Scotrail refusing itinerary

[ModernRailways]

Hi all,

On Saturday, I used a known ticket that allows travel between London and Inverness - I have been led to believe it is no longer available though.

I had no problems with East Coast, however when I changed for the Scotrail (SR) service to Inverness they didn't accept it. The guard told me I wasn't travelling on the right route. I provided him with the itinerary but he was having none of it. He then told me to move to Standard Class - which I refused as my ticket was valid. He then started shouting at this point other passengers started looking obviously wondering what was happening. I asked him to please stop shouting at me and to contact someone who may be able to assist. When I meant for someone to assist I meant an RPI who would be able to confirm the ticket was valid. Instead the BTP come along. The guard came in and started making his mouth go again, and so I politely asked the BTP officer if he could get the guard to move so I could speak with him without the guard intervening. After a quiet little argument between the pair the guard left and continued down the train. I explained the situation, I even told him how I did, providing all the relevant documents. The BTP officer said he would sort it, so off went to the BTP officer who went and had a chat to the guard. The BTP then got off at the next stop. However, by the time we reached the next station another BTP officer got on, I explained to him what had happened and that I had already had a chat with the BTP. He told me he knew about the chat but that I had apparently assaulted the guard. I asked the officer to ask fellow passengers who all said what I had said and that I never touched him and remained calm throughout. The BTP then left the train again. We were now running about 15 minutes late, because of me (apparently) not having the correct ticket.

He came back and told my ticket wasn't valid for First Class, which it obviously was and issued me with a prosecution notice. I have emailed and sent a letter off to SR outlining the situation, the letter was basically the same as the email only I had attached all the extra documentation which I used. I also sent off photocopies of my tickets and the badge numbers of the BTP officers.

Mods note: The situation was successfully resolved a few weeks later.

They apologised for my experience, told me the guard would be disciplined by his manager and apologised again also mentioning that they wish that this experience hasn't stopped me from travelling with Scotrail in the future. Attached to it was a Rail Travel Voucher for the value of £150.​

 

[BrownE]

Hi all,

On Saturday, I used a known ticket that allows travel between London and Inverness - I have been led to believe it is no longer available though.

...

He came back and told my ticket wasn't valid for First Class, which it obviously was and issued me with a prosecution notice. I have emailed and sent a letter off to SR outlining the situation, the letter was basically the same as the email only I had attached all the extra documentation which I used. I also sent off photocopies of my tickets and the badge numbers of the BTP officers.

What tickets did you hold (between which stations, advance purchase/single/return etc)? Did the itinerary that completely back up your journey?

I recently had an issue with ScotRail that will remain undisclosed with a similar issue. They unfortunately were not helpful - have customer relations replied yet?

 

[ModernRailways]

It was a One-way Advance Purchase, so I was booked on those trains anyway, which is why I didn't budge.

The itinerary I held was printed off from the website I booked the tickets on. And I was on the trains I was supposed to be on as my trains were all on time.

Still waiting for a response from SR. Although, my guess is it will take a few weeks at least so they can investigate it. I did mention in my email that I would be sending them a letter providing extra documents they may like to see.

East Coast were fine with it, in fact the guard between Newcastle and Edinburgh barely checked it. He saw it, clipped it, smiled (think he had a slight chuckle too, as he smiled with more of a huge grin, and shook his head) and said 'Cheers buddy'.

 

[bb21]

If it is what I think it is, then it is not an Advance fare. With Advance fares, the argument would be really simple, as you have to travel according to the itinerary given or the ticket is not valid.

I think ScotRail have cottoned on to the fact that these tickets are being sold. They have been reasonably quick in my experience to close down loopholes and instruct their guards what to watch out for.

However no excuse really not to honour the contract formed when the sale of the ticket was completed.

 

[BrownE]

It was a One-way Advance Purchase, so I was booked on those trains anyway.

The itinerary I held was printed off from the website I booked the tickets on. And I was on the trains I was supposed to be on as my trains were all on time.

Still waiting for a response from SR. Although, my guess is it will take a few weeks at least so they can investigate it. I did mention in my email that I would be sending them a letter providing extra documents they may like to see.

