Scotrail HST Question/Idea

[Liam_Hendry]

Since Scotrail are getting some HST sets in 2017 being replaced by the Class 800/801 wouldnt it make more sense to use the MK4s and DVTs getting replaced aswell, and getting 68s or other locos to haul it? Reason being is that the Mk3 coaches need quite a bit of refurbishment with the addition of plug doors, interconnecting gangway doors, newer bigger toilets and waste system, new livery and electronic destination boards etc. As much as I love the good old Mk3s and 43s, the Mk4s and DVTs are that little bit more modern with already built in plug doors and bigger toilets, much newer loco engine and wouldnt need interconnecting gangway doors. They basically need a new livery, interior and other minor refurbishments. Plus the HST sets will probably be abbreviated to 5 coaches, and with 2 MTU 43s at either end thats a load of horsepower! Wouldnt it be cheaper, better and more efficient to use Mk4s, DVT and a more modern loco such as the 68 (which Scotrail already have a couple) and do what Chiltern are doing by using the Push/Pull system?

No offence to the 125 enthusiasts

 

[Tempest3K]

VTEC are retaining some of the 91/MK4 sets after IEP - I'm not sure there would be enough left? Also, the ROSCO's will want to lease them all as complete sets - where would the 91's go if you used the MK4s & DVTs elsewhere?

 

[Carntyne]

It needs the 2x HST per train to get the speed gains necessary.

I believe the Mk4's operate on a difference power supply too.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Mk4s aren't cleared to go north of Edinburgh even if diesel-hauled, I seem to recall.

In the ScotRail franchising process, one of the major aspects of the bid was the speed of the InterCity services. There was an incentive for bidders to go for faster trains, even though they would have higher leasing costs. A loco-hauled rake wouldn't be able to go much faster, if even the same speed, because it wouldn't be able to use the HST or Sprinter differential speeds across the network. Since the ITT also demanded that there be no toilet smell or other general nastiness, it made it difficult for bidders to propose using Voyagers, really leaving the HST power cars as one of the few remaining existing trains that could be used. Mk4 sets use a standard 1000V power supply but HST power cars provide a three phase 415V supply, so that's one problem with using Mk4 carriages in HST rakes. The other is that for every pair of HST power cars freed up for use by ScotRail, there will be a whole set of intermediate carriages freed up as well, which would be heading to the scrapyard if they're not used. The leasing company then just needs to charge for the cost of refurbishing the carriages, a process which has already been performed on the Chiltern Mk3 sets.

 

[ainsworth74]

I believe the Mk4's operate on a difference power supply too.

Mk4s use the standard power supply that all loco hauled stock in GB use so are compatible with any locomotive that can supply ETS apart from Class 43s which are only compatible with HST hauled Mk3s.

Mk4s aren't cleared to go north of Edinburgh even if diesel-hauled, I seem to recall.

Surely that's just no-one's bothered to run the paperwork rather than an actual issue?

 

[47802]

Since Scotrail are getting some HST sets in 2017 being replaced by the Class 800/801 wouldnt it make more sense to use the MK4s and DVTs getting replaced aswell, and getting 68s or other locos to haul it? Reason being is that the Mk3 coaches need quite a bit of refurbishment with the addition of plug doors, interconnecting gangway doors, newer bigger toilets and waste system, new livery and electronic destination boards etc. As much as I love the good old Mk3s and 43s, the Mk4s and DVTs are that little bit more modern with already built in plug doors and bigger toilets, much newer loco engine and wouldnt need interconnecting gangway doors. They basically need a new livery, interior and other minor refurbishments. Plus the HST sets will probably be abbreviated to 5 coaches, and with 2 MTU 43s at either end thats a load of horsepower! Wouldnt it be cheaper, better and more efficient to use Mk4s, DVT and a more modern loco such as the 68 (which Scotrail already have a couple) and do what Chiltern are doing by using the Push/Pull system?

No offence to the 125 enthusiasts

Mk4 coaching stock would not have been available in the required timescale although the way GW electrification is going it might be debatable as to whether the HST's will be either.

Alegidly one of the bidders offered new Loco Hauled stock but Transport for Scotland preferred the HST option.

Personally I'm not keen on the loco hauled option seems like yesturday's technology to me, but on the other hand by the end of the franchise Scotrail is going to have some very ancient trains not just HST's but Sprinters as well and I doubt Electrification will be able to replace a lot of those trains by then.

 

[HLE]

I reckon some of the MK 4 sets will end up on the GEML

 

[dubscottie]

Mk4s aren't cleared to go north of Edinburgh even if diesel-hauled, I seem to recall.

They made it over the Forth Bridge as far as Inverkeithing/Rosyth.

