Scotrail preferred bidders

[Bodiddly]

Hi,
Can anyone shed any light on what it is like to work for one of the Scotrail franchise shortlisted firms?
Speaking personally, First Group are a decent employer but speaking to my colleagues where I work, National Express were a bit of a nightmare to work for. This of course, worries me as they could win it again and to be honest, after their East Coast debacle, I wonder why they have even been shortlisted. Arriva and Abellio are a bit of an unknown to me.
also, does anyone work for Serco as they could win the sleeper franchise?
This decision will have implications for staff and passengers alike.

 

[Simon11]

The bids will be scored based on the quality of the bids. The bidders 'should' be putting their proposals to the unions for them to give their agreement. Therefore, this means that the unions are having a part to play in looking after their members.

A new franchises offers the big opportunity to bring lots of new investment to ScotRail and make changes to make the TOC better. I'm sure it will be a much better TOC after a few years as FSR isn't perfect.

 

[Bodiddly]

A new franchises offers the big opportunity to bring lots of new investment to ScotRail and make changes to make the TOC better. I'm sure it will be a much better TOC after a few years as FSR isn't perfect.

Maybe First aren't perfect, but National Express in my view would be a massive mistake for Scottish railways, as the evidence points towards a company who are driven by sheer profit and to hell with the rest. It was alleged that before the East Coast franchise was abandoned, maintenance of the fleet was not being fully carried out to standard with the result that trains were running on the network with serious brake defects, a claim denied by management.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2009/jul/06/national-express-safety-warning
And who's to say that after a couple of years, staff numbers are cut and services become third rate?

 

[Murph]

…after their East Coast debacle, I wonder why they have even been shortlisted. …

I thought that NX had basically been told at the time of their abandonment of NXEC, that walking away from a franchise just because they no longer liked it, and had been grossly incompetent when bidding for it, basically meant that they would never be considered for another franchise. They certainly don't deserve another chance so soon after miserably failing with arguably the UK's best franchise opportunity, in my opinion.

If people can just break franchises at will, without any long term penalty via disqualification from future franchises for quite some time, that's something very wrong with the franchise system itself. They chose to bid uneconomically low on EC, they should bear the consequences for their incompetence, having caused material damage as a result.

 

[Jydo]

Slighty off topic from the OP but

The fact that FirstGroup are scottish based & have created jobs aswell as job security in other sectors other than the rail industry in Scotland surely would give them a slight advantage would it not? Havent they placed a big multi million pound order with Alexander Dennis bus builders in Falkirk? I know its a few years now but FSR were instrumental with the scottish transport museum when it re-opened. Yes they have problems & things they need to addressed in terms of rolling stock, etc etc for the new franchise so surely its a case of "better the devil you know" to a certain extent??

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I thought that NX had basically been told at the time of their abandonment of NXEC, that walking away from a franchise just because they no longer liked it, and had been grossly incompetent when bidding for it, basically meant that they would never be considered for another franchise. They certainly don't deserve another chance so soon after miserably failing with arguably the UK's best franchise opportunity, in my opinion.

If people can just break franchises at will, without any long term penalty via disqualification from future franchises for quite some time, that's something very wrong with the franchise system itself. They chose to bid uneconomically low on EC, they should bear the consequences for their incompetence, having caused material damage as a result.

NXEC was a DfT franchise, Scotrail is not.
I think they have worked their penance with DfT now, otherwise they would not have got a shot at the c2c rebid.
c2c saved their bacon really, it has been well run throughout.

 

[Murph]

NXEC was a DfT franchise, Scotrail is not.
I think they have worked their penance with DfT now, otherwise they would not have got a shot at the c2c rebid.
c2c saved their bacon really, it has been well run throughout.

Yeah, that's a fair point that ScotRail is under a different administration. I still think that it's really rather soon after they abandoned NXEC though, and not sure that just a few years of doing ok with c2c really clears them. I quite strongly agree with what Lord Adonis said to the BBC at the time:

It is simply unacceptable to reap the benefits of contracts when times are good, only to walk away from them when times become more challenging.

The NXEC fiasco should be familiar to Holyrood, I'd hope, and be remembered in evaluating any bids. The ECML does run right past their front door, visible from the front courtyard…

 

[pitdiver]

I'm an ex NX employee albeit from the coach division so take it from me unless you work in head office or one of their "prestige sites" they don't give a monkeys for you. In one location where I was based we saw a senior manager once a year if we were lucky. When we moved to a much more prestigious location with 21st century facilities the place was crawling with them. Long may NX never get another rail franchise. They can hardly cock up c2c can they.

