Scotrail omitting other operators' services from timetables

[BRX]

Maybe this has been going on for a while, but it seems that Scotrail's current "paper" timetables completely omit any services that aren't run by Scotrail.

This means that anyone using these timetables will get a false impression of what travel options they have. This seems a very anti-passenger (and anti public transport) strategy.

The Caledonian Sleeper is not shown on the WHL timetable:

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/media/29411/download?inline

You might argue that this doesn't amount to much (even though it means the first & last services each day to many stations are hidden) but the same is true on the Glasgow/Edinburgh Aberdeen timetable:

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/media/27866/download?inline

This means that all LNER and XC services are hidden - creating big gaps that in reality have several services running in them.

If I was currently living in Scotland I'd be tempted to moan to my MP about this.

 

[Bill57p9]

Edinburgh to Aberdeen is the large omission, however there are others:

• Glasgow Central, Motherwell and Carstairs are also served by TPE
• Edinburgh - Dunbar : the majority of services are run by other operators (TPE, LNER, XC)
• Edinburgh - Inverness (LNER)
• Kingussie - Inverness (CS northbound only)

This does seem at odds with the Scottish Government looking to encourage public transport use.

 

[fraser158]

They certainly used to be in there. I can't pinpoint when they stopped showing them.

 

[WAB]

Does this mean that they don't show Reston in their print timetables at all?

 

[The Puddock]

Does this mean that they don't show Reston in their print timetables at all?

Yes that’s right, the relevant timetable only shows services between Edinburgh and Dunbar. So we have two stations managed by ScotRail (Reston and Lockerbie) that don’t appear in their timetables at all.

I wonder if the reason why they’ve done this stupid bit of balkanisation is because they assume everyone is using some sort of online app to plan their journey? They don’t even bother producing physical printed copies of the timetable any more, since Covid.

 

[mcmad]

So do, for example, the LNW timetables for Birmingham - London also show Avanti services?

 

[Towers]

Surely an opportunity here for a basic requirement that all TOC timetables must show all services!

 

[norbitonflyer]

So do, for example, the LNW timetables for Birmingham - London also show Avanti services?

All LNW timetables show Avanti services except for the London-Birmingham route (which does show the Southern services to Milton Keynes). The WMR Northampton to Birmingham timetable does show them though.

To be fair, its London Birmingham timetable is mainloy concerned with intermediate stations, and it is quite common for express services to be omitted from timetables for local services. There should however be a note informing you that faster services are available on another timetable.

 

[Carntyne]

Maybe this has been going on for a while, but it seems that Scotrail's current "paper" timetables completely omit any services that aren't run by Scotrail.

This means that anyone using these timetables will get a false impression of what travel options they have. This seems a very anti-passenger (and anti public transport) strategy.

The Caledonian Sleeper is not shown on the WHL timetable:

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/media/29411/download?inline

You might argue that this doesn't amount to much (even though it means the first & last services each day to many stations are hidden) but the same is true on the Glasgow/Edinburgh Aberdeen timetable:

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/media/27866/download?inline

This means that all LNER and XC services are hidden - creating big gaps that in reality have several services running in them.

If I was currently living in Scotland I'd be tempted to moan to my MP about this.

It's incompetence that's behind it. They (management) did not even want to print timetables until they were told to.

 

[MikeWM]

I think the answer is 'it varies'. For travelling between Ely and Cambridge, for example, historically CrossCountry (rather understandably) and Great Northern (rather less so) didn't show other operator's services, but the Greater Anglia timetable showed all three TOCs. Equally EMR's timetables don't show GA's Norwich-Ely services, but GA show the EMRs.

Though given Scotrail seem to have some sort of inbuilt aversion to producing timetables at all - either in hard copy or even on display at stations - I used the NRT pdfs on my iPad while holidaying earlier this year, which of course do cover all services. I did get rater frustrated at the smiley posters at every single station where a printed timetable ought to be, saying 'for timetable information look at our website or app', with the implication that if you don't have internet access or are unable to use the internet for any reason, hard luck knowing when trains are supposed to run. It's a pretty dismal attitude and doesn't attract people to use the railway.

