ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[CJSwan]

The conductors are getting a couple of hours training on slam doors... But there are still a large number of conductors across most depots who have yet to have the training. I have had slam door training, but still waiting for the ‘iconic’/refurbed set to reappear to be trained on that.

There are still a lot of drivers waiting for HST training, or whose competency has run out...

 

[JohnMcL7]

What are the provisions for carrying bikes on the slam door stock?

 

[47271]

Is this down to a specific HST failure?

Something I've been harking on about for months, how to objectively measure the change.

How can the overall performance, intro and success/failure of the HSTs be accurately and objectively measured and fairly compared to what came before?

Those who are prejudiced against the HSTs will leap on any individual failure and laud the "good old days" of the 170s, when, in fact, plenty 170s failed too and plenty are glad to see the back of them for other reasons - primarily, lack of comfort and capacity. Whereas pro-HST people, like me, would say the first couple of days of such a huge change have, on the whole, been a success.

What we do know, and I'm quoting 43096's post from late November:

Just to do the comparison, admittedly using data that is 12 months old (from Modern Railways in January):
ScotRail 170s 13,319 MTIN
GWR HSTs 6,578 MTIN

So unless Scotrail maintenance has substantially improved the reliability of the unrefurbed GWR sets, and so long as I'm interpreting the figures correctly, I'm expecting to be inconvenienced twice as frequently when I travel by HST versus 170. That isn't too bad when I consider that I've probably only been held up twice by a 170 train fault in the past year, although I've been held up by plenty of other things besides. So I'm expecting four HST incidents in the coming year if I continue to travel at the rate I do now, which is a lot.

My track record so far is 100% cancellation on HSTs based on a sample of one journey attempted. That was a very poor start but it hasn't made me more or less in favour of the programme.

They just need to make sure that the things don't get a reputation for breaking down. At the moment they do have that reputation in my mind!

 

[SouthSub]

Recent engineering works meant Glasgow to Aberdeen trains were diverted via the Forth Bridge, using the line between Winchburgh and Dalmeny junctions. Are HSTs cleared for this line? (I'd like to think so, given it's the most sensible diversion route for northbound trains when works are on)

 

[najaB]

Are HSTs cleared for this line?

I'd be very surprised if they aren't physically cleared, though I don't have any idea how often drivers get a chance to use the Dalmeny Chord, and if those drivers are also HST trained.

 

[mcmad]

Theres at least 1 daily service each way so there must be a pool of drivers with the route knowledge. Whether Scotrail have done the Venn diagram of those with route knowledge and those with HST knowledge is open to debate at the moment.

 

[InvHst]

Numerous removals of hsts from service last few days anybody know why? It's looking pretty shocking on ScotRails side

 

[najaB]

Numerous removals of hsts from service last few days anybody know why? It's looking pretty shocking on ScotRails side

Is it more or less than any other 'new to operator' fleet?

 

[scotraildriver]

It's more to do with not enough guards trained yet and last night's fatality has left 3 HSTs in the wrong place or unfueled so not many in service today. Problems too with rain pouring into some of the coaches through the many holes in the roofs.

 

[BRX]

Are the current HST diagrams available anywhere at the moment?

 

[Esker-pades]

Are the current HST diagrams available anywhere at the moment?

See this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/scotrail-inter7city-hst-diagrams.171933/

 

[computerSaysNo]

Are the current HST diagrams available anywhere at the moment?

Note: Subject to confirmation still, 75% accuracy. Credit to gen from Facebook.

ScotRail HST diagrams - 10th December to 19th May

0530 Edinburgh - Aberdeen 0819
0904 Aberdeen - Edinburgh 1139
1230 Edinburgh - Aberdeen 1450
1538 Aberdeen - Glasgow QS 1817 (calls Invergowrie)
1840 Glasgow QS Aberdeen 2123
2156 Aberdeen - Inverness 0007

0554 Inverness - Aberdeen 0811
0851 Aberdeen - Glasgow QS 1111
1139 Glasgow - Aberdeen 1411
1442 Aberdeen - Glasgow QS 1712
1741 Glasgow QS - Aberdeen 2032
2107 Aberdeen - Edinburgh 2329

0730 Edinburgh - Aberdeen 0956
1102 Aberdeen - Edinburgh 1332
1530 Edinburgh - Aberdeen 1755
1916 Aberdeen - Edinburgh 2136