There aren't any AP tickets available on that flow. I take it you bought the single, this omission has now been fixed by Raileasy. I'm unfortunately unable to publicly comment further now I know your ticket.

 

[ModernRailways]

If it is what I think it is, then it is not an Advance fare. With Advance fares, the argument would be really simple, as you have to travel according to the itinerary given or the ticket is not valid.

I think ScotRail have cottoned on to the fact that these tickets are being sold. They have been reasonably quick in my experience to close down loopholes and instruct their guards what to watch out for.

However no excuse really not to honour the contract formed when the sale of the ticket was completed.

My argument was based on the fact the ticket was valid on that service as shown on both the ticket and itinerary.

It may have been a loophole, but that loophole existed and if someone purchased the ticket using that loophole then it should be honoured just like any other ticket would be.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

A 'loophole' in this case sounds like a significant but unintended error which no reasonable person would consider to have been intended. Where a passenger recognises that a contract contains an unintended error and enters into that contract deliberately and only in order to exploit that error to the disadvantage of the other party, then no. The contract can be set aside and to pursue it becomes an attempt to defraud the other party.

Evidence to support the passenger's deliberate intention to defraud might include their home and work addresses being far from either the origin or destination on the ticket.

We can take comfort from the fact that a railway operator will be very unlikely to have any appetite for pursuing a counter-claim of fraud, and will be content to simply prevent the unintended travel or to offer the passenger travel at the proper rate. The worst that is likely is that a Company might seek to recover their Common Law right to damages in the sum of the fare(s) not paid, and even this recourse would require proof that the deliberate intention to take advantage was not wholly innocent.

Scotrail are likely to respond by pointing out that the error might have been caused by a third party and not themselves.

This opinion will not be shared by all, and some railway professionals are likely to be persuaded by the existence of a corresponding travel itinery, even if the tickets are not 'Advance'.

 

[38Cto15E]

I am from a past era so you will need to cut me some slack on this one.

If I were travelling from an East Coast station to Inverness via I presume Edinburgh then surely the price of an Advance ticket takes some beating, Modern Railways stated he travelled on the booked trains so travelling on an Advance should not have been a problem.

I know we like to exploit loopholes but if I bought a bundle of split tickets to either save money or have a good ride around, my trip would be spolit by worrying that everytime my tickets were examined I was going to have a confrontation with the guard or RPI/Police, even if I was in the right.

If any BM wants to send me a PM explaining things, your confidence is assured, I have no connections with any TOC or BM.

 

[LexyBoy]

A 'loophole' in this case sounds like a significant but unintended error which no reasonable person would consider to have been intended. Where a passenger recognises that a contract contains an unintended error and enters into that contract deliberately and only in order to exploit that error to the disadvantage of the other party, then no. The contract can be set aside and to pursue it becomes an attempt to defraud the other party.

I take it that the ticket in question is one offered due to an error in the booking site, rather than a routeing guide anomaly?

Otherwise where does one draw the line? There are plenty of uncontroversial routes which allow a journey to be made using a ticket costing less than an [origin]-[destination] ticket, and splitting tickets also allows a journey to be made costing less than the journey is intended to. For instance, I regularly buy a ticket which allows me to travel on the train of an operator who I know will make no revenue from my journey, and which costs less than a ticket from my origin to my destination; although many would consider it a "loophole" (as used in general parlance) it is absolutely valid. I buy that ticket in order to use it to my advantage, not to disadvantage the operator in question, although that is a side-effect.

Given the complexity of the system I would argue that there are a lot of scenarios where a reasonable person might incorrectly assume an error in their favour, e.g. wildly varying Off Peak times, Off Peak tickets being valid on Virgin with a Railcard, etc!

 

[455driver]

I am from a past era so you will need to cut me some slack on this one.

If I were travelling from an East Coast station to Inverness via I presume Edinburgh then surely the price of an Advance ticket takes some beating, Modern Railways stated he travelled on the booked trains so travelling on an Advance should not have been a problem.

I know we like to exploit loopholes but if I bought a bundle of split tickets to either save money or have a good ride around, my trip would be spolit by worrying that everytime my tickets were examined I was going to have a confrontation with the guard or RPI/Police, even if I was in the right.

