ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[signallerscot]

Although, as we all know, the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data' I had to stand all the way from Inverness to Perth on the 06:45 last year as it was packed. I think it was around the end of August start of September.

 

[Northhighland]

Well, this morning I've nearly completed my journey south from Kingussie to Perth on the 0645 ex Inverness and Coach C has never exceeded more than one fifth full, very spacious and pleasant it is too. A and B didn't look that busy either when they sailed by. The 170 is unrefurbished and threadbare inside, but that's something else entirely.

As far as standing Queen Street to Perth is concerned, that is totally unacceptable, but I suspect your observation also applies to afternoon services. The 1811 Glasgow-Inverness is very popular with commuters but Coach C is generally down to a quarter full after Dunblane.

Anyway, my point was that they just need to mind that they keep the four coach sets off the services that they know to be busting out already. My other point was that they're unlikely to be able to achieve that.

My main point is though that this is a real opportunity to improve use of the railway for travel to Edinburgh and Glasgow from Inverness. It is a once in a generation chance and should not be missed. I find it hard to believe that one extra coach would burst the bank, it could easily pay itself.

Another issue will be that 1st class section will be greatly expanded that could help capacity if it is priced more sensibly. Currently for what you get it is woeful. If scotrail got its act together and offered deals for regular business travel that could help. At current prices I expect it will run mainly empty.

Not holding my breath for Scotrail to get its act together on pricing.

 

[najaB]

I find it hard to believe that one extra coach would burst the bank, it could easily pay itself.

Six carriages is overkill for most services and might mean they'd struggle a bit to deliver the hourly ex-Inverness timetable.

 

[route:oxford]

Well, this morning I've nearly completed my journey south from Kingussie to Perth on the 0645 ex Inverness and Coach C has never exceeded more than one fifth full, very spacious and pleasant it is too. A and B didn't look that busy either when they sailed by. The 170 is unrefurbished and threadbare inside, but that's something else entirely.

The Friday of a Bank Holiday week, when the majority of 6th year students have finished their Highers and school - not exactly the best day in the year to evidence that capacity is adequte.

 

[InOban]

Last Monday was a holiday in Glasgow. Scotland doesn't take a midterm holiday week.

 

[route:oxford]

Last Monday was a holiday in Glasgow. Scotland doesn't take a midterm holiday week.

Which I made clear in my comment.

This is a bank holiday week, ie Monday 29th May was a Bank Holiday throughout the UK. Many individuals take the opportunity to use 4 days holiday to make up a full week holiday.

The major Highers and Advanced Highers finished last week, there were a few dregs left this week - mostly dead languages and other worthless subjects - so most Sixth Year students have finished school for good.

 

[MML]

So what is the cost differential between operating and/or converting 4 coach HST versus a 5 coach HST ?

Surely the flexibility and commonality of a standardised 5 coach HST fleet would avoid the timetabling complexity and improve resilience of a mixed 4 and 5 coach fleet ?

If all HST are 5-car it doesn't matter what diagrams the trains are allocated on a day to day basis.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Exactly. But that involves common sense, a concept alion to scotfail/transport Scotland.

 

[47271]

Before the great debate on the popularity of the 0650 Inverness-Edinburgh goes on any longer, what I forgot to say in my earlier post is that I use this train one or two days a week throughout the year, and not only on Fridays. Today was the first time I was interested enough to write down what I saw.

I've applied to go on Mastermind with my specialist subject as 'Highland Main Line Railway Passenger Services and Loadings Since 1923'. Ask me a question, any question. I've got a particular niche on...

...to be serious and bring us back on topic, all I would say is that if there are HML services better suited to four coach HST operation if Scotrail must, then they are the ones leaving Inverness earlier in the morning than most people want to get up, and arriving Inversnecky later in the evening than most people want to get there. The rest really need to be five.

 

[najaB]

So what is the cost differential between operating and/or converting 4 coach HST versus a 5 coach HST ?

