ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Bletchleyite]

Thing is, the good thing about HSTs are the sheer performance of the short sets, I'd doubt there would be many new DMUs or Bimode trains that could match the performance of a short set. There is also the problem that there is a lack of new-build intercity spec DMUs.

Er...

Stadler bimode
Class 800/801
The new Bombardier product
I'm sure CAF could do an end doored version of the WCML EMUs, or 68+Mk5.

Mind you, maybe it (like putting 230s on things) wasn't a bad move. The factories are busy at the minute. A few years down the line when they're not the prices might drop...

 

[GrimShady]

The main issue is that they're too short. If they could acquire enough to run them all as 6-car formations they'd be just fine.

Agreed

 

[GrimShady]

There is also the problem that there is a lack of new-build intercity spec DMUs.

I can't think of a really good IC spec DMU ever in service to be honest. 158s were a step down from the ScotRail Express MK3 trains and again too short.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't think of a really good IC spec DMU ever in service to be honest. 158s were a step down from the ScotRail Express MK3 trains and again too short.

If they'd done the 158s with 8 bodyside windows rather than 9 and seats spaced accordingly (as built there is 100% window alignment), and if they would fit a new aircon system, they'd be near perfect. Even so the ScotRail refurb using Grammer IC3000s does a very good job of them.

But yes, BR costcutting made them too short and there not enough of them.

 

[GrimShady]

If they'd done the 158s with 8 bodyside windows rather than 9 and seats spaced accordingly (as built there is 100% window alignment), and if they would fit a new aircon system, they'd be near perfect. Even so the ScotRail refurb using Grammer IC3000s does a very good job of them.

But yes, BR costcutting made them too short and there not enough of them.

True but they still suffer from engine vibration and noise which is the nature of DMUs. Shove Duff's still out performed them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

True but they still suffer from engine vibration and noise which is the nature of DMUs. Shove Duff's still out performed them.

I dunno, I always found the lethargic engine whine in a Class 158 quite relaxing and good at drowning out background noises like people playing films out loud on tablets. But each to their own.

 

[mullac30]

Er...

Stadler bimode
Class 800/801
The new Bombardier product
I'm sure CAF could do an end doored version of the WCML EMUs, or 68+Mk5.

Mind you, maybe it (like putting 230s on things) wasn't a bad move. The factories are busy at the minute. A few years down the line when they're not the prices might drop...

I'd argue that it is too early in terms electrification to justify bimode stock - it would be best to wait until wires reach Perth which might be a fair few years.

 

[najaB]

It’s very strange you say that because I asked ‘ someone’ intimately involved in the project right back at the start when I had some very minor involvement how they picked which powercars were coming. The reply was that FGW had asked ScotRail if they had any particular preference for which of the powercars due to come off lease they wanted and were effectively told “no it’s ok, you pick for us”.

I had heard the first part of that story - that they were given the opportunity to choose - but not the latter. I bow to your superior knowledge.

 

[Highlandspring]

I dunno, I always found the lethargic engine whine in a Class 158 quite relaxing and good at drowning out background noises like people playing films out loud on tablets. But each to their own.

A surprising amount of the saloon noise on 158s and 170s comes from the ventilation/air conditioning. This is most apparent if you ever board a 170 which has been shut down but still has the air conditioning running - before the engines start the air con drops out for a few seconds and there’s a sudden silence. I also quite like the 158 whine.

 

[Journeyman]

Er...

Stadler bimode
Class 800/801
The new Bombardier product
I'm sure CAF could do an end doored version of the WCML EMUs, or 68+Mk5.

Mind you, maybe it (like putting 230s on things) wasn't a bad move. The factories are busy at the minute. A few years down the line when they're not the prices might drop...

Yup, CAF are able to offer a diesel version of the end-doored EMUs they're building for TPE, and that, among many other things, would have been perfect.

In terms of cost, leasing new trains is incredibly cheap at the moment, which is why leasing 40-year-old stock over new is utter madness. New stuff is such good value for money that First decided to ditch the 707s before most of them had even turned a wheel.

 

[GrimShady]

Yup, CAF are able to offer a diesel version of the end-doored EMUs they're building for TPE, and that, among many other things, would have been perfect.

Any drawings of such a vehicle?

 

[GrimShady]

What sort of time period are we looking at before the Hosts are running from Queen Street in decent numbers?