If any BM wants to send me a PM explaining things, your confidence is assured, I have no connections with any TOC or BM.

It isnt an advanced ticket, it is a ticket that has been incorrectly priced on the booking engine and people are taking the pee/ using it to full effect knowing full well its the wrong price.
The error has already been corrected.

 

[Antman]

Hi all,

On Saturday, I used a known ticket that allows travel between London and Inverness - I have been led to believe it is no longer available though.

I had no problems with East Coast, however when I changed for the Scotrail (SR) service to Inverness they didn't accept it. The guard told me I wasn't travelling on the right route. I provided him with the itinerary but he was having none of it. He then told me to move to Standard Class - which I refused as my ticket was valid. He then started shouting at this point other passengers started looking obviously wondering what was happening. I asked him to please stop shouting at me and to contact someone who may be able to assist. When I meant for someone to assist I meant an RPI who would be able to confirm the ticket was valid. Instead the BTP come along. The guard came in and started making his mouth go again, and so I politely asked the BTP officer if he could get the guard to move so I could speak with him without the guard intervening. After a quiet little argument between the pair the guard left and continued down the train. I explained the situation, I even told him how I did, providing all the relevant documents. The BTP officer said he would sort it, so off went to the BTP officer who went and had a chat to the guard. The BTP then got off at the next stop. However, by the time we reached the next station another BTP officer got on, I explained to him what had happened and that I had already had a chat with the BTP. He told me he knew about the chat but that I had apparently assaulted the guard. I asked the officer to ask fellow passengers who all said what I had said and that I never touched him and remained calm throughout. The BTP then left the train again. We were now running about 15 minutes late, because of me (apparently) not having the correct ticket.

He came back and told my ticket wasn't valid for First Class, which it obviously was and issued me with a prosecution notice. I have emailed and sent a letter off to SR outlining the situation, the letter was basically the same as the email only I had attached all the extra documentation which I used. I also sent off photocopies of my tickets and the badge numbers of the BTP officers.

Do Scotrail normally have that many BTP officers on their trains?

I witnesssed a guard being allegedly 'assualted' on a SET and I later gave a witness statement to BTP that the whole thing was poppycock, no further action was taken against the alleged offender. Do guards make a habit of inventing such things?

 

[Eagle]

It isnt an advanced ticket, it is a ticket that has been incorrectly priced on the booking engine and people are taking the pee/ using it to full effect knowing full well its the wrong price.

No, it's a ticket that's the correct price but being given an itinerary which isn't a permitted route.

(That is, it's a normal ticket between A and B, but being sold with an itinerary via a far away station Z.)

 

[ModernRailways]

A 'loophole' in this case sounds like a significant but unintended error which no reasonable person would consider to have been intended. Where a passenger recognises that a contract contains an unintended error and enters into that contract deliberately and only in order to exploit that error to the disadvantage of the other party, then no. The contract can be set aside and to pursue it becomes an attempt to defraud the other party.

Evidence to support the passenger's deliberate intention to defraud might include their home and work addresses being far from either the origin or destination on the ticket.

We can take comfort from the fact that a railway operator will be very unlikely to have any appetite for pursuing a counter-claim of fraud, and will be content to simply prevent the unintended travel or to offer the passenger travel at the proper rate. The worst that is likely is that a Company might seek to recover their Common Law right to damages in the sum of the fare(s) not paid, and even this recourse would require proof that the deliberate intention to take advantage was not wholly innocent.

Scotrail are likely to respond by pointing out that the error might have been caused by a third party and not themselves.

This opinion will not be shared by all, and some railway professionals are likely to be persuaded by the existence of a corresponding travel itinery, even if the tickets are not 'Advance'.

I agree, partly, which is why in my letter/email to SR I haven't mentioned the prosecution notice and only mentioned the guard disagreeing with me and then my main focus is on the BTP getting involved, me allegedly assualting him. My hope is that they will see the prosecution notice and just pass it off. Obviously if they don't just throw it away then I will have to seek legal advice.