 

[Oxfordblues]

When I worked at the travel centre at Bradford Interchange in the 1970s we had cupboards full of local timetable booklets. They were only available to passengers on request. One day I took the initiative and put some out on display. Within an hour they'd all disappeared, snapped-up by customers who wanted the information in their pockets. Hearing of my action a colleague took me to one side and firmly told be not to do this again: "If you put them all out we'll have none left" and "You'll put us out of a job if you let the punters find out train times for themselves".

 

[Taunton]

This does seem at odds with the Scottish Government looking to encourage public transport use.

Doesn't antipathy to England-based train operators trump that?

 

[Buzby]

Doesn't antipathy to England-based train operators trump that?

I doubt that. They don’t even serve Dunbar anymore so antipathy for Scots is top of the list!

 

[snookertam]

It’s not intentional and there isn’t a grand anti-English conspiracy behind it. ScotRail is just such a shambles they will have been completely missed.

 

[Deepgreen]

Privatisation was/is, effectively, anti-passenger as it fragments the whole network and introduces artificial boundaries into what should be a seamless system (from both the passengers' point of view and the industry's). Having services omitted like this is a classic example.

 

[TUC]

Privatisation was/is, effectively, anti-passenger as it fragments the whole network and introduces artificial boundaries into what should be a seamless system (from both the passengers' point of view and the industry's). Having services omitted like this is a classic example.

Nothing to do with privatisation. Look at how reluctant TfL have been to include National Rail services on their maps.

 

[bleeder4]

I would argue that showing other TOC's trains in the timetable is confusing. If I'm looking at a ScotRail timetable then I would only expect to see ScotRail services in there. We have tickets that are only valid for certain TOCs and certain routes. If, for example, TPE trains are listed in ScotRail's timetable, someone could buy a ScotRail only ticket, turn up to catch the train in the timetable which, unknown to them, is actually TPE and then find their ticket isn't valid. Until the railways are re-nationalised and this web of private companies and arcane tickets is removed, having timetables on a TOC by TOC basis is much less confusing.

 

[ruaival]

I would argue that showing other TOC's trains in the timetable is confusing. If I'm looking at a ScotRail timetable then I would only expect to see ScotRail services in there. We have tickets that are only valid for certain TOCs and certain routes. If, for example, TPE trains are listed in ScotRail's timetable, someone could buy a ScotRail only ticket, turn up to catch the train in the timetable which, unknown to them, is actually TPE and then find their ticket isn't valid. Until the railways are re-nationalised and this web of private companies and arcane tickets is removed, having timetables on a TOC by TOC basis is much less confusing.

and ... I wonder if there is a challenge of printing another TOC's service times when you can't warrant that the information is correct?

Centralised timetables from National Rail makes more sense.

 

[WAB]

I would argue that showing other TOC's trains in the timetable is confusing. If I'm looking at a ScotRail timetable then I would only expect to see ScotRail services in there. We have tickets that are only valid for certain TOCs and certain routes. If, for example, TPE trains are listed in ScotRail's timetable, someone could buy a ScotRail only ticket, turn up to catch the train in the timetable which, unknown to them, is actually TPE and then find their ticket isn't valid. Until the railways are re-nationalised and this web of private companies and arcane tickets is removed, having timetables on a TOC by TOC basis is much less confusing.

It's a little different in Scotland - I think people would reasonably assume that ScotRail covers all journeys within Scotland given that the English TOCs provide very few of the domestic journey options in Scotland. What's more, are there actually that many Scotrail only tickets available?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

This is pretty much one of those issues that only those on this forum have a problem with, in practice.