 

[gingertom]

What sort of time period are we looking at before the Hosts are running from Queen Street in decent numbers?

autocorrect not liking HSTs?
IIRC the 4-car set were to go into service Edinburgh/Aberdeen, which would be replaced with the 5-car sets as they become available, then Edinburgh/Inverness with more 4 car sets. Once the 5-car sets start to arrive they take over the Edinburgh/Aberdeen with the 4s doing Glasgow/Aberdeen initially then Inverness once the whole batch was available- a gradual phased change adding capacity.
Edin/Aberdeen should have started by now but we are still waiting the first unit, with that service 100% HST by Dec timetable change. I think that timescale has been well and truly missed.

 

[Bikeman78]

If they'd done the 158s with 8 bodyside windows rather than 9 and seats spaced accordingly (as built there is 100% window alignment), and if they would fit a new aircon system, they'd be near perfect. Even so the ScotRail refurb using Grammer IC3000s does a very good job of them.

But yes, BR costcutting made them too short and there not enough of them.

I remember the 158s brand new; they were pretty good. Most of the interior refurbs are good but the lousy air con and poor reliabilty let them down. Just look at the tables in Modern Railways. 6000 miles between faults is poor for a train that does 600-700 miles per day.

 

[gingertom]

autocorrect not liking HSTs?
IIRC the 4-car set were to go into service Edinburgh/Aberdeen, which would be replaced with the 5-car sets as they become available, then Edinburgh/Inverness with more 4 car sets. Once the 5-car sets start to arrive they take over the Edinburgh/Aberdeen with the 4s doing Glasgow/Aberdeen initially then Inverness once the whole batch was available- a gradual phased change adding capacity.
Edin/Aberdeen should have started by now but we are still waiting the first unit, with that service 100% HST by Dec timetable change. I think that timescale has been well and truly missed.

there was an article in Rail about the introduction plan a few months back.

 

[InOban]

I remember the 158s brand new; they were pretty good. Most of the interior refurbs are good but the lousy air con and poor reliabilty let them down. Just look at the tables in Modern Railways. 6000 miles between faults is poor for a train that does 600-700 miles per day.

What is astonishing is that virtually the same trains based in Salisbury, are the most reliable dmus in the same MR tables.

 

[superkev]

What is astonishing is that virtually the same trains based in Salisbury, are the most reliable dmus in the same MR tables.

Salisbury maintain there trains. Presumably the others do not.
K

 

[Mingulay]

If they'd done the 158s with 8 bodyside windows rather than 9 and seats spaced accordingly (as built there is 100% window alignment), and if they would fit a new aircon system, they'd be near perfect. Even so the ScotRail refurb using Grammer IC3000s does a very good job of them.

But yes, BR costcutting made them too short and there not enough of them.

I think the 158 is the poorest design I travel on. The refurb on first sight looks good but the new big seats render the legroom to unacceptably little . They are always hot. If they had only refurbished like 156 they would be better. Just gone into GLASGOW in an unrefurbished 156. And returning in a refurbished 158. The former far better than the latter. More room airy and cooler ! Missed opportunity to improve the 158 given wrong seats. Take out tables fit an air con that works.

 

[GrimShady]

autocorrect not liking HSTs?
IIRC the 4-car set were to go into service Edinburgh/Aberdeen, which would be replaced with the 5-car sets as they become available, then Edinburgh/Inverness with more 4 car sets. Once the 5-car sets start to arrive they take over the Edinburgh/Aberdeen with the 4s doing Glasgow/Aberdeen initially then Inverness once the whole batch was available- a gradual phased change adding capacity.
Edin/Aberdeen should have started by now but we are still waiting the first unit, with that service 100% HST by Dec timetable change. I think that timescale has been well and truly missed.

Cheers for the information.

And yeah I must turn off autocorrect. ☺️

 

[InOban]

Salisbury maintain there trains. Presumably the others do not.
K

I've been told that there are several factors behind Salisbury's success. The trains operate a single route which goes past the depot, so any unit which is slightly sick can be swapped out or sorted as it passes, before it fails. The engineering team are largely ex-army. Etc. They may well have replaced the unreliable components with quality ones. But it does mean that these trains are not inherently unreliable.

 

[gingertom]

Cheers for the information.

And yeah I must turn off autocorrect. ☺️

trying to locate the article but not having much success. The first 4 cars should have been in service May18. I'd assume the significant project milestones would be the timetable changes in Dec, next May and next Dec. How long has it taken Wabtec to do 16 doors and an interior tart-up? Only 400 more doors to go. I think we need a plan B.

 

[GrimShady]

The whole change over to new stock in ScotRail of late has been a disaster. I can't remember this many issues in years gone by of new generation trains. The coming of 158s was a disaster too, how I hated getting on a "Scud" back then.

