ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[NotATrainspott]

From the ITT:

Bidders should note that “inter-city” is not a term that ScotRail uses or that Transport Scotland intends to use publicly, but is simply a shorthand term used to define a collection of services. For the avoidance of doubt, Bidders should not use the registered InterCity brand or a variant since the Scottish Ministers do not wish to compromise the value of the strong and popular ScotRail Brand.

The brochure produced when Abellio won the franchise had the HSTs in standard ScotRail livery. Evidently someone at Transport Scotland had a change of heart and now thinks a special identity would be worthwhile. Maybe in good time we'll see a special livery for rural/scenic trains too?

 

[jzw95]

On a 170,without fail, the first seats to be occupied are always the single, inward facing seats behind the cab and at the body ends. No view whatsoever except the toilet door.

Maybe it depends on the route? On my experience on a random variety of services over several years as a passenger, the seats facing the toilet are the last to go! Tables often get taken at the same rate as airline seats. In fact, I think ScotRail gets the table-to-airline seat ratio right on the 170s, as usually everyone can get what they want (if we exclude the services which have severe under-provision of seats, cough, Inverness).

 

[59CosG95]

The livery is OK, if a little dull. Certainly better than the horrible FGW one anyway. Like others, I thought the point of the Scotrail livery was that it wasn't going to chop and change all the time though.

Agreed, the colours don't stand out particularly well, but the idea of different liveries for commuter/regional and InterCity services is one I quite like. DB do it very well over in Germany, allowing greater distinction between the service types; perhaps that was what ScotRail's design team were harking on. I like the idea of silhouetted Scots City images a lot as well; the only change I'd make would probably be to invert the colours, but there's probably a reason why these two were chosen as opposed to your bog-standard Saltire.

 

[jingsmonty]

Is there any information available on the timetable for the HSTs on the Highland Line? I know an hourly service is planned each hour, one to Glasgow the other to Edinburgh, but beyond that I have no information.

That's what I was wondering as well - the 'Infrastructure improvements' for HML have been non-existent, the HML struggles for capacity just now! Given that HST will run at a slower speed on sections (there are 'SP' differential speed boards in several places) than the current 170/158s, although the superior acceleration will compensate for that, I presume.

Very hard to see where the hourly service will fit in..guessing the initial introduction will be with something like the current timetable. Also, I read somewhere that Scotrail are calculating a 89% availability for HST, which seems optimistic..

 

[QueensCurve]

I was talking to my Dad about this earlier tonight, and it's funny how things come round.

Bear in mind that quite a few Glasgow-Aberdeen services were operated by mk3 push pull sets from 1981.

So as of 2018 standards of comfort and quality on Scottish long distance routes will be returned to the levels reached 37 years beforehand, but using even earlier stock.

Brilliant, and I mean that as a tribute to mk3s rather than to be sarcastic.

There was one Mk3/DBSO/477XX operating between Glasgow and Aberdeen as early as 1979. I fondly remember being surprised to see it when I went to catch the 12:17 to Glasgow at Dundee one day in November '79 (a couple of weeks or so after the Invergowrie crash).

I don't recall any further Mk3 sets being deployed on the route in the early 80s but all the existing Mk2 sets on the route were converted to DBSO/477XX operation by about 1984.

The Scotrail Express was the high point for rolling stock in Scotland and, yes, we are finally getting back to where we were.

 

[QueensCurve]

Around '88 according to my father, where they were replaced with 156s and 150s (a pretty criminal decision), until the 158s came into service in Scotland in 1990.

It was 1988 when the Scotrail Express sets were as I recall pilfered to provide rolling stock for the newly electrified Liverpool St to Norwich route.

Scottish travellers were reassured by BR that the "158s were better than the stock they replaced" but I would beg to differ.

 

[jingsmonty]

This image of a toxic new livery just aired on Rail Engineer.
http://www.railengineer.uk/2017/03/23/scotrails-new-hsts/

I quite like it! The blue should be darker though, same as current 'Saltire' livery - looks a bit insipid in the picture. Like the idea of the images of Scottish landmarks. Would also like to see clever use of LED mood lighting in the coaches - would give a nice classy ambience to the interior if done properly. Best Scotrail livery I think was the 1980s take on the BR intercity livery - that won't happen though, although I quite like the 'Saltire' livery as well - it is 'Scotlands Railway' after all!

