ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[fgwrich]

Hopelessly low res.

Try this link instead:-

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dh_EEIiW4AULoGd.jpg:orig

Looking at this picture closely, I can spot 7 ScotRail Mk3s in it. So I’m wondering if ScotRail is waiting on the completion of at least another one, giving them 2 x 4 coach sets for testing and service?

 

[DuncanS]

[pedant] The Open has never been at Gleneagles, that was the Ryder Cup in 2014. [/pedant]

 

[najaB]

Potentially could be using them for extra trains during the open.

Given that the Open is at Carnoustie, one would have thought the priority would be services to/from Dundee.

 

[superkev]

Forgive me if this has been asked before. Is there anywhere north of Glasgow Edinburgh where they can exceed 90mph or even reach 125?
Thanks
K

 

[gsnedders]

Forgive me if this has been asked before. Is there anywhere north of Glasgow Edinburgh where they can exceed 90mph or even reach 125?
Thanks
K

Max 100mph in various places.

 

[najaB]

Max 100mph in various places.

And quite a few places where the limit could be increased to 110-115 if they felt the need for speed.

 

[gingertom]

Max 100mph in various places.

class 170s lack power and struggle on the southbound climb out of Inverness to Slochd summit and don't get anywhere near the linespeed. HSTs, especially our short-formed 2+4s, will have no difficulty with the ascent.

 

[superkev]

And quite a few places where the limit could be increased to 110-115 if they felt the need for speed.

Let's hope they do it. Bits of 125 running would have good publicity value.
K

 

[gingertom]

Let's hope they do it. Bits of 125 running would have good publicity value.
K

some decent stretches between Dalwhinnie and Kingussie where they could be opened up.

 

[Wst71Pa2]

100, Fourdon thru Laurencekirk, Elliot-Monifeith, Broughty Ferry-Harecraig. More about the acceleration on gradients tho'

 

[43096]

There is of course another contractor just across the rail line who could also do the HST work given a chance. Not to mention Springburn.

Time ScotRail got a hold of this contract and gave Wabtec an ultimatum. Either deliver or lose to contract to somebody who can deliver.

No doubt there is penalty clauses in the contract but that doesn't help passengers get their refurbished coaches. Of course penalty clauses could also hire in some coaches and locos to fill the shortfall.

The door design has been developed by Wabtec. What do you think would happen if the contract was now handed over to someone else?

Second, cancelling with Wabtec now would create more delay as, even if you could solve the contractual issues, a new supplier would have to set up a production line and learn the same lessons as Doncaster have.

 

[jopsuk]

The door design has been developed by Wabtec. What do you think would happen if the contract was now handed over to someone else?

Second, cancelling with Wabtec now would create more delay as, even if you could solve the contractual issues, a new supplier would have to set up a production line and learn the same lessons as Doncaster have.

however if an alternative contractor DID have a design ready and could promise to deliver faster then the time and money already taken up could be written off as a sunk cost.

It's always a difficult point in business knowing when "well we've spent all this money now" is a bad reasoning for continuing.

 

[Northhighland]

The door design has been developed by Wabtec. What do you think would happen if the contract was now handed over to someone else?

Second, cancelling with Wabtec now would create more delay as, even if you could solve the contractual issues, a new supplier would have to set up a production line and learn the same lessons as Doncaster have.

If the contract was set up with correct penalties for late delivery then Wabtec should be looking for people to sub the work out to.

We should be looking at getting contractors with suitably skilled labour to assist Wabtec

What will happen when the next two batches of 170’s head south? Must start to cause problems with the rest of Scotland not just EG service. At the current rate of production we will be lucky to have 4 sets in use by Xmas. Full delivery must be looking doubtful much before late 2020 at best.

Remember not just ScotRail waiting GWR and others wanting the same thing done.

Seems to be a planning mess here. Surely there must be another contractor that could assist Wabtec with labour?

 

[Highlandspring]

We had the first ScotRail HST failure in traffic tonight when 43127 developed an air leak on 3H04 Perth to Eastfield. It stood between Forteviot and Whitemoss from 2010 to 2300 while fitters worked on isolating the leak and patched it up to return to Perth.

 

[Rail Blues]

however if an alternative contractor DID have a design ready and could promise to deliver faster then the time and money already taken up could be written off as a sunk cost.

All well and good, but do you know of any other contractors who do have an alternative design that has been tested and is ready to install in mk3s at the drop of a hat? Seems unlikely to me.

Even if there was this mythical company, there's no guarantee they wouldn't run into the same problems as Wabtec and delivery would be delayed even further.

Also there would be two separate door systems which would add another layer of complications with spares and repairs, unless you propose the Wabtec carriages are similarly refitted which seems a terrific waste.

Also seems very unlikely that Scotrail will 'just' write off a significant amount of money.

Seems like a case of magical thinking.

Surely there must be another contractor that could assist Wabtec with labour?

Depends if the skills shortage is specific to Wabtec or the industry in general. Off the top of my head I can't think of any company with a suitably trained workforce sitting around twiddling their thumbs who could pick up this work at a moment's notice.

 

[Northhighland]

All well and good, but do you know of any other contractors who do have an alternative design that has been tested and is ready to install in mk3s at the drop of a hat? Seems unlikely to me.

Even if there was this mythical company, there's no guarantee they wouldn't run into the same problems as Wabtec and delivery would be delayed even further.

Also there would be two separate door systems which would add another layer of complications with spares and repairs, unless you propose the Wabtec carriages are similarly refitted which seems a terrific waste.