However, like other members have said where do you draw the line. I was on the correct train at the correct time using a correct ticket that only allowed me onto those specific services. Now it may have been to benefit me, but you could also argue that a journey that should take 1 hour or so has ended up taking 24 hours, thus getting a cheaper fare than I would had I of just went the quicker route.

Do Scotrail normally have that many BTP officers on their trains?

Their was only two officers that had a chat to me and it was at the same station that we were held at. My guess is only one of them got on originally, and the second time the second officer got on.

It isnt an advanced ticket, it is a ticket that has been incorrectly priced on the booking engine and people are taking the pee/ using it to full effect knowing full well its the wrong price.
The error has already been corrected.

It is an advance ticket. It hasn't been incorrectly priced, it's just giving the wrong route. In a all honesty I agree I was taking the pee, but if it's a known problem then it should have been closed quicker, but I had bought the ticket's and in my opinion they should still be accepted.

 

[michael769]

My hope is that they will see the prosecution notice and just pass it off. Obviously if they don't just throw it away then I will have to seek legal advice.

Be aware that Scotrail cannot prosecute in Scotland so the Police will submit a report directly to the Procurator Fiscal for consideration of prosecution. At no point will Scotrail be involved other than to provide staff as witnesses.

 

[W230]

So the circumstances - the ticket involved is priced correctly but has been bought from a third party website. The intinerary shown is not a valid route. Is that correct?

I assume it's still subject to NRCoC? I would assume if it was incorrectly issued by a TOC/from a ticket office it should be accepted but what happens if the tickets are bought from site such as the Trainline etc and they make the mistake?

That's me assuming that the trainline are independent of actual TOC's nowadays. Quite possibly an incorrect assumption...

 

[cuccir]

It is an advance ticket. It hasn't been incorrectly priced, it's just giving the wrong route. In a all honesty I agree I was taking the pee, but if it's a known problem then it should have been closed quicker, but I had bought the ticket's and in my opinion they should still be accepted.

Can we clarify something - is that an Advance ticket or a ticket purchased in advance? There are significant differences when it comes to routes and itineraries for these.

 

[Crossover]

It is an advance ticket. It hasn't been incorrectly priced, it's just giving the wrong route. In a all honesty I agree I was taking the pee, but if it's a known problem then it should have been closed quicker, but I had bought the ticket's and in my opinion they should still be accepted.

Can I confirm, is it definitely an Advance Purchase ticket (where it says "Advance" actually on the ticket) or is an Anytime First Single with an itinerary and reservations which was bought in advance?

If it is one, I have a good idea which ticket it'll be and it could be problematic. If it is the other, it is a new one on me, and perhaps should be less problematic. (Feel free to PM me if you don't wish to disclose too much on the public forum)

EDIT: Judging by cuccir's reply literally while I was typing mine, great minds clearly think alike :P

 

[Mike@Raileasy]

There aren't any AP tickets available on that flow. I take it you bought the single, this omission has now been fixed by Raileasy. I'm unfortunately unable to publicly comment further now I know your ticket.

We and the Trainline rely on industry data over which we have no control. We had an overnight deploy by Fujitsu but, as I understand it, this was an "easement" in the routeing guide that had "gone wrong".

 

[185]

Trainline was set up by Virgin, and was later sold to Exponent Private Equity who pay a licensing fee to ATOC - who are, by their own definition, a body formed of the train operating companies. All the other sites eg, Raileasy etc also pay this licensing fee to act as agents for ATOC - ie the train operating companies.

As the train operating companies allow these agents to sell their tickets and receive licensing payments, ATOC should be effectively responsible for mistakes made by organisations they offer licenses to.

So in effect, Scotrail allowed the creation of companies like Raileasy and have only themselves to blame for sales errors and omissions like this.

 

[W230]

So in effect, Scotrail allowed the creation of companies like Raileasy and have only themselves to blame for sales errors and omissions like this.

Makes sense. In which case I feel they could probably honour it?

