ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[jopsuk]

my understanding was that bike provision will be both in the power cars and awkward to use, cramped, suitable only for lightweight road bikes cupboards where there used to be loos in some of the carriages? Forgetting of course that many people who want to take bikes by train may have heavier touring bikes, and/or hybrids and mountain bikes with 50cm+ wide handlebars- indeed, MTB handlebars are commonly 70-80cm across.

 

[brel york]

Spot on. The best example is a cardboard kitchen roll tube.

Press it at each end and nothing happens. Put a small hole in the middle and it will fold at the point the hole was made.

I have said for years that the central partitions that were removed from the GW Mk3 should have never been taken out.

They were made of steel for a reason.

My understanding was that they were part of the structure , surprised they took them out

 

[route:oxford]

my understanding was that bike provision will be both in the power cars and awkward to use, cramped, suitable only for lightweight road bikes cupboards where there used to be loos in some of the carriages? Forgetting of course that many people who want to take bikes by train may have heavier touring bikes, and/or hybrids and mountain bikes with 50cm+ wide handlebars- indeed, MTB handlebars are commonly 70-80cm across.

Does it really matter how wide handlebars are? Quick twist of an alan key and they can be turned parallel to the body.

 

[BRX]

Try fiddling around with an allan key when you've got other bikes and impatient passengers all around you and 30 seconds before the doors close.

 

[najaB]

Try fiddling around with an allan key when you've got other bikes and impatient passengers all around you and 30 seconds before the doors close.

Then turn the handlebars while you're waiting for the train.

 

[delt1c]

Try fiddling around with an allan key when you've got other bikes and impatient passengers all around you and 30 seconds before the doors close.

what is the matter ? people complain when there is limited bike space then still complain when a TOC provides aditionql space.
what solution do you proposee? As has been mention it is a simple task to prepare the handle ars in advance

 

[Waverleystu]

when is the first set due in service??

 

[Clansman]

when is the first set due in service??

This coming May initially between Edinburgh and Aberdeen.

 

[Altnabreac]

my understanding was that bike provision will be both in the power cars and awkward to use, cramped, suitable only for lightweight road bikes cupboards where there used to be loos in some of the carriages? Forgetting of course that many people who want to take bikes by train may have heavier touring bikes, and/or hybrids and mountain bikes with 50cm+ wide handlebars- indeed, MTB handlebars are commonly 70-80cm across.

I think the Tactran data being discussed on the other thread show what a large percentage of demand is for only a few stations:
http://www.tactran.gov.uk/documents/4GSSPHMLProjectandTimetableDev.pdf

Allowing additional use of the Power Car bike spaces for Perth, Dundee, Stirling, Aviemore and Pitlochry would deal with over 90% of journeys and let the 2 in coach spaces deal with all the minor stations cyclists.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

http://www.tactran.gov.uk/documents/4GSSPHMLProjectandTimetableDev.pdf

That’s so unfair! Scotland get our gorgeous first class interiors and we have to make do with hard back aching iet first class seats!

 

[Clansman]

That’s so unfair! Scotland get our gorgeous first class interiors and we have to make do with hard back aching iet first class seats!

At least the IETs are safer.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

At least the IETs are safer.

Yeah....

 

[najaB]

Yeah....

You don't sound convinced.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

You don't sound convinced.

I just wish they’d make them more comfortable. I mean come on, surely the people who designed these trains aren’t so empty headed as to think the seats are actually nice to sit on!

 

[DanNCL]

I just wish they’d make them more comfortable. I mean come on, surely the people who designed these trains aren’t so empty headed as to think the seats are actually nice to sit on!

Maybe that was the idea; make standard so uncomfortable that people would pay more and upgrade to first

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Maybe that was the idea; make standard so uncomfortable that people would pay more and upgrade to first

First class isn’t great either!

EDIT: Anyway if that was their idea they wouldn’t only have two coaches per ten cars (4 half coaches).

 

[DanNCL]

First class isn’t great either!

EDIT: Anyway if that was their idea they wouldn’t only have two coaches per ten cars (4 half coaches).

This is the DFT we're talking about here; they aren't exactly known for thinking things through properly!

 

[najaB]

I just wish they’d make them more comfortable.

At least they aren't deathtraps.

 

[AndrewE]

I think the Tactran data being discussed on the other thread show what a large percentage of demand is for only a few stations:

Isn't that going to be a fact of life in most networks? Probably applies to any network too, like gas or water. There might be some, like maybe an even-density evenly-served conurbation where it's not, but most will have less heavily used lines or stations.
It only matters when you forget (or abandon) a remit to serve everyone as well as possible within a budget and move to cost-cutting mode - which can end up with the service being unusable apart from serving one select group.

 

[BRX]

what is the matter ? people complain when there is limited bike space then still complain when a TOC provides aditionql space.
what solution do you proposee? As has been mention it is a simple task to prepare the handle ars in advance

There's not an easy solution - obviously there's going to be a conflict between bike capacity and seating capacity. The arrangements that seem to me to work best, other than having guards van/dvt etc, are what you see on the continent quite a bit - a generous all-purpose area where bikes can go but with fold down seats.
Where there's limited capacity in the system then obviously people who want to travel with bikes have to accept that there are limitations.
I just don't think, for practical reasons, that rotating handlebars is a workable solution. You'd need people to remember to show up with the right sized allan key, you'd need to have people check begore travelling that their headset wasn't seized up with rust as is often the case. And once you've rotated handlebars, bikes become a bit awkward to maneuver. It's regularly the case that you are ready with your bike but there's no indication of where the bike compartment will be, and/or when the train arrives one compartment is full of bags or prams and you then have to leg it down the platform to find another one. That would be very difficult with rotated handlebars. It's already a bit of a gamble as to whether you should have panniers off - if they are off it's easier to lift the bike in and maneuver it inside the train, but then you have to stick them on again if the abovementioned race down the platform is necessary. I doubt you'd find that most people who know what it's like travelling with bikes would be very enthusiastic about the idea of having an added operation to worry about.