Also seems very unlikely that Scotrail will 'just' write off a significant amount of money.

Seems like a case of magical thinking.



Depends if the skills shortage is specific to Wabtec or the industry in general. Off the top of my head I can't think of any company with a suitably trained workforce sitting around twiddling their thumbs who could pick up this work at a moment's notice.

My point here is why cant Wabtec take on a sub contractor to work with them? simply put if the have squad working unpairs you add one sub contractor to one Wabtec experienced person and you double the work force and increase production. Not believing over the Uk there is not contract labour available.

 

[43096]

My point here is why cant Wabtec take on a sub contractor to work with them? simply put if the have squad working unpairs you add one sub contractor to one Wabtec experienced person and you double the work force and increase production. Not believing over the Uk there is not contract labour available.

And you don’t think Wabtec have thought of ways of getting the work done faster? It’s not in their interests for it to be delayed.

 

[Rail Blues]

Not believing over the Uk there is not contract labour available.

Suitably trained subcontractors who are available in sufficient numbers that they'll speed up production?

 

[dmkc]

Following on from the Glasgow test set sitting down last night, do I recall correctly that the recovery plan for HSTs is to grab the nearest freight loco for assistance? Be interesting to see how that plays out I think, given a burst 170/158 can usually be nudged out of the way by a following service or what not

 

[Highlandspring]

Last night they hired the LNER Edinburgh thunderbird and a driver but as it was the nature of the fault meant the leak had to be fixed on site, the train couldn't be assisted so it wasn't needed

The plan was always that ScotRail wouldn't be hiring a standby loco but I had heard a few months ago that decision might be revisited. Network Rail can only commandeer the nearest suitable loco to clear the line. At the start of the incident last night there was talk of using the Dundee HST driver training set to recover it, which would have been quite entertaining had it gone ahead. I wouldn't be surprised to see the FGW solution of back to back powercars being used to recover a failure at some point in the future.

 

[dmkc]

Last night they hired the LNER Edinburgh thunderbird and a driver but as it was the nature of the fault meant the leak had to be fixed on site, the train couldn't be assisted so it wasn't needed

The plan was always that ScotRail wouldn't be hiring a standby loco but I had heard a few months ago that decision might be revisited. Network Rail can only commandeer the nearest suitable loco to clear the line. At the start of the incident last night there was talk of using the Dundee HST driver training set to recover it, which would have been quite entertaining had it gone ahead. I wouldn't be surprised to see the FGW solution of back to back powercars being used to recover a failure at some point in the future.

Ah indeed I remember seeing pictures of that down south, and also for the sleeper down there. Quite the effort.

It does seem a bit optimistic to have no ready means of recovery (both immediate and back to depot) available. Things can be sorted given time but may lead to lines being blocked for longer possibly?

Mind you going to be plenty Power cars spare in the early days I guess until the refurb stock deliveries get underway

 

[Northhighland]

Suitably trained subcontractors who are available in sufficient numbers that they'll speed up production?

Suitable skilled tradesmen that could work with existing Wabtec staff.

 

[Northhighland]

And you don’t think Wabtec have thought of ways of getting the work done faster? It’s not in their interests for it to be delayed.

Well that depends on the contract. If there are no penalties then maybe they want to make it last longer. Maybe leasing company have restrictions on who can do the work. I don’t know but seems to be relatively straight forward fabrication work that it would appear others could help with.

Seems strange that the programme is slipping and slipping badly.

 

[385001]

Found this on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/ardler67/status/1019539725495959553

Gary Straiton‏ @ardler67
ScotRail Mk 3 at Wabtec. Picture by Christian Tait. #scotrail #intercity #inter7city #scotrailhst
12:09pm · 18 Jul 2018

 

[dmkc]

Looks very decent to be fair. Sooner they are up the road the better

 

[Bletchleyite]

INTERCITY returns!

Those door buttons look very low down. Doesn't seem sensible to do that given that a wheelchair user cannot board without assistance, so having them at a height that looks like a taller elderly person will have to bend down does not make sense to me.

 

[Rail Blues]

Suitable skilled tradesmen that could work with existing Wabtec staff.

So you mean like the qualified fitters and fabricators they are advertising for already? I really think you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think there are enough suitably qualified staff available for hire at a moment 's notice especially as train construction is going through a bit of a boom at the moment.

 

[najaB]

Those door buttons look very low down. Doesn't seem sensible to do that given that a wheelchair user cannot board without assistance, so having them at a height that looks like a taller elderly person will have to bend down does not make sense to me.

They aren't that low down - don't forget it's quite a step up to the door sill on a HST.

 

[Northhighland]

So you mean like the qualified fitters and fabricators they are advertising for already? I really think you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think there are enough suitably qualified staff available for hire at a moment 's notice especially as train construction is going through a bit of a boom at the moment.

Well other places can do it. My cousin is a fabricator. He got a phone call asking if he was interested in a 8 week oil and gas job, he was and starts Monday. They got 74 guys a mix of fabricators welders abd fitters mainly within a week.

That is what he does short term jobs longest being about 2 years. If it works in oil and gas can’t see why couldn’t work with Wabtec.

 

[Northhighland]

Found this on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/ardler67/status/1019539725495959553

Gary Straiton‏ @ardler67
ScotRail Mk 3 at Wabtec. Picture by Christian Tait. #scotrail #intercity #inter7city #scotrailhst
12:09pm · 18 Jul 2018

Looks good. Very nice livery. Is it ready for delivery?