0833 Edinburgh - Inverness 1159
1255 Inverness - Edinburgh 1631
1739 Edinburgh- Inverness 2100

0453 Inverness - Edinburgh 0932 (via Aberdeen)
1130 Edinburgh - Aberdeen 1354
1600 Aberdeen - Edinburgh 1834
1934 Edinburgh - Aberdeen 2151

0614 Aberdeen - Inverness 0832
0944 Inverness - Edinburgh 1325
1336 Edinburgh - Inverness 1707
1728 Inverness - Glasgow QS 2044 (calls Bridge of Allan)
5T62 21+12 Glasgow QS - Perth 22+14

5A53 06+47 Perth - Glasgow QS 08+12
0838 Glasgow QS - Aberdeen 1121
1247 Aberdeen - Glasgow QS 1514
1539 Glasgow QS - Aberdeen 1822
1837 Aberdeen - Glasgow QS 2113
2140 Glasgow QS - Aberdeen 0030 (calls Broughty Ferry & Monifieth)

0548 Aberdeen - Edinburgh 0824
0929 Edinburgh - Aberdeen 1151
1312 Aberdeen - Edinburgh 1533
1627 Edinburgh - Aberdeen 1911
2009 Aberdeen - Edinburgh 2247

0553 GlasgowQS - Aberdeen 0846 (calls Larbert)
0942 Aberdeen - Glasgow QS 1212
1237 Glasgow QS- Aberdeen 1514
1630 Aberdeen - Glasgow QS 1916
1940 Glasgow QS - Aberdeen 2220

0640 Aberdeen - Glasgow QS 0913
0939 Glasgow QS - Aberdeen 1238
1357 Aberdeen - Edinburgh 1625
1736 Edinburgh - Aberdeen 2003
2044 Aberdeen - Glasgow QS 2320

Note: most Inverness turns call at Edinburgh Gateway

From the ScotRail HST Diagrams thread.

Using this data I have produced a copy of the timetables, with the HST-operated services highlighted in yellow (see attached files) (weekdays only, I haven't had a chance to do the weekend diagrams yet).

 

[BRX]

From the ScotRail HST Diagrams thread.

Using this data I have produced a copy of the timetables, with the HST-operated services highlighted in yellow (see attached files) (weekdays only, I haven't had a chance to do the weekend diagrams yet).

that's great...thanks!

 

[Highland37]

Who wants to bet that Wabtec will finish the year having delivered one set to Scotrail?

 

[Bassman]

My experience today travelling from Glasgow Queen Street to Inverness: the 12.37 HST to Aberdeen, was replaced with a 170, and passing two classic ( or Jurassic as now called by some staff) HSTs at Eastfield.
At Perth transferring onto the Highland mainline learned that the 13.37 HST from Edinburgh to Inverness cancelled and replaced by bus to Perth.
The service was replaced by a 170 from Perth which was further delayed by a late south running HST at Dunkeld . After Blair Atholl the 170 lost power on the lead car, and hence had no lights. After sitting at Dalwhinnie, it went forward at 20mph to Kingussie when passengers changed trains with a southbound 170. The original 170 returned to Perth with the lead car having light and power. After standing in the cold at Kingussie we were able to travel north (with an unattended trolley), arriving two hours late in Inverness. Staff philosophical and kept passengers in reasonable cheer. Such are the experiences to common on our antiquated railway. We will it to be better.

 

[Pete_uk]

But isn't it the best railway you have ever had?

 

[chuff chuff]

Can't say I'm overly surprised over the problems their having getting these things into service on a daily basis.

 

[greyman42]

Who wants to bet that Wabtec will finish the year having delivered one set to Scotrail?

Was there not meant to be a set stood at Wabtec for imminent delivery a number of weeks ago. Are they still snagging it?

 

[BRX]

This all sounds a bit similar to what happened on Thameslink at the timetable changeover - everything went into meltdown because there weren't sufficient staff trained. Lots of people point their fingers at the new timetable, but there is no way of knowing whether there is a fundamental issue with the timetable until the staffing issues are sorted out and it's given a chance to function as intended. I hope the same fate doesn't befall the HSTs - they get a reputation for being unreliable but in fact they are being cancelled on account of staffing issues.

 

[Bassman]

Totally agree. I am writing this from the top deck of a TGV Duplex at 183 mph Night and day to anything in the UK.