**Off topic (and by no means meant as a critiscism of the OP) - if someone was to receive the services of a small/one man company for an incorrect (and very cheap) price due to a pricing error, would they feel it should still be honoured by the company if it was going to cause significant financial hardship to that company? Where does one draw the line?**

 

[maniacmartin]

We and the Trainline rely on industry data over which we have no control. We had an overnight deploy by Fujitsu but, as I understand it, this was an "easement" in the routeing guide that had "gone wrong".

It doesn't surprise me when there are vague easements like "Customers travelling via X may travel via Y". If these are not encoded in the intended way in the database form (created by ATOC and its IT contractors) that is given to booking agents then I see how it could allow stupid routes.

 

[ModernRailways]

Can we clarify something - is that an Advance ticket or a ticket purchased in advance? There are significant differences when it comes to routes and itineraries for these.

Can I confirm, is it definitely an Advance Purchase ticket (where it says "Advance" actually on the ticket) or is an Anytime First Single with an itinerary and reservations which was bought in advance?

If it is one, I have a good idea which ticket it'll be and it could be problematic. If it is the other, it is a new one on me, and perhaps should be less problematic. (Feel free to PM me if you don't wish to disclose too much on the public forum)

EDIT: Judging by cuccir's reply literally while I was typing mine, great minds clearly think alike :P

To answer both of you it was an Advance ticket. It has 1ST ADVANCE on it. I couldn't travel on different trains, as I was booked on those specific trains. Sorry if I didn't make it clear in my original post.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I doubt that, in law, Scotrail have any case whatsoever against the passenger here. If this is "Advance" then there is only ONE route and time the passenger is permitted to travel, as detailed in the intinerary and/or accompanying reservations. And if it says "1st" on it, it's valid in First Class.

One of these days, someone with the resources to do it will bring a major case against some TOC for their misdemeanours and win not only the case, but damages, too. If this causes the TOCs to start behaving "properly" (which would INclude accepting the ticket described here, for example) then it's not a moment too soon.

 

[Deerfold]

I'd be interested to know how cheap a ticket would have to be for it to be an obvious mistake.

I've seen perfectly deliberate Advance tickets from Aberdeen to London for £5 (as part of a limited availability sale) and just this week I travelled between London and Birmingham for 50p return.

 

[Tibbs]

I doubt that, in law, Scotrail have any case whatsoever against the passenger here. If this is "Advance" then there is only ONE route and time the passenger is permitted to travel, as detailed in the intinerary and/or accompanying reservations. And if it says "1st" on it, it's valid in First Class.

One of these days, someone with the resources to do it will bring a major case against some TOC for their misdemeanours and win not only the case, but damages, too. If this causes the TOCs to start behaving "properly" (which would INclude accepting the ticket described here, for example) then it's not a moment too soon.

I have a feeling RJ's cases will end like this. If it does I'll happily pay into a legal fund to support him.

Right now on ticketing it seems like all the responsibility falls on the passenger and none on the TOC or its representatives.

 

[Crossover]

To answer both of you it was an Advance ticket. It has 1ST ADVANCE on it. I couldn't travel on different trains, as I was booked on those specific trains. Sorry if I didn't make it clear in my original post.

Thanks for confirming ModernRailways - no need to apologise, we only ask as it allows us to determine the best course of action.

This is a different issue to what we've heard about previously and, as mentioned by others, ScotRail appear to have no case whatsoever on this one.

Some advance tickets do occasionally have some odd routings anyway, and it doesn't seem to take much to get the staff grumbling (I had a Kings Cross to Dewsbury AP last year and the route I had to take was via Selby - not miles out but the guard couldn't understand why me and a few others had been given them (it was quicker than the next direct Leeds but only gave a +5 at Selby and typically, at the time, we were over 5 late up the ECML!) when I queried if the connection would be held for us)

There seems to be an annoying intolerance amongst some to "cheap" tickets where by the cost MUST determine it's validity, which isn't the case of course!

As for staff trying to make assault allegations (from your earlier post), there are threads round here that suggest it isn't a one off incident

 

[ModernRailways]

There seems to be an annoying intolerance amongst some to "cheap" tickets where by the cost MUST determine it's validity, which isn't the case of course!

