ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Aictos]

Imagine that, an alarm that gets your attention. What will they think of next?

Platform staff with white gloves to push on as many passengers as possible onto a set

 

[Bletchleyite]

Imagine that, an alarm that gets your attention. What will they think of next?

It's not for that purpose, though. It only exists (unlike the doors closing alarm which is nowhere near as piercing) to indicate to people with visual disabilities that the doors have been released.

 

[BRX]

I really don't understand how anyone could have thought that a design with 1/3 2/3 doors and no vestibules was suitable for the HML. Like others described here, my journeys to and from Inverness have been planned around the Chieftain for years with occasional deviation to a scotrail service when unavoidable and I think I remember the first time I found myself on a 170, probably expecting a 158. I was a bit baffled why this suburban type unit was running through the mountains of the central highlands in the middle of winter.

 

[gsnedders]

I really don't understand how anyone could have thought that a design with 1/3 2/3 doors and no vestibules was suitable for the HML. Like others described here, my journeys to and from Inverness have been planned around the Chieftain for years with occasional deviation to a scotrail service when unavoidable and I think I remember the first time I found myself on a 170, probably expecting a 158. I was a bit baffled why this suburban type unit was running through the mountains of the central highlands in the middle of winter.

The only end-door DMU available at the time the 170s were ordered was the Coradia, I think? The order book for the Voyager/Meridian may have been open by then, but delivery would've been years away? Neither the Coradia nor the Voyager/Meridian have great reputations, so we'd probably just be complaining about something else.

I suspect a large part of the order being all 170s is just simplifying maintenance and diagramming by just having a single set of units (well, originally some separation between those with/without 1st, but that's largely gone now).

 

[najaB]

It's not for that purpose, though

It's still an alarm, or an alert if you prefer.

 

[TheMuttley]

It's still an alarm, or an alert if you prefer.

I must admit - I find it very annoying. The justification for the alarm/alert is not being questioned, I think? My beef is that the volume of said alarm (on the refurbished 158s, specifically) is far, far in excess of what is required to actually achieve its intended task, to the point where it is at risk of damaging the hearing of those poor souls who happen to be nearby ... hence the description as "piercing", perhaps. I have quite a different description for it but if I repeat it here, the mods might tell me off. Mind you, they might do that anyway as this topic is not really relevant to this thread...

 

[najaB]

My beef is that the volume of said alarm (on the refurbished 158s, specifically) is far, far in excess of what is required to actually achieve its intended task

But, but... if it isn't loud, how will it be heard over the roar (roar I tell you!) of the underslung DMU engines?

 

[AndrewE]

But, but... if it isn't loud, how will it be heard over the roar (roar I tell you!) of the underslung DMU engines?

If it's a "doors unlocked" alert, aren't the engines only idling at that point? Maybe a cooler fan still running? I'll have to listen out on my next visit north...

 

[380101]

I must admit - I find it very annoying. The justification for the alarm/alert is not being questioned, I think? My beef is that the volume of said alarm (on the refurbished 158s, specifically) is far, far in excess of what is required to actually achieve its intended task, to the point where it is at risk of damaging the hearing of those poor souls who happen to be nearby ... hence the description as "piercing", perhaps. I have quite a different description for it but if I repeat it here, the mods might tell me off. Mind you, they might do that anyway as this topic is not really relevant to this thread...

This "new" 158 doors released alarm has been raised by lots of Conductors due to the loudness of it. Usual empty promises from fleet management to investigate and come up with a solution.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But, but... if it isn't loud, how will it be heard over the roar (roar I tell you!) of the underslung DMU engines?

It's not as loud on Voyagers, but you can hear it well enough and nothing makes a racket like an idling Voyager.

 

[najaB]

If it's a "doors unlocked" alert, aren't the engines only idling at that point?

I know, it was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the fact that some people hold that it's impossible to hear anything in a DMU.

 

[ScotTrains]

Precisely. She was happy to concede that the extra time was worth it for the better comfort and reduced stress. There are many like her. It isn't even a debate really, it is common practice travelling to and from Inverness.