 

[najaB]

They made it over the Forth Bridge as far as Inverkeithing/Rosyth.

What was the occasion?

 

[dubscottie]

What was the occasion?

They were getting repainted into GNER livery at Rosyth Dockyard around 1997-8.

IIRC they were the only place that could achieve the high gloss finish that GNER wanted.

 

[Chris125]

Since Scotrail are getting some HST sets in 2017 being replaced by the Class 800/801 wouldnt it make more sense to use the MK4s and DVTs getting replaced aswell, and getting 68s or other locos to haul it?

Easier still, just stick a power car at each end and modify either them or the mk4s to cope with the different power supply - alas they were unlikely to be available in the required timescale for Scotrail, but it would seem an option for other operators wishing to make further use of HSTs.

Chris

 

[Emblematic]

Bear in mind there are very few Mk4 carriages, just 302 remaining. Of these:

• VTEC are proposing to keep 42-56 for Edinburgh services, provided they get ORR approval
• The GA franchisee will need to replace 130 Mk3 LHCS, or else Chilternise their existing sets, by 2020
• MML franchisee faces a similar problem for their dozen or so HSTs

Given that the latter two franchises are due for renewal in 2016 and 2018, even if the new/renewing franchisee orders new trains they will be hard pressed to get them in time for the December 2019 PRM TSI deadline. So I think the Mk4s will be fully utilised until the early 2020s at least.

 

[alexl92]

Wouldnt it be cheaper, better and more efficient to use Mk4s, DVT and a more modern loco such as the 68 (which Scotrail already have a couple) and do what Chiltern are doing by using the Push/Pull system?

Not only should that say 'of which ScotRail already have a couple'...
...but the 68s, although in ScotRail colours, actually belong to DRS, which will also be the case for the next two batches of 68s delivered. So not as simple as just having the locos. They'd have to be leased from DRS - which would require negotiation as I'd imagine DRS already have a few contracts lined up for them - Tesco Intermodals amongst other things.

 

[dubscottie]

What was the occasion?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jadmor/2431533503/in/photolist-4GSfcr


Passing the now gone Caldwells papermill on the Rosyth Dockyard branch from Inverkeithing.

 

[najaB]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jadmor/2431533503/in/photolist-4GSfcr


Passing the now gone Caldwells papermill on the Rosyth Dockyard branch from Inverkeithing.

Thanks.

 

[Steve14]

Here's how it should go down:

- Cascading some of the 225 Mk4 sets to GA and upgrade their line speed to 125 (Quicker times to Norwich)
- Cascade over the GA Mk3 stock over to ScotsRail with the DVTs and use 67s as a power motive alongside getting the HSTs
- Any additional Mk3s being distributed between XC, EMT, Chiltern and FGW to boost their capacity

 

[CosherB]

Here's how it should go down:

- Cascading some of the 225 Mk4 sets to GA and upgrade their line speed to 125 (Quicker times to Norwich)
- Cascade over the GA Mk3 stock over to ScotsRail with the DVTs and use 67s as a power motive alongside getting the HSTs
- Any additional Mk3s being distributed between XC, EMT, Chiltern and FGW to boost their capacity

1. Is that even feasible?
2. DVTs will need converting to AAR to operate with 67's. Would they be able to keep up with a shortened HST?
3. Do any of these TOC's, with the possible exception of Chiltern, need or even want Mk3 LHCS?

Top prize for today's most optimistic post!

 

[colchesterken]

Would the 91s and mk 4 stock have the power to improve the GEML.We need loads of power to improve timings
I had a "super power" idea chilternise the mk3s and top and tail cl90s with one motor on each loco unplugged giving 7500 hp.. that should keep up with the 360s for power to weight ratio

 

[D365]

I had a "super power" idea chilternise the mk3s and top and tail cl90s with one motor on each loco unplugged giving 7500 hp.. that should keep up with the 360s for power to weight ratio

If a proposal to improve the performance of InterCity service does come about, but without a wholescale LHCS replacement, it would have to be brand-new locomotives. For an ageing locomotive type, to be quite frank, I'm not sure what doubling the Norwich fleet would bring.

We need loads of power to improve timings

 

[47802]

Here's how it should go down:

- Cascading some of the 225 Mk4 sets to GA and upgrade their line speed to 125 (Quicker times to Norwich)
- Cascade over the GA Mk3 stock over to ScotsRail with the DVTs and use 67s as a power motive alongside getting the HSTs
- Any additional Mk3s being distributed between XC, EMT, Chiltern and FGW to boost their capacity

The GA line will most likely get new EMU's, I suppose refurbished MK4's with new Locomotives might be proposed as an alternative, the GA MK3's will probably get scrapped or perhaps taken up by some charter companies, by which time the oldest MK3 Loco Hauled coaches will be about 45 years old anyway.