As for staff trying to make assault allegations (from your earlier post), there are threads round here that suggest it isn't a one off incident

Not just cheap tickets either. I just started an ALR on Tuesday and I was travelling on SWT and when the guard came along I showed him the ticket and he said 'What's that, it's a bit expensive for South West Trains, innit?' I explained and he asked me to go with him to his rear cab, after checking he realised it was a real ticket, but then said why didn't you get a railcard discount. I told him it wasn't allowed. We then preceded to have a good 20 minute conversation about the railways and ticketing. He asked where I was getting off and I told him, and then at the station before the station I was getting off at he let me open and close the doors - it was a fairly rural station with only about 2 people boarding and 1 person leaving. He checked the platform and did everything else I just pushed the buttons.

As for the assault allegation I've also seen in one of RJ's many threads that (some!!!) staff don't like being told that they're wrong and in doing so they hate even more so is that the passenger remains calm - I was ready to start shouting at the guard myself but I knew if I did so then it would only make my situation worse! Some staff seem to be out there to get conflict, I remember at London Bridge, I had put my ticket through the barrier and was almost at the escalator to go down into the Underground, along comes this South Eastern RPI who demands I go back over to the gateline (I oblige), I tell him I'm in a hurry (my train was 20 minutes late arriving) and he asked me to show him my Railcard, I showed him it, and he asked me to put my ticket through the barriers again. He then told me I may continue on my way, I sighed and started to break into a run as I had 10 minutes to get from London Bridge to Waterloo for my connection. He then came running after me and told me I wasn't allowed to run in case I fell over and it would be his fault. I said 'Look mate, I'm in hurry, can you just let me go.' to which he replies 'Yeah, get lost kid.' I couldn't be bothered to say anything in reply.

Thankfully there are plenty of staff who will take an interest in you helping them giving them information they may not know, For example on East Coast on Wednesday evening the TM came back along after checking tickets and started asking me what I had been doing, where I had been and where I was heading to. He told me that there was engineering works on a certain line and to avoid it if I could. Then upon leaving the train, he said 'Have a good few trips on that, and don't eat all the food given to you!' I laughed, he laughed and that was a human interaction, some railway staff think they are above and beyond everyone else and that's what gives people bad perceptions. Those who follow TOCs on Twitter will no doubt have realised just how 'human' they tend to be. Some of them are more than happy to have a normal conversation with you. Ollie from FGW is a great example and he is quite possibly the best for information!

I've just noticed that I've rambled on a bit here

 

[cjp]

Not just cheap tickets either. I just started an ALR on Tuesday

Some staff seem to be out there to get conflict, I remember at London Bridge, I had put my ticket through the barrier and was almost at the escalator to go down into the Underground, along comes this South Eastern RPI who demands I go back over to the gateline (I oblige), I tell him I'm in a hurry (my train was 20 minutes late arriving) and he asked me to show him my Railcard, I showed him it, and he asked me to put my ticket through the barriers again. He then told me I may continue on my way, I sighed and started to break into a run as I had 10 minutes to get from London Bridge to Waterloo for my connection. He then came running after me and told me I wasn't allowed to run in case I fell over and it would be his fault. I said 'Look mate, I'm in hurry, can you just let me go.' to which he replies 'Yeah, get lost kid.' I couldn't be bothered to say anything in reply.


I've just noticed that I've rambled on a bit here

An interesting ramble though.
What, I wondered would the RPI do if one said "no" and headed off down the escalator?
Lay on hands and detain you?
Shrug and move on?

As for the "get lost Kid" it displays a mind set that needs to be eradicated or changed.
This of course could be sour grapes on my part as my "kid" days are long gone.

Coming back to the original poster's experience with Scotrail it sounds like they have been unfortunate as I found Scotrail guards to be intent but polite

 

[island]

Not just cheap tickets either. I just started an ALR on Tuesday and I was travelling on SWT and when the guard came along I showed him the ticket and he said 'What's that, it's a bit expensive for South West Trains, innit?' I explained and he asked me to go with him to his rear cab, after checking he realised it was a real ticket, but then said why didn't you get a railcard discount. I told him it wasn't allowed.

It is.

 

[bb21]

It is.

Not if First Class on a 16-25 Railcard.