 

[gingertom]

The whole change over to new stock in ScotRail of late has been a disaster. I can't remember this many issues in years gone by of new generation trains. The coming of 158s was a disaster too, how I hated getting on a "Scud" back then.

the 158s on the E&G were certainly quicker once they settled down. I recall there were significant signalling issues that caused the entire fleet to be temporarily withdrawn until they were fixed. Overcrowding commonplace on rammed 156s with no aircon. I remember it well.

 

[BRX]

they're hugely fuel-inefficient and expensive to run in short formations,

Are you able to put any numbers to that?

 

[Bikeman78]

I think the 158 is the poorest design I travel on. The refurb on first sight looks good but the new big seats render the legroom to unacceptably little . They are always hot. If they had only refurbished like 156 they would be better. Just gone into GLASGOW in an unrefurbished 156. And returning in a refurbished 158. The former far better than the latter. More room airy and cooler ! Missed opportunity to improve the 158 given wrong seats. Take out tables fit an air con that works.

Last year I went on a Scotrail 158. There was a label right next to the emergency window (which was open) which said something like "for your comfort this train has been fitted with improved air conditioning." Someone clearly has a sense of humour!

 

[GrimShady]

the 158s on the E&G were certainly quicker once they settled down. I recall there were significant signalling issues that caused the entire fleet to be temporarily withdrawn until they were fixed. Overcrowding commonplace on rammed 156s with no aircon. I remember it well.

150s were even diagrammed on the E&G along with the 156, bad days. How I missed the shove duff formations when they were gone!

 

[Paul Kerr]

Yes, I still think it'll be an improvement, but only a marginal one. The 170s are not fundamentally bad trains.

Sorry but yes they are. The incessant drone and vibration from those Cummins engines is enough to drive me to distraction every time I travel on them. In the sense of them being cheap to run, you have a point- they're decent from that standpoint, but compared to HSTs they are slow, cramped and thoroughly uncomfortable and fundamentally unsuited to Inter City rail travel. I do prefer loco hauled over multiple units so maybe you could accuse me of being biased, but it's nothing to do with "hellfire thrash"- a loco hauled saloon is superior. Yes a multiple unit is cheaper and you could argue it's a better use of taxpayer's money, but you cannot deny that a multiple unit based solution always is a compromise. Having an engine under the floor invariably results in more noise regardless of the amount of dampening undertaken and as components such as bearings and crank shafts start to wear you will always get more vibration with time. That's a fact. In a few years it's almost certain that the noise and vibration issues will rear their ugly heads with the bi-mode units being introduced on so much of the network. HSTs are not perfect but they are a considerable step up on 170's. The 170 is a good commuter unit but an intercity design it most certainly is not.

 

[Paul Kerr]

Opinion amongst many in the rail industry is that Abellio were fools for deciding to do this.

The refurbs have been fraught with difficulty, they're hugely fuel-inefficient and expensive to run in short formations, and, as has been pointed out many times, the bodies closely resemble Swiss cheese. Rumour has it that the person responsible for pushing the HST option within Abellio is an HST enthusiast who has allowed heart to rule head, and it's turned out, in my opinion, to be a very bad decision.

Even if the person responsible for pushing this option was an HST enthusiast, in my mind that's irrelevant. They have given sterling service for 40 years and they are head and shoulders above their successors. Today's trains are designed with cost as their primary consideration. Sorry, but the 170's are a joke, as are their predecessors the 158's. I've heard them described as garden shed engineering. Voyagers are not much better; they are pretty much glorified class 170's. Their performance is good and after a very poor start their reliability is better now, I accept, but the seating capacity on a Voyager isn't really that much more than a 170. Also, their body design makes the saloon cramped and uncomfortable, and they are simply do not have enough capacity for a long distance inter city service. No wonder HSTs were reintroduced when Virgin lost the Cross Country franchise.

Also please help me understand how a short formation HST is "hugely fuel-inefficient". How can that be? If the power cars are transporting less mass (132 tonnes less on a 4 car unit and 99 tonnes less on a 5 car unit), they are going to use less fuel as the engines are under less load than if they were conveying 8 coaches, are they not? Or are you describing fuel consumption per passenger? What figures are you using and where did you get them from? In any case, as the vehicles are older they are leased at a lower cost so this would largely offset any increase in fuel costs, would it not?

 

[najaB]

In any case, as the vehicles are older they are leased at a lower cost so this would largely offset any increase in fuel costs, would it not?

That rather depends on the price of fuel.

 

[superkev]

The much better travel experience over a knees under you chin noisy dmu may attract enough extra passengers to pay for any increased operating costs.
Incidentally I seem to remember a scheme of a few years ago to use one power car, 4 coaches one with a cab.
K