Scotrail HST Question/Idea

[HSTEd]

Why bother you may as well just as stick a 67 or 68 on

And where will this magical supply of 67s or 68s come from?
Who will pay for them?
HST power cars are surplus to requirements and will thus have far lower leasing costs.
A Chilternised DVT, four Mark 4s and a HST power car will give reasonable performance for far less cost than a 'speedster' rake with a 67 or 68 in it.

At least a 2 power car HST offers good performance on a short set along with extra resilience of having 2 power cars.

Resilience in its money burning.
When its public money going down the pan there are trade offs to be made.

1. Would MK4 be available in the required timeframe in the case of Scotrail planned cascade no they wouldn't.

Since the Mark 4's death warrant has also been signed the sets replaced with IEPs can be made available for refit and sublease in any order that DfT commands.
Who says that all the first sets released from the ECML - which will now be ready before GWML thanks to the problems from electrification - all be HSTs?

2. Costs of making HST and MK4's work together and the MK4's 2020 compliant verses the costs of making MK3's 2020 compliant.

Mark 4s are likely to require far less work than the Mark 3s - after all they already have power doors and the like. Additionally the cost of getting them to work together is a chilternised DVT and TDM wiring for the HST power car - both projects that have been done before without major difficulty.

3. Overall running costs is there a significant difference between MK3 and Mk4

I doubt it - there is a slight difference in leasing costs but the Mark 4s have the advantage of being 15 years younger than many of the HST Mark 3s.

5. Is the rolling stock owner interested in using them for such a purpose.

Considering it is either finding a reuse somewhere or the scrapline - they will allow them to be reused.

how is that 415V 3 phase produced?

As I understand it - an auxiliary alternator aboard the power car.
But I am not sure - it might be transformer derived from the main alternator.

 

[jopsuk]

derstand it - an auxiliary alternator aboard the power car.
But I am not sure - it might be transformer derived from the main alternator.

If it's an auxiliary alternator, then rather than a rectiformer or whatever surely a replacement would be possible?

 

[Carntyne]

Massive amount of debate over a plan that's never going to happen. The MK3's and HST will be running in 2018 up here, fully refurbed. No need to go for MK4's or anything else.

 

[47802]

And where will this magical supply of 67s or 68s come from?
Who will pay for them?
HST power cars are surplus to requirements and will thus have far lower leasing costs.
A Chilternised DVT, four Mark 4s and a HST power car will give reasonable performance for far less cost than a 'speedster' rake with a 67 or 68 in it.


Resilience in its money burning.
When its public money going down the pan there are trade offs to be made.


Since the Mark 4's death warrant has also been signed the sets replaced with IEPs can be made available for refit and sublease in any order that DfT commands.
Who says that all the first sets released from the ECML - which will now be ready before GWML thanks to the problems from electrification - all be HSTs?


Mark 4s are likely to require far less work than the Mark 3s - after all they already have power doors and the like. Additionally the cost of getting them to work together is a chilternised DVT and TDM wiring for the HST power car - both projects that have been done before without major difficulty.

I doubt it - there is a slight difference in leasing costs but the Mark 4s have the advantage of being 15 years younger than many of the HST Mark 3s.


Considering it is either finding a reuse somewhere or the scrapline - they will allow them to be reused.


As I understand it - an auxiliary alternator aboard the power car.
But I am not sure - it might be transformer derived from the main alternator.

Maybe a TOC might take up your single power car option at some point although as I said I would seem to me that sticking a 67 or 68 on would be a simpler and more powerful solution, as would 2 HST power cars along with better resilience especially given the preference for better accelerating trains these days. Class 67 aren't exactly overworked at the moment and even less so when they come off Scottish Sleepers, and presumably new 68's or similar would be financed in a similar way to the Chiltern 68's, and of course they also have the potential for non passenger work if needed.

Any change to the introduction of IEP on the East Coast is likely to require negotiation with VTEC and Hitachi.

I don't doubt the costs of making MK4 2020 compliant is a lot less the MK3's but you still have the cost of making HST's work with MK4's which I guess may still be cheaper than adding power doors to Mk3's

We also don't whether or not some other usage might emerge for the MK4 might emerge in the next few years.

As has already been said you seem to be keen to pick an argument for something that's not likely to happen at least as far as Scotrail is concerned.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Just on length of coaches is there many lines that a Mk4 couldn't run on where it'd be loong long where a Mk3 can run on?

 

[47802]

Just on length of coaches is there many lines that a Mk4 couldn't run on where it'd be loong long where a Mk3 can run on?

Both coaches are nominally the same length i.e. 23m

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Massive amount of debate over a plan that's never going to happen. The MK3's and HST will be running in 2018 up here, fully refurbed. No need to go for MK4's or anything else.

Not only that, but Mk4s don't become free till 2020, when VTEC starts getting its second IEP tranche.
The first tranche replaces its HSTs.

 

[Clansman]

The idea in itself is logical and would certainly cost less than the current plans (I'd imagine) as well as posing other benefits the HSTs may not offer in comparison, but as stated the Mk4s and Mk4 DVTs aren't due to be replaced until at least 2020, which goes against Scotrail franchising commitments which constrain the time scale of the introduction of a higher grade of Intercity trains throughout Scotland by 2018.

See here for any information and/or full details regarding the existing HST plan drawn up by Scotail to avoid deviating from the original topic of the thread.