 

[cf111]

I can't say anything from an employee perspective, but I have no issues with First ScotRail as a passenger.

 

[overthewater]

Slighty off topic from the OP but

The fact that FirstGroup are scottish based & have created jobs aswell as job security in other sectors other than the rail industry in Scotland surely would give them a slight advantage would it not? Havent they placed a big multi million pound order with Alexander Dennis bus builders in Falkirk? I know its a few years now but FSR were instrumental with the scottish transport museum when it re-opened. Yes they have problems & things they need to addressed in terms of rolling stock, etc etc for the new franchise so surely its a case of "better the devil you know" to a certain extent??

Its only just recently FirstGroup has started buying Scottish built buses. It must be made clear, some of the current bus operations are being left to rot because of the controlled routes, which is one of the condition of gaining the franchise.

The Scottish Green party does not want first to win this contract again.

 

[Bodiddly]

I'm an ex NX employee albeit from the coach division so take it from me unless you work in head office or one of their "prestige sites" they don't give a monkeys for you. In one location where I was based we saw a senior manager once a year if we were lucky. When we moved to a much more prestigious location with 21st century facilities the place was crawling with them. Long may NX never get another rail franchise. They can hardly cock up c2c can they.

Kind of echoes what some of my colleagues have told me about their time with NX, mess areas and depots being run down, difficulty in getting cash for tools, training and a general feeling of neglect and penny pinching.

 

[3141]

Yeah, that's a fair point that ScotRail is under a different administration. I still think that it's really rather soon after they abandoned NXEC though, and not sure that just a few years of doing ok with c2c really clears them. I quite strongly agree with what Lord Adonis said to the BBC at the time:

It is simply unacceptable to reap the benefits of contracts when times are good, only to walk away from them when times become more challenging.

Lord Adonis was pretty angry about NX at the time, but it turned out that the way NXEC was structured meant that NX Group could not be penalised in the way he and many others would have liked for giving up on its East Coast franchise. If that had been possible, I'm sure the DfT would have taken NX East Anglia back as well.

Since NX Group did not breach a contract or act illegally, it would be very difficult to refuse to shortlist them, if their submission meets the DfT's criteria. After the West Coast problems 18 months ago the DfT would be very unlikely to refuse to place a company on the shortlist if it had put in a submission which met the criteria that had been set. It would not want another judicial review of its decisions.

 

[route:oxford]

It'll go to Arriva.

An independent Scotland will need plenty of friends in Europe when they apply to join.

 

[overthewater]

It'll go to Arriva.

An independent Scotland will need plenty of friends in Europe when they apply to join.

Right reasons, wrong European company

 

[Argosy]

The bids will be scored based on the quality of the bids. The bidders 'should' be putting their proposals to the unions for them to give their agreement. Therefore, this means that the unions are having a part to play in looking after their members.

A new franchises offers the big opportunity to bring lots of new investment to ScotRail and make changes to make the TOC better. I'm sure it will be a much better TOC after a few years as FSR isn't perfect.

Agreed. The nightmare scenario is another x years of First.

 

[DownSouth]

It'll go to Arriva.

An independent Scotland will need plenty of friends in Europe when they apply to join.

Given that the problem for post-secession Scotland trying to get into the EU will not be with the Germans but with the Spanish (who won't want to encourage the Basque and Catalan secessionist movements) and French (same deal with Bretons and Corsicans) you would think a RENFE-SNCF consortium would be the ideal move if franchises were actually awarded in that manner. That such a consortium wasn't encouraged to apply would indicate it doesn't work that way.

 

[185]

It'll go to Arriva.

An independent Scotland will need plenty of friends in Europe when they apply to join.

Vive la revolution! Viva Arriva! :cry:

Personally I'd like to see MTR have a go. Their HK operation is excellent.

 

[DownSouth]

Vive la revolution! Viva Arriva! :cry:

Personally I'd like to see MTR have a go. Their HK operation is excellent.

Their rather average operation of the Metro Trains Melbourne franchise is probably a bit more instructive of how they would go with Scotrail than how they perform on home turf.

 

[Addington]

Their rather average operation of the Metro Trains Melbourne franchise is probably a bit more instructive of how they would go with Scotrail than how they perform on home turf.

I never thought I would find myself saying that anyone could be worse than Connex, but that was until MTR started the Melbourne franchise. My fear is that the will be awarded a franchise extension in a couple of years time.