As someone else said, should definetly name the Power cars with appropriate names, would be a nice touch. Scotrail in 'First' days were a bit faceless and 'corporate' with things like that - there was a 170 named 'First transforming travel' if I remember correctly! Could even do a public vote for some of them (pretty sure this happened with some of the 47/7 locos, on the E & G push pulls back in BR days) - Any suggestions?

Shame about the S*#te Grammer seats though (as I've said before) - how to ruin a Mk3 coach! Comfy coach sitting on a poorly pitched wooden plank...

 

[QueensCurve]

A trip to Mallaig or Oban in a 156 is an equally rotten experience.

It was pretty cold on a run I had from Inverness to Thurso/Wick in February about 1984 in the steam [barely] heated loco hauled stock.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Im not sure about the Saltire logo on the front. It looks like its 3D but I think it would look cleaner without. Same with the buildings on the mk3s, a bit ott.

Thanks,
Ross

 

[Bletchleyite]

Shame about the S*#te Grammer seats though (as I've said before) - how to ruin a Mk3 coach!

Seats are such a matter of opinion. That seat remains my UK favourite.

 

[sprinterguy]

Im not sure about the Saltire logo on the front. It looks like its 3D but I think it would look cleaner without.

I quite like that. The features of the livery - the famous landmarks, the nose badge, the dark window surrounds - have been quite well thought out IMO, it's just the ceaseless march of white based liveries that irks me.

 

[GrimShady]

I like it! I'm not a fan of the drab boring saltire livery. Bring back ScotRail Bluestripe for the HST fleet!

 

[route101]

Maybe it depends on the route? On my experience on a random variety of services over several years as a passenger, the seats facing the toilet are the last to go! Tables often get taken at the same rate as airline seats. In fact, I think ScotRail gets the table-to-airline seat ratio right on the 170s, as usually everyone can get what they want (if we exclude the services which have severe under-provision of seats, cough, Inverness).

My fav seats on SR 170s are the row of airline seats in the centre coach . There 2 seats that face each other behind them and the vestibule . When im by myself i prefer airline as dont really fancy sharing a table with a group .

 

[Murph]

I really quite like this new livery. It looks modern, classy, and generally not over the top in any way. It reminds me of the BR Pullman InterCity livery (reversed BR blue InterCity). I do also quite like the Saltire livery, but think this is a really good livery that properly creates a distinctive InterCity branding, and that having separate branding for IC vs. others is no bad thing, helping push it as a premium brand.

Anyone know if the complete sets will officially be considered class 255?

 

[BestWestern]

One of the few features of the Scotrail HST livery design that I welcome is the return to one piece headlight covers either side of the horn grille, if that is what is intended: It's much more in keeping with the original sweeping design of the HST power car fronts, rather than the virtually identikit individual lenses that plague many modern designs or refurbishments.

I doubt that's likely to be part of the real thing. The artist's impression also seems to have an enormous windscreen and cabside windows, and a generally sharper design to the front end. Perhaps they're planning to fit brand new cabs!

 

[cf111]

I like the livery, looking forward to see what landmarks they use for Inverness & Aberdeen (Inverness Castle & the Kessock Bridge/ King's College & Marischal College?).

To be honest the HSTs would good in almost anything!

 

[Starmill]

Seats are such a matter of opinion. That seat remains my UK favourite.

There's nothing at all wrong with them as a seat. Their use in a train ruins everything, because they completely block out the view. This is Scotland, people do need to see out of the windows thanks.

 

[BestWestern]

....

This is Scotland, people do need to see out of the windows thanks.

Do the Scots suffer from some sort of inherent claustrophobia then?!

 

[380101]

Not seen it mentioned so far regarding the power door conversions. Scotrail have chosen to go with an electrically powered sliding door as opposed to plug doors. Have seen the prototype on the internal discussion forum along with video of the doors working.

 

[BestWestern]

Not seen it mentioned so far regarding the power door conversions. Scotrail have chosen to go with an electrically powered sliding door as opposed to plug doors. Have seen the prototype on the internal discussion forum along with video of the doors working.

