ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Clansman]

It is hardly Inter City though, despite what they call it.
Yes, they may be travelling between cities of Scotland, but in reality, it's a commuter and inter-urban operation.

If these routes aren't Intercity, then what is? When the smaller stations are eliminated from the HST schedule, the journeys will be on a time comparison with the likes of London KX to York/Leeds/Newcastle - the only difference being is that up here they'll only go 100mph maximum and that our cities are smaller - but still commuter hot points. So are you implying the listed routes aren't "Intercity" as well? Just a bit curious as to how you differentiate between Intercity and Inter-Urban in comparison to journeys such as the ones listed which are normally deemed "Intercity".

At the end of the day, I just think that if Transport Scotland and Scotrail are giving it all "True Intercity Network" and "Revolutionary" then they should live up to that by maximising it. I've no problem with the current layout on the whole, but there are some tweaks they could still make in order to enhance the passenger experience, at the expense of literally nothing

Watching people board trains all day I have noticed a few things which makes me wonder about the whole scenic train idea. On a 170,without fail, the first seats to be occupied are always the single, inward facing seats behind the cab and at the body ends. No view whatsoever except the toilet door. Next the airline seats tend to fill with people sitting on the aisle seat to try to prevent a neighbour. Not interested in the view. I suspect the only ones really bothered are families with kids and tourist routes such as the WHL. Doesn't appear from people's behaviour that commuters care about a window seat much at all.

I notice this as well, but only on journeys that are short distance commuter (such as Glasgow to Stirling/Dunblane/Alloa) and peak time Intercity services. Especially on the busier trains, it looks to me as if it falls down to if you can get a seat in the first place. I'm positive that if you were to take the passengers who aim for the sideways seats with no window will jump to a free table on a quiet service. But on busy services, beggars can't be choosers most of the time.

 

[Marklund]

If these routes aren't Intercity, then what is? When the smaller stations are eliminated from the HST schedule, the journeys will be on a time comparison with the likes of London KX to York/Leeds/Newcastle - the only difference being is that up here they'll only go 100mph maximum and that our cities are smaller - but still commuter hot points.

So, as I said, commuter...
And the Glasgow services will still be Glasgow-Stirling-Perth-Dundee, again, more inter urban, than true InterCity.

So are you implying the listed routes aren't "Intercity" as well? Just a bit curious as to how you differentiate between Intercity and Inter-Urban in comparison to journeys such as the ones listed which are normally deemed "Intercity".

No.

At the end of the day, I just think that if Transport Scotland and Scotrail are giving it all "True Intercity Network" and "Revolutionary" then they should live up to that by maximising it. I've no problem with the current layout on the whole, but there are some tweaks they could still make in order to enhance the passenger experience, at the expense of literally nothing

You can call it whatever you like. Me? I don't buy the spin from TS.
What's the E&G then?

 

[Clansman]

So, as I said, commuter...
And the Glasgow services will still be Glasgow-Stirling-Perth-Dundee, again, more inter urban, than true InterCity.

You can call it whatever you like. Me? I don't buy the spin from TS.
What's the E&G then?

Fair enough - either way it's an improvement for us up here definitely. It's about time we got some proper Intercity style comfort on routes which merit it as much as those which currently have it.

I'm sceptical to Transport Scotland's approach to it also, although it's still a big improvement compared to what we have currently.

No idea what E&G should be classed as - don't give, tbh. Just wondered how you differentiated Scotrail "Intercity" to the rest of the UK

 

[CC 72100]

The seating layout for standard class includes 10 tables for every coach - which is a lot to say the least - and already drains capacity..

Some of the first class coaches that were converted into standard class vehicles - frequently coaches E and F if applicable - have 8 tables per coach, and in a different position to all other standard class GWR mark 3s. For me, that seems a sensible amount.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Toxic? I like that.

So do I... It's quite nice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some of the first class coaches that were converted into standard class vehicles - frequently coaches E and F if applicable - have 8 tables per coach, and in a different position to all other standard class GWR mark 3s. For me, that seems a sensible amount.

I'd go about half and half, personally, which is I think 9 tables (a Mk3 coach would have 18 bays, 9 on each side, if fully tabled).

 

[Marklund]

Fair enough - either way it's an improvement for us up here definitely. It's about time we got some proper Intercity style comfort on routes which merit it as much as those which currently have it.

People want a seat, and the train to run to time. Anything else is a bonus.

I'm sceptical to Transport Scotland's approach to it also, although it's still a big improvement compared to what we have currently.

No idea what E&G should be classed as - don't give, tbh. Just wondered how you differentiated Scotrail "Intercity" to the rest of the UK

To me, it's comparable with Trans Pennine, albeit on a smaller scale.

 

[Clansman]

This photo has just been placed in the article:

 

[jopsuk]

That livery's not too bad- though I prefer the Saltire livery

 

[Bletchleyite]

Definitely approve of the proper use of the yellow and red stripes. Should be mandatory nationally.

 

[Domh245]

I think the thing that is throwing me the most is