5 is 25% more than 4. So the variable costs will be 25% higher.

 

[cf111]

So what is the cost differential between operating and/or converting 4 coach HST versus a 5 coach HST ?

Surely the flexibility and commonality of a standardised 5 coach HST fleet would avoid the timetabling complexity and improve resilience of a mixed 4 and 5 coach fleet ?

If all HST are 5-car it doesn't matter what diagrams the trains are allocated on a day to day basis.

I agree wholeheartedly but if they're paying per mk3 then it will be cheaper this way.

That said, even the 4-car HSTs will be a vast improvement over the 2-car sprinters which run the majority of the Inverness-Aberdeen services.

 

[gsnedders]

5 is 25% more than 4. So the variable costs will be 25% higher.

I'd have imagined a disproportionate amount of the total cost being the fixed cost of the two power cars, and the variable cost between number of coaches being relatively minor?

That said, I imagine modifying the coaches is expensive, hence that may well be a significant factor too, rather than pure operating costs.

 

[najaB]

I'd have imagined a disproportionate amount of the total cost being the fixed cost of the two power cars, and the variable cost between number of coaches being relatively minor?

That's true, but a lot of minor costs can add up to a major cost over time.

 

[jingsmonty]

So what is the cost differential between operating and/or converting 4 coach HST versus a 5 coach HST ?

Surely the flexibility and commonality of a standardised 5 coach HST fleet would avoid the timetabling complexity and improve resilience of a mixed 4 and 5 coach fleet ?

If all HST are 5-car it doesn't matter what diagrams the trains are allocated on a day to day basis.

I asked that very question at one of the staff roadshows as I didn't see the logic in having a mixed 4/5 car fleet. I didn't get much of an answer, only that it would be 'easy to add coaches if the demand was there'.
Think there are supposed to be, I think, 2 x 6 car sets later on as well?
A standard fleet would have been easier for staff training as well, as a 4 coach hst will have less brakeforce tban a 5 car. That's a big deal for me as a lot of us who will be learning to work then have only ever driven dmu/emu - hst is a different beast altogether!

 

[edwin_m]

That's true, but a lot of minor costs can add up to a major cost over time.

The crew costs will be exactly the same between a 4-car and a 5-car unless they plan to have an extra person on the longer trains (unlikely).

The fuel consumption will go up by no more than the proportionate extra weight, and probably by a lot less. Adding an extra coach to a 4-car HST is a lot less than a 25% weight increase. Similar will apply to track access and the power cars will also dominate maintenance costs.

So in total the operating costs of the 5-car sets will be a bit more than those of the 4-car, but nowhere near 25% more. Leasing costs will include the cost of conversion, which will fall more on the coaches as they aren't doing much to the power cars, so if those are included the difference may be greater.

 

[najaB]

So in total the operating costs of the 5-car sets will be a bit more than those of the 4-car, but nowhere near 25% more.

As a rough guess, I'd say 10-15% more.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Remember that a 2+4 HST is effectively the same length as a coupled pair of 170s, which is about the maximum length of train that most ScotRail (non-sleeper) services have ever seen. IIRC there are initially going to be problems stabling 2+5/2+6 sets at depots that were designed for two and three car DMUs. Platform allocations might also be a challenge, especially at Queen Street where the 8x24m E&G services are taking up a lot of the longer platforms. Running more 2+5 HSTs therefore may depend upon non-committed works like Maryhill electrification or Greenhill Junction grade-separation.

 

[Clansman]

Remember that a 2+4 HST is effectively the same length as a coupled pair of 170s, which is about the maximum length of train that most ScotRail (non-sleeper) services have ever seen. IIRC there are initially going to be problems stabling 2+5/2+6 sets at depots that were designed for two and three car DMUs. Platform allocations might also be a challenge, especially at Queen Street where the 8x24m E&G services are taking up a lot of the longer platforms. Running more 2+5 HSTs therefore may depend upon non-committed works like Maryhill electrification or Greenhill Junction grade-separation.