 

[Bodiddly]

I think we're getting a bit off topic here. I don't want to turn this into another independence debate or a personal attack on a business, I'm just trying to get an idea on how these other bid companies perform in their current franchises. I understand that employees are a bit wary of venting their spleen about who they work for, but there is real concern and uncertainty amongst workers when they could pontentially move to another company and not know much about the company that takes them over. This is not the same as a new employee asking how good a company is to work for. It would also be helpful if any members have experience in using the trains these bid companies supply, what kind of service they provide etc etc. (one for you Sammy as you don't seem to like the status quo)

 

[Simon11]

The bid is mostly based on what the bidder proposes to do, with quality and financial scores. The only relevance to what has happened previously, is when they have to back up their proposals. For example, we are doing X and we have previously done this at X TOC.

Bidders don't have much freedom with stock and most inherit them in their franchise.

In terms of initiatives, these are brought together by the bid team who will mostly be staff who have years of experience. In terms of how the bid is formed, it is these people who make the differences between bids. This is especially for ScotRail, because the bid focuses on quality more then DfT.

 

[scotsman]

Mary Grant is leading the NX bid, though. She was very popular with FSR staff when she was with First, I wouldn't be too surprised if you found a lot of staff backed NX to win, despite what happened last time...

 

[JB25]

Abellio in for Scot Rail and TSGN franchises... I don't really know much about them, what are their Rail Franchises like?

I read in the latest ASLEF magazine that First, Arriva, NX, Abellio and MTR are in for Scot Rail, MTR own LOROL don't they?

 

[Simon11]

MTR & Arriva 'run' LOROL services

 

[3141]

There will be people who have strong views for and against any franchise holder. Some of these views are irrational and emotional, others have some factual basis.

I don't know that "what their rail franchises are like" will tell you (or anyone else) all that much about what a company is like to work for. Nat Express have done well with c2c, and I think they had a good reputation with Midland Mainline. They didn't have so much of a reputation with Central Trains, and their operation of East Coast ended in failure. Was that entirely their fault, or should the DfT have realised that their bid was optimistic? First receive a lot of criticism over First Capital Connect. Plenty of people are critical of Cross Country, but overcrowding on some sections of their network has a lot to do with the DfT's allocation of rolling stock. Abellio hold the concession for Merseyrail, which gets a lot of praise, but Greater Anglia gets less.

It seems to me that much of a TOC's performance has to do with the circumstances in which their routes operate, the rolling stock available to them, and the ability and ingenuity of their management, and not necessarily the parent company.

 

[scotraildriver]

Mary Grant is leading the NX bid, though. She was very popular with FSR staff when she was with First, I wouldn't be too surprised if you found a lot of staff backed NX to win, despite what happened last time...

Very true.Her time in charge was without doubt the best time to work for Scotrail. NX were however a nightmare when they had Scotrail so difficult to know what a Mary Grant/NX franchise would be like. She is on record in the latest ASLEF journal saying she will be MD should they win and is not just leading the bid and that will certainly be popular with staff and unions.

 

[Bodiddly]

Very true.Her time in charge was without doubt the best time to work for Scotrail. NX were however a nightmare when they had Scotrail so difficult to know what a Mary Grant/NX franchise would be like. She is on record in the latest ASLEF journal saying she will be MD should they win and is not just leading the bid and that will certainly be popular with staff and unions.

That's interesting hearing that as I have had much the same response from colleagues stating Mary Grant was an excellent MD, although what she would be like under NX could be very different to what she was like at First. Did you work for NX before First?

 

[transmanche]

MTR own LOROL don't they?

MTR and Arriva own LOROL as a 50-50 joint-venture. But LOROL don't operate a traditional franchise, LO is a concession. TfL specify the services, fares, standards, etc and they take the majority of the revenue risk.

 

[Carlisle]

Very true.Her time in charge was without doubt the best time to work for Scotrail. NX were however a nightmare when they had Scotrail so difficult to know what a Mary Grant/NX franchise would be like. She is on record in the latest ASLEF journal saying she will be MD should they win and is not just leading the bid and that will certainly be popular with staff and unions.

anyone who does not have to implement many changes affecting people's jobs and quietly keeps the unions happy is probably going to be popular with most staff I would think , which is how I recall most of her era at Scotrail :cry:

 

[scotraildriver]

anyone who does not have to implement many changes affecting people's jobs and quietly keeps the unions happy is probably going to be popular with most staff I would think , which is how I recall most of her era at Scotrail :cry:

Mary Grant certainly made changes regarding peoples jobs in her previous tenure, and front line staff were valued by her. I did work under NX and it was basically doing the minimumm possible under the franchise terms. Unfortunately after a good start First have gone the same way, I suspect due to their overall debt.