When traveling from Glasgow to Aberdeen I often take the XC to Edinburgh then take the East Coast train to Aberdeen. It's a slightly longer journey but far better than taking the scotrail 170. The very poor availablity of scotrail 1st advance tickets means it is often far cheaper to go via Edinburgh on XC/EC using 1st advances. The trains are nicer and 1st class offering far superior (nicer seat, dinner and alcohol, lounge access, etc).

Scotrail's 1st class offering is likely to improve (though they have got rid of all bar one of their 1st class lounges) with the HSTs but unless they improve advance ticket availability, no-one is going to fork out for an expensive anytime 1st ticket when cheaper and better, if a little longer, alternatives are available.

 

[jingsmonty]

The point about the Highland Chieftan is obvious to anyone in Inverness station when the train leaves or arrives. People certainly plan their journeys around these services. Same in Aberdeen. Sao the passengers don't care isn't true.

The point you make about semi-retirement I don't agree with. The speed they operate at and the number off hours makes no difference to corroded pipework etc, in fact less operation may make that worse. However the public will put up with a bit of unreliability for a better service. And a seat.

The point about less intensive use was said to me by one of the maintenance team leaders, agree that this has no effect on corroded pipework, etc - you're spot on with that. And I take your point that less intensive use may be detrimental to some components.

However, the engines/mechanical components WILL be much less intensively used - to give an example, one of the HST trainers told me that the expected fuel economy of a 4/5 car Scotrail HST will be over twice what was achievable in their GWR days....in fact, expected fuel economy is calculated to be comparable (& slightly better than) a 4 car Class 158! Clearly, they will not be worked anything like as hard as they were on GWR.....

I think we will have to expect the odd failure in service....I fear that the press will jump on this as soon as it happens. We get failures just now anyway - I was passenger a few weeks ago on an Aberdeen to Glasgow Queen St 170 which terminated at Perth, due to a lack of toilets!!

 

[Northhighland]

The point about less intensive use was said to me by one of the maintenance team leaders, agree that this has no effect on corroded pipework, etc - you're spot on with that. And I take your point that less intensive use may be detrimental to some components.

However, the engines/mechanical components WILL be much less intensively used - to give an example, one of the HST trainers told me that the expected fuel economy of a 4/5 car Scotrail HST will be over twice what was achievable in their GWR days....in fact, expected fuel economy is calculated to be comparable (& slightly better than) a 4 car Class 158! Clearly, they will not be worked anything like as hard as they were on GWR.....

I think we will have to expect the odd failure in service....I fear that the press will jump on this as soon as it happens. We get failures just now anyway - I was passenger a few weeks ago on an Aberdeen to Glasgow Queen St 170 which terminated at Perth, due to a lack of toilets!!

That is quite an impressive claim on fuel economy, certainly a much better experience than a 158. the press can jump about all they like passengers will be tolerant of a few teething troubles. Maintenance teams in Scotrail seem quite good at keeping things going, I travel weekly on HML and have done for a number of years. Not many days it goes wrong due to breakdowns. Now weather is an issue, I am assuming the HST will have more a chance in winter weather on HML? Been stuck a few times at Dalwhinnie in moderate snow.

 

[47271]

In my experience reliability of Scotrail 170s and 158s on the HML is good enough that it's notable if you experience disruption or inconvenience due to a train fault - in my case it's maybe something like 1/30 journeys.

The problem is that if it drops to something like 1/15 - probably about where the even more ancient Caledonian Sleeper mk2s sit at from what I can see - then regular passengers start to notice and a reputation for knackered old trains is born.

Given the level of scrutiny on this project and its need to make a positive mark then I'd say that anything below Turbostar reliability won't be acceptable. No pressure...

 

[Highland37]

I'd agree with the above. Reliability of the 170s and 158s is good. Too good, I'd prefer the entire 158 fleet to all go on fire the same day so that they could be scrapped. But that's just me.

Bring on the HSTs (in absence of normal practice which is to electrify and have better units).

 

[Paul Kerr]

I know, it was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the fact that some people hold that it's impossible to hear anything in a DMU.