Why on earth would Scotrail want Loco Hauled MK3's when they are getting HST's, I see little point in any additional Loco Hauled MK3 Diesel Trains when up to about 49 sets of HST's will be available in a few years time.

Why would FGW want additional MK3's when they are getting a large new fleet of EMU's and large fleet of IEP/AT300's

XC and EMT will probably either get additional HST's or a new Build of AT300's

As for Chiltern they will probably take more 16x or 170x if they can get them.

While back to Scotrail the franchise agreement says they are getting 27 HST's end of argument really.

 

[HSTEd]

It is worth noting that a HST power could potentially be refitted to work with the Mark 4s.
They would have to be fitted with TDM (which has been done before) and a rectiformer to produce loco hauled ETS power.
That hasn't been done before but tehy have a handy little space in the luggage compartment.

No real reason to do that however......
Plenty of HST Mark 3s to go around and they can have the pick of the litter - especially given the very short trains that are currently proposed. Indeed they are so short you could almost form a single TDM fitted HST power car up with 4 Mark 4s and a DVT that has been chilternised to have a separate ETS generator.

 

[najaB]

... Indeed they are so short you could almost form a single TDM fitted HST power car up with 4 Mark 4s and a DVT that has been chilternised to have a separate ETS generator.

Hey! No turning the SportsTrain™ into a people carrier.

 

[D365]

Hey! No turning the SportsTrain™ into a people carrier.

Tell me that's a reference to Jezza's TGV12

 

[jopsuk]

No real reason to do that however......
Plenty of HST Mark 3s to go around and they can have the pick of the litter - especially given the very short trains that are currently proposed. Indeed they are so short you could almost form a single TDM fitted HST power car up with 4 Mark 4s and a DVT that has been chilternised to have a separate ETS generator.

Why fit the DVT with kit? Why not replace the ETS supply of the HST power car?

 

[HSTEd]

Why fit the DVT with kit? Why not replace the ETS supply of the HST power car?

The ETS refit would require additional equipment, the aforementioned rectiformer, be installed aboard the HST power car, probably in the luggage compartment.

That would require additional work on the power cars that could easily get expensive - the DVTs have more space and so a generator could fit there, and would allow the HST engine to be turned off instead of being left running for ETS purposes.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

It is worth noting that a HST power could potentially be refitted to work with the Mark 4s.
They would have to be fitted with TDM (which has been done before) and a rectiformer to produce loco hauled ETS power.
That hasn't been done before but tehy have a handy little space in the luggage compartment.

No real reason to do that however......
Plenty of HST Mark 3s to go around and they can have the pick of the litter - especially given the very short trains that are currently proposed. Indeed they are so short you could almost form a single TDM fitted HST power car up with 4 Mark 4s and a DVT that has been chilternised to have a separate ETS generator.

Does a Mk4 draw much more power from the loco hauling it then what a Mk3 does?

 

[HSTEd]

Does a Mk4 draw much more power from the loco hauling it then what a Mk3 does?

No, but a HST cannot supply loco hauled style ~1000V ETS power.
It can only supply 415V 3ph power which is used on HST trailers.

It is why loco hauled Mark 3s have a motor generator used to generate the three phase from the loco ETS supply.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How large is the motor generator? Would it fit inside the guards/luggage area of a HST power car without taking up all the room?

 

[jopsuk]

how is that 415V 3 phase produced?

 

[47802]

It is worth noting that a HST power could potentially be refitted to work with the Mark 4s.
They would have to be fitted with TDM (which has been done before) and a rectiformer to produce loco hauled ETS power.
That hasn't been done before but tehy have a handy little space in the luggage compartment.

No real reason to do that however......
Plenty of HST Mark 3s to go around and they can have the pick of the litter - especially given the very short trains that are currently proposed. Indeed they are so short you could almost form a single TDM fitted HST power car up with 4 Mark 4s and a DVT that has been chilternised to have a separate ETS generator.

Why bother you may as well just as stick a 67 or 68 on

At least a 2 power car HST offers good performance on a short set along with extra resilience of having 2 power cars.

As far as sticking MK4 coaches into HST goes surely it come down to the following factors.

1. Would MK4 be available in the required timeframe in the case of Scotrail planned cascade no they wouldn't.

2. Costs of making HST and MK4's work together and the MK4's 2020 compliant verses the costs of making MK3's 2020 compliant.

3. Overall running costs is there a significant difference between MK3 and Mk4

4. Passenger comfort and ambience, I don't personally like MK4 coaches that much but they still look and feel fairly modern, where as even the more heavily refurbished MK3's don't entirely disguise the fact they are ancient.

5. Is the rolling stock owner interested in using them for such a purpose.