Edinburgh (and a few other cities: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/h4/) but not when travelling *to* Edinburgh... despite this the guard "sold me [my partner] a ticket anyway"... quite possibly having tapped it into the handheld thingy and realising they'd not *quite* got the restriction correct...

I had similar when trying to buy a ticket at Glasgow Central to a station in Greater Glasgow. They asked me to confirm that I would be coming back before 3pm or after 8pm. That shouldn’t have been relevant from my understanding. The fact that you can’t just get an itinerary on a journey planner makes it much trickier to argue your case (or confirm your understanding).

I imagine the issue will disappear when peak tickets are scrapped again in September and super off-peak will presumably go too, as it did in the trial.