 

[Highland37]

what is the matter ? people complain when there is limited bike space then still complain when a TOC provides aditionql space.
what solution do you proposee? As has been mention it is a simple task to prepare the handle ars in advance

Naive in the extreme. No where else in Europe requires you to do this and it also ignores the commuter pattern of cycling. For example, I live in Inverness but work near Aviemore and don't carry a bike tool most of the time as I have other stuff to carry. I also don't need it as my bike is well maintained.

So if I have to now carry tools to fit the Scotrail system (thankfully they haven't adopted such a ludicrous idea yet), then I am then not only paying more than it costs me to drive and I have to carry extra tools for a system that should work in the first place.

For the record, if you could reference a few complaints from people saying Scotrail have too many bike spaces, I would be happy to look at them. I have been using Scotrail my whole life and not once have I heard such a complaint.

 

[Highland37]

There's not an easy solution - obviously there's going to be a conflict between bike capacity and seating capacity. The arrangements that seem to me to work best, other than having guards van/dvt etc, are what you see on the continent quite a bit - a generous all-purpose area where bikes can go but with fold down seats.
Where there's limited capacity in the system then obviously people who want to travel with bikes have to accept that there are limitations.
I just don't think, for practical reasons, that rotating handlebars is a workable solution. You'd need people to remember to show up with the right sized allan key, you'd need to have people check begore travelling that their headset wasn't seized up with rust as is often the case. And once you've rotated handlebars, bikes become a bit awkward to maneuver. It's regularly the case that you are ready with your bike but there's no indication of where the bike compartment will be, and/or when the train arrives one compartment is full of bags or prams and you then have to leg it down the platform to find another one. That would be very difficult with rotated handlebars. It's already a bit of a gamble as to whether you should have panniers off - if they are off it's easier to lift the bike in and maneuver it inside the train, but then you have to stick them on again if the abovementioned race down the platform is necessary. I doubt you'd find that most people who know what it's like travelling with bikes would be very enthusiastic about the idea of having an added operation to worry about.

Why not just put them in the powercars with intermediate bikes going in the coaches?

 

[BRX]

Why not just put them in the powercars with intermediate bikes going in the coaches?

I agree, that seems like the most obvious solution for the Scotrail HSTs.

 

[BRX]

the commuter pattern of cycling.

It's difficult to make it work for commuters to take bikes on trains, at least anywhere where there's any level of overcrowding anyway.

Most of my recent experience is in south east england (although I'm from Inverness area originally) where there's a ban on non-folding cycles at peak time for any trains in/out of london. It would be chaos if people tried to take bikes on these trains.

The best solution really is to provide generous, reasonably secure bike storage at stations. More stations are now providing this. A lot of people will keep a bike at one end of the journey, so they can combine a rail/cycle commute without having to take the bike on the train. Obviously if you want to do a bike segment at each end of the journey you need two bikes...some people do this though, or use the "boris bikes" rental ones at the london end.

Is Scotrail providing decent bike storage at stations these days?

 

[Highland37]

No, Scotrail are not providing decent storage. The idea you have will not work until the railway addresses the issues which are storage, space on trains and fundamentally, what passengers actually want if they have a bike.

I used to leave a bike in Aviemore but gave up as it was getting rusty as the Scotrail storage area is for 4 (!) and open to the elements and everyone else. In Glasgow it's pretty poor too. Queen Street is a joke right now. Of all the areas that Next Bikes are used (the hire scheme), the railway is by far the worst of all.

 

[BRX]

From what people tell me, people are commuting more by bike these days in Inverness. So they should get on to it.

Here's what's now provided at eg. Woking, a commuter town just outside london. I was quite impressed when I saw it. Covered area, CCTV, decent racks, even somewhere to pump up your tyres.

http://www.cyclepods.co.uk/case-studies/south-west-trains-cycle-hubs/

 

[Highland37]

Undoubtedly true - more people are using bikes instead of cars in Inverness. It's pretty flat, easy climate and the roads are in general, not too bad for cycling. Still 20-30 years behind the rest of Europe but that's normal for the UK.

The cycle pods are excellent. They have two in Beauly where I used to live but there are none in Aviemore or Inverness that I am aware of.

 

[route:oxford]

With the First Minister said to be buying a place in Upper Bridge of Allan, what's the chances that the morning peaks from Perth/Dunblane to Edinburgh will be upgraded to HST operation with full First Class?

 

[Highland37]

There are no connections between the two issues, so chances as they were.

 

[380101]

Is Scotrail providing decent bike storage at stations these days?

Yes. All stations, including unmanned ones, are getting new cycle storage systems - similar to the cycle pods ones which will have a roof over them to keep the worst of the weather off the bikes. Ayr has quite a large capacity one but never seen any bikes on it so far and its been there over a yesr now.