Definitely agree on the lack of strategic long term investment in our railways, and particularly in the North. We have the scenario of basically a Victorian railway as part of the infrastructure for a future Spaceport in Caithness! Our northern railway lines have been forgotten in their strategic value by local and national politicians, unlike those in northern Scandinavia which see long term investment on infrastructure as opening out opportunity, business, and social mobility in remote areas.
To be fair on Scotrail, the staff I spoke to yesterday were also disappointed not to be running the HST's. It would not surprise me if some of the HST stock may have suffered even more in the last few years, by a lack of conscientious and future proofing repairs, in the face of their imminent withdrawal.

 

[SC43090]

So does Scotland. Much more of France is electrified. Surely we don't have to argue about that?

Back on topic, is the second still stuck in Wabtec Mean Time

I assume its still in Wabtec as on Wednesday 12th December 2018 there was 3 Scotrail Power cars in the sidings 2 paired up back to back & another stood in front of XC TGS coach 44021

SC 43090

 

[SC43090]

Some observations for Saturday 16th December 2018...... Thanks to Saxilby correspondent for those observations

ECS on Eastfield Depot 43146 44011 42033 42035 40210 43133

1B18 0904 Aberdeen Edinburgh 43026 41146 42300 42299 44040 43136

1A63 1238 Glasgow QS Aberdeen 43125 41180 42268 42296 44024 43141..... Terminated at Perth due to no crew to go forward.... Passengers transferred to replacement buses

43143 43036 stabled in Dundee yard

SC 43090

 

[Stoney1979]

I noticed some trouble on the HML today, Saturday. Various services north of Perth were cancelled.

I was wondering why, so looked up SR website. Stated there that the cancellations were due to the current weather warnings, which seems odd as the LNER made it up there this evening afaik. It was certainly on course to the last time I looked, albeit it was south of Perth then.

Sounds more plausible that the cancellations were due to lack of crew rather than weather / HST problems. Some of the cancelled services were 170s anyway.

 

[Stoney1979]

Erm, oops, the LNER is in fact running 2.5 hours late and counting.

 

[Highlandspring]

The cancellations on the Highland Main Line today were part of an emergency timetable which was agreed between NR and ScotRail and put in place last night in advance of the forecast bad weather.

 

[Stoney1979]

The cancellations on the Highland Main Line today were part of an emergency timetable which was agreed between NR and ScotRail and put in place last night in advance of the forecast bad weather.

Fair enough, thanks. So effectively a pre-agreed reduced service due to the weather then.

 

[Highlandspring]

Yes exactly. There have been problems at Aviemore (power failure), Blair Atholl and Dalwhinnie (snow causing points and signal failures) today so the cautious approach has been reasonably justified.

 

[haggishunter]

The cancellations on the Highland Main Line today were part of an emergency timetable which was agreed between NR and ScotRail and put in place last night in advance of the forecast bad weather.

So AM trains were cancelled because snow was forecast to fall after dusk? How convenient there was a weather warning out when ScotRail was making an arse of it all by themselves anyway. Not training the staff or employing enough staff to implement a timetable change, then going ahead anyway when they knew it couldn't work is incompetence.

Abelio promised the earth and have delivered absolutely nothing other than an ever increasing shambles. Bit like Natural Retreats did on a much smaller scale on CairnGorm, but we've reached a point where the outcome deserves to be the same.

 

[Esker-pades]

So AM trains were cancelled because snow was forecast to fall after dusk? How convenient there was a weather warning out when ScotRail was making an arse of it all by themselves anyway. Not training the staff or employing enough staff to implement a timetable change, then going ahead anyway when they knew it couldn't work is incompetence.

Abelio promised the earth and have delivered absolutely nothing other than an ever increasing shambles. Bit like Natural Retreats did on a much smaller scale on CairnGorm, but we've reached a point where the outcome deserves to be the same.

They have to think about crew and stock locations. Planned cancellations due to problem weather is annoying, but helps reduce knock-on effects from VTSP (very short term plan) alterations.

I'm still not a fan of the new timetables.

 

[Highlandspring]

So AM trains were cancelled because snow was forecast to fall after dusk? How convenient there was a weather warning out when ScotRail was making an arse of it all by themselves anyway. Not training the staff or employing enough staff to implement a timetable change, then going ahead anyway when they knew it couldn't work is incompetence.

The weather forecast was for a high risk of strong winds, snowfall and ice over the Highland Main Line route from 0900 on Sat to 0600 on Sun. The highly detailed forecast and weather data used comes from a specialist meteorological company (Metdesk) and is localised to particular railway routes.

But yeah you’re right, it was a conspiracy.