I would bet that over 95% of rail passengers in 2024 will never once read or rely upon a PDF or paper timetable - as soon as they're printed or published, they're pretty useless given the frequency of amendments, alterations etc. Even the very small minority of people who don't do this will turn up at a ticket office and just get a receipt roll journey print out with their ticket.

Society at large goes to the app or website of their choice, puts in a date and time, and see what services appear.

No timetables should be getting bulk printed at all - it is scandalous that we still print so many - completely unacceptable and not environmentally friendly. Most sit in their boxes at the back of a ticket office before being dumped a few months later.

 

[bleeder4]

This is pretty much one of those issues that only those on this forum have a problem with, in practice.

I would bet that over 95% of rail passengers in 2024 will never once read or rely upon a PDF or paper timetable - as soon as they're printed or published, they're pretty useless given the frequency of amendments, alterations etc. Even the very small minority of people who don't do this will turn up at a ticket office and just get a receipt roll journey print out with their ticket.

Society at large goes to the app or website of their choice, puts in a date and time, and see what services appear.

No timetables should be getting bulk printed at all - it is scandalous that we still print so many - completely unacceptable and not environmentally friendly. Most sit in their boxes at the back of a ticket office before being dumped a few months later.

You're right I think BUT the 5% of rail passengers still using paper timetables will be doing so because they aren't able to use other means to browse them. Same thing with ticket offices. Yes they're only used by a minority, but it's a minority that can't purchase tickets any other way. We have an older generation who have never used smartphones or the Internet and we have a younger generation who are increasingly getting rid of their smartphones due to addiction.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Does anyone who isn’t a gricer still use paper timetables?

Of course the paper timetables issued by a TOC will only contain the services operated by that TOC. Because the TOC can’t verify the information for other TOCs. It’s rare that a TOC will include another TOC’s services; Northern do on some routes (e.g Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester) but not on others (e.g. Manchester-Sheffield or Cumbria-Manchester), but TPE and EMR don’t include each other’s services on Sheffield-Manchester.

 

[ac6000cw]

You're right I think BUT the 5% of rail passengers still using paper timetables will be doing so because they aren't able to use other means to browse them.

They can phone for train times - from the NRE website:



I've been a railway enthusiast since before the 'internet age', but I haven't used a 'paper' timetable (outside of heritage railway gala events) for many years - why bother when you can use a journey planner to work out all the connections etc.?

I suspect that by now there's quite a lot of people who wouldn't understand how to read a traditional column-based railway timetable sheet, even less cross-reference multiple timetables to work out connections.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I would argue that showing other TOC's trains in the timetable is confusing. If I'm looking at a ScotRail timetable then I would only expect to see ScotRail services in there. We have tickets that are only valid for certain TOCs and certain routes. If, for example, TPE trains are listed in ScotRail's timetable, someone could buy a ScotRail only ticket, turn up to catch the train in the timetable which, unknown to them, is actually TPE and then find their ticket isn't valid. Until the railways are re-nationalised and this web of private companies and arcane tickets is removed, having timetables on a TOC by TOC basis is much less confusing.

Are you seriously suggesting it is less confusing to have to consult possibly as many as four different timetables to work out a simple journey from A to B? (eg LNER, Lumo, TPE, Northern between Newcastle and Morpeth). And what about those who have open tickets, or haven't yet bought one (who are the only ones for whom a timetable is necessary - if you have an advance ticket your effective timetable is whittled down to a single train)

The solution is simple, and illustrated by LMRs timetables, which show the operator in the column heading.

All the operators on the ECML within Scotland are nationalised anyway, so should be seen as complementary, not competing.

And hiding other operators' services is cutting off your nose to spite your face - if a potential passenger cannot see a suitable outward service that suits their needs, they won't travel at all, (at least not by rail) denying Scotrail the fare they would otherwise have had for the return leg (or vice versa)

 

[BRX]

A paper timetable is still very useful if you are new to or visiting an area. For example, they tend to contain a network map that lets you have an overview of where rail services run and what places they connect.