This is significantly cheaper than the sliding plug option, I believe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's nothing at all wrong with them as a seat. Their use in a train ruins everything, because they completely block out the view. This is Scotland, people do need to see out of the windows thanks.

Are they mounted sideways or something?

OK, in an airline seat they stop you looking out *along the train*, but so does compartment stock and that tends to be popular among enthusiasts.

Many would say they offer a good level of privacy to compete against the car. I'm less bothered about that, but I do like the fact that the headrest actually rests my head and not the backs of my shoulders like the too-small Class 170 seats in which it is physically impossible for me not to slouch.

 

[Starmill]

I dislike compartment stock for exactly the reason given. They block out the view across the aisle as well as to the next row. They also prevent you from being able to see along the train how well loaded a coach is because people's heads are hidden. If you're trying to enjoy the panorama of the sea from a GW HST you get 1/3 of a window only to see out of, and only one side of the train. The rest of your view is taken up by plastic. If they had bays of 4 that were the same width as the window and lined up on both sides (they don't, on both counts - where the ScotRail 158s do) that would go some way to reducing the restricted viability. An as built 158, 170 etc might have slightly less supportive seating, but you can see out of the window all along both sides of your carriage.

 

[BestWestern]

If you're trying to enjoy the panorama of the sea from a GW HST you get 1/3 of a window only to see out of, and only one side of the train. The rest of your view is taken up by plastic. If they had bays of 4 that were the same width as the window and lined up on both sides (they don't, on both counts - where the ScotRail 158s do) that would go some way to reducing the restricted viability.

A GW HST is not intended as a tourist device, though. Whilst they do indeed traverse some scenic routes, they are intended to move as many people as reasonably possible from here to there, which is ultimately the function of a train. Services passing that most scenic sea view of them all, Dawlish, are often rammed, just as the commuter services are at the London end. Half the trainload stood up and wedged into the aisles because there are half the number of seats, is not a pleasant way for anyone to travel.

Lots of nice bays of seats neatly lined up with the windows is simply neither a priority nor practical, except perhaps on charter stock. It would be lovely if we could have such sparsely loaded trains so as to make it more important, but we don't. The railway needs to carry people, and there are more and more of them turning up every year.

 

[dk1]

This is significantly cheaper than the sliding plug option, I believe.

A fair chance it will be less reliable then

 

[dk1]

My fav seats on SR 170s are the row of airline seats in the centre coach . There 2 seats that face each other behind them and the vestibule . When im by myself i prefer airline as dont really fancy sharing a table with a group .

Snap!! They would be mine too. Never choose a table if travelling alone. Saves having to make eye contact which could be closely followed by inane conversation.

 

[jingsmonty]

Seats are such a matter of opinion. That seat remains my UK favourite.

You must be a vastly different shape to me, then! Comfiest seats (re pitch, if not so much for legroom in places) I find are the current Scotrail 170s - I'll miss them, if not the units themselves. Have sat in plenty of Grammer seats (Inverness 158s and a trip to St Austell a few years ago - very numb posterior by the time Cornwall came along...) and I just detest them, as does my Wife, who is over 12" shorter than me, so it's not a question of height..

The VTEC seats aren't too bad (not a patch on IC80 seats though), although they seem to have the same weird pitch as Grammers, if more padding. Grammers would be better if only they could be tilted back a little - the base is too flat (no thigh support) and the back too upright. I'd like a seat to sit IN rather than sit ON, if you get my meaning?

 

[IanXC]

I have split discussion of potential names for these power cars to a new thread here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=144314

 

[380101]

A fair chance it will be less reliable then

it's cheaper as they have less work to do on the body ends to fit them. The sliding door will be more reliable as there is less moving parts than a plug door.

 

[dk1]

it's cheaper as they have less work to do on the body ends to fit them. The sliding door will be more reliable as there is less moving parts than a plug door.

I have suffered many failures with sliding doors requiring their isolation but never have I had a problem with plug doors on a 170. They must be one of the most reliable ever fitted to a train fleet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A fair chance it will be less reliable then

Not necessarily - a simple sliding door is, er, much simpler than a plug door.