Part of the capacity issue will be alleviated by having a new purpose built stabling depot at Perth, due to the fact that it stables a good 10-20 DMUs per night thus none of the platforms would cope given the majority of the DMUs arrive from Intercity duties - despite Perth having the longest single numbered platform in Scotland.

Wonder how Scotrail will work around this in the short term though?

 

[Highland37]

Next week I have almost a whole carriage booked out (coach B, 1209 from Glasgow to Inverness on Monday), for a youth group. That's nearly a third of the train. I pity anyone else who have booked a seat in there.

I do this often and every time, with no exceptions, there are arguments and almost no space. 5 coaches to Inverness are definitely required.

 

[Blindtraveler]

You poor sod. Would hiring a bus not be more economical, more cumfortable and less stressful?

 

[BRX]

I don't see why a bus would be more comfortable.

 

[ainsworth74]

For discussion on Highland37s impressive collection of tickets and the options available for large groups when it come to discounts please see this thread in Fares Advice & Policy. I have moved those posts into a new thread to keep this one clear for discussion around the ScotRail HST refurbishment.

Many thanks!

 

[Clansman]

Had the pleasure of travelling on a GWR HST (unrefurbished) yesterday morning on the 07:15 to Cardiff. I was in the split first/standard coach, so I don't know if the leg room or anything is improved in comparison to the rest of standard. But I have to say, as someone who hates the grammar seats, having regularly used them on ScotRail 158s, GWR's HSTs ones feel far more padded, and the pitch felt far better - despite the fact (as far as I'm aware) there are no differences what so ever in comparison to ScotRail's. It could be possible that the greater leg room at table seats might have contributed to this, but I'll be very happy if this continues to be the experience when they eventually come up here.

 

[47271]

GWR Standard on an HST is okay if you're at a table, but they really are very cramped in airline. I can't say that I enjoyed the last trip I made with them, made worse by the fact that they were so massively overcharging for First on a near empty train that I had to poke myself into a Standard airline seat. Occupancy in the coach was me and someone else in airline and the two tables. Nine people in one mk3 coach and I can't say that any of us were comfortable.

If you can afford GWR HST First Class, and it seems that few of us do, then I'd venture that it's probably the most agreeable rail travel experience available in the UK now. So that bodes well for Scotrail HSTs...

 

[Clansman]

GWR Standard on an HST is okay if you're at a table, but they really are very cramped in airline. I can't say that I enjoyed the last trip I made with them, made worse by the fact that they were so massively overcharging for First on a near empty train that I had to poke myself into a Standard airline seat. Occupancy in the coach was me and someone else in airline and the two tables. Nine people in one mk3 coach and I can't say that any of us were comfortable.

If you can afford GWR HST First Class, and it seems that few of us do, then I'd venture that it's probably the most agreeable rail travel experience available in the UK now. So that bodes well for Scotrail HSTs...

Agree with you about their First Class, although it felt as if the tables and legroom were smaller in comparison to VTEC and XC but never the less, their first class hosts and food were great so long may that continue when ScotRail start their HST service.

 

[Highland37]

Has any further information on the numbers of bike spaces been released? Whenever I ask Scotrail direct, they don't answer.

 

[JohnR]

Has any further information on the numbers of bike spaces been released? Whenever I ask Scotrail direct, they don't answer.

Probably because they know the answer wont be popular. Best wait until its too late to change it.

 

[Highland37]

You are more than likely correct. It does make a mockery of their communications though when you realise that they will not engage unless it is to their advantage.

 

[CosherB]

You are more than likely correct. It does make a mockery of their communications though when you realise that they will not engage unless it is to their advantage.

Can you blame them?!

 

[Highland37]

I already have. Most companies are happy to engage with the customer on good and bad news.