On top of that they let you get a quick overview of how frequent services are and what the calling patterns are like. If you are somewhere that you can choose between a couple of stations then they let you quickly see whether it's worth travelling to the further away one in order to take advantage of a more convenient departure time.

And of course they still work if your phone dies, or there is no reception, or you don't have a data plan, or if you're someone that's not comfortable with online journey planners.

There might be an argument that the number of people they are useful to is shrinking rapidly - however, if you're going to print a timetable, then you might as well make it useful to these specific people. And omitting services does not do that.

 

[Buzby]

Realistically - and this has been mentioned previously, most will use journey planners and accept the route suggested - not try to source a timetable that may (or may not be comprehensive). I used to be waiting for the twice annual BR published timetable - but then you had to ensure you got the updates. It is less confusing to be presented with an electronic version that reflects the actual times of your trains of interest - and for good measure be given live running times and delay info.

Expecting a published timetable to be 100% accurate is something I’ve learned the hard way - it’ll become increasingly less relevant as time passes, and how many people check the validity dates - or notice the train they wish to use doesn't run on a Saturday?

They do have some use - but complaining that they’re not comprehensive enough is stretching incredulity to its limits.

 

[Krokodil]

You're right I think BUT the 5% of rail passengers still using paper timetables will be doing so because they aren't able to use other means to browse them. Same thing with ticket offices. Yes they're only used by a minority, but it's a minority that can't purchase tickets any other way. We have an older generation who have never used smartphones or the Internet and we have a younger generation who are increasingly getting rid of their smartphones due to addiction.

At the very least there should be up-to-date posters provided.

 

[azt]

This is pretty much one of those issues that only those on this forum have a problem with, in practice.

I would bet that over 95% of rail passengers in 2024 will never once read or rely upon a PDF or paper timetable - as soon as they're printed or published, they're pretty useless given the frequency of amendments, alterations etc. Even the very small minority of people who don't do this will turn up at a ticket office and just get a receipt roll journey print out with their ticket.

Society at large goes to the app or website of their choice, puts in a date and time, and see what services appear.

No timetables should be getting bulk printed at all - it is scandalous that we still print so many - completely unacceptable and not environmentally friendly. Most sit in their boxes at the back of a ticket office before being dumped a few months later.

I've really taken offence at this statement. What happens if you don't have or need to have a smartphone? I don't have one because I have no need for it. Do you expect me to pay say £20 per month for phone rental for something that I don't need so that I can look at a railway timetable.

I don't want to carry something around that's about the size of an A6 bit pf paper.

The world does not run on smartphones trust me!

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I've really taken offence at this statement. What happens if you don't have or need to have a smartphone? I don't have one because I have no need for it. Do you expect me to pay say £20 per month for phone rental for something that I don't need so that I can look at a railway timetable.

I don't want to carry something around that's about the size of an A6 bit pf paper.

The world does not run on smartphones trust me!

You're posting on an online web forum, you therefore have access to whatever resources you need to print your own.

£20 line rental? You must live in the 1990s, you can get a lot for £5-10 per month, and an extremely basic smartphone for practically nothing these days.

If you chose to opt out of having a smartphone, that's your choice - but you need one to fully participate in the world today, and you are unnecessarily excluding yourself from convenience and, in many cases, offers and deals.

You presumably won't complain that your train doesn't turn up as advertised in the paper timetable when it's been adjusted because of engineering works - because by your logic, you have no means to check?

The world DOES run on smartphones, trust me, and life is still getting increasingly connected. AI especially will accelerate this in the next few years. Nobody is forcing you to have a smartphone, but you can't really complain in 2024 if you are excluded by virtue of not having one. It's getting to be akin to not wanting a bank debit card, because you want to pay by cheque - just awkward and inconvenient.

 

[BRX]

They do have some use - but complaining that they’re not comprehensive enough is stretching incredulity to its limits.

Is complaining that 20% of services running on a particular route are not shown on a timetable for that route, stretching incredulity?