Haha less of a roar, more like an incessant drone and I suppose if you have back or muscle pain the vibration might help in that department so there's always a bright side to having engines under the floor

 

[GusB]

Are the HSTs doing training runs on the Inverness - Aberdeen line today? Something just whizzed past the house and although I couldn't quite make out what it was (flippin' trees!) it most certainly didn't sound like the usual 158/170. Realtime Trains shows it as 5Z29, and there's a return from Keith at 1545 as 5Z54.

 

[Northhighland]

Is Dyce to Aberdeen open?

 

[mullac30]

Is Dyce to Aberdeen open?

Yes .

 

[Bungle965]

Yes.
Sam

 

[jingsmonty]

Are the HSTs doing training runs on the Inverness - Aberdeen line today? Something just whizzed past the house and although I couldn't quite make out what it was (flippin' trees!) it most certainly didn't sound like the usual 158/170. Realtime Trains shows it as 5Z29, and there's a return from Keith at 1545 as 5Z54.

Pass! I know there's engineering work going on over the weekend, assuming it's this weekend? Don't think the HST has any runs planned going East - the paths are all Perth & return..you never know, though...

 

[jingsmonty]

In my experience reliability of Scotrail 170s and 158s on the HML is good enough that it's notable if you experience disruption or inconvenience due to a train fault - in my case it's maybe something like 1/30 journeys.

The problem is that if it drops to something like 1/15 - probably about where the even more ancient Caledonian Sleeper mk2s sit at from what I can see - then regular passengers start to notice and a reputation for knackered old trains is born.

Given the level of scrutiny on this project and its need to make a positive mark then I'd say that anything below Turbostar reliability won't be acceptable. No pressure...

Very good point - I know the maintenance teams are learning the ins & outs of the HST on the training train.

Think once the refurbished set starts running between Edinburgh & Aberdeen, this will give a good guide to how reliable they will be. Running them in gently (to existing timings) seems like a sensible idea - remember, a lot of the Drivers have had limited time actually driving them & they are very different to drice than a 170/158...we need bedding in too, not just the teains themselves!

 

[GusB]

Pass! I know there's engineering work going on over the weekend, assuming it's this weekend? Don't think the HST has any runs planned going East - the paths are all Perth & return..you never know, though...

According to National Rail Enquiries it's bustitution between Keith and Inverurie, so it would appear so. I'll have a wee wander later on and see for myself.

 

[Wst71Pa2]

Dyce is open, North of Inverurie shut due to engineering works, think the HST training runs are on a W headcode

 

[Mordac]

It's not as loud on Voyagers, but you can hear it well enough and nothing makes a racket like an idling Voyager.

Indeed, I remember when I lived in Edinburgh and was walking down to Waverley, and I could hear it idling at the top of Fleshmarket Close.

 

[Highlandspring]

Are the HSTs doing training runs on the Inverness - Aberdeen line today? Something just whizzed past the house and although I couldn't quite make out what it was (flippin' trees!) it most certainly didn't sound like the usual 158/170. Realtime Trains shows it as 5Z29, and there's a return from Keith at 1545 as 5Z54.

5Z29 was 158719 which went on to work 1H29 1108 Keith - Inverness; 5Z54 was 170405 which came off 1A54 1427 Inverness - Keith.

 

[GusB]

5Z29 was 158719 which went on to work 1H29 1108 Keith - Inverness; 5Z54 was 170405 which came off 1A54 1427 Inverness - Keith.

Thanks - I was rather disappointed. On the outward ECS move, I could have sworn it didn't sound like one of the regular MUs. When I saw on RTT that 5Z54 had departed 7 early, it was rather a brisk walk from one end of town to the other, only to find out it was a 170! Oh well, hopefully a few pounds have been shed in the process

 

[jingsmonty]

Dyce is open, North of Inverurie shut due to engineering works, think the HST training runs are on a W headcode

They have been running on 'W' headcodes - think the Inverness training train will be running during September - the driver training is on hold right now, as the trainers are training the train crews on the fully refurbished set just now.

 

[Bikeman78]

It's not for that purpose, though. It only exists (unlike the doors closing alarm which is nowhere near as piercing) to indicate to people with visual disabilities that the doors have been released.

The S stock and the 387s manage without being annoyingly loud and presumably comply with the rules. So why the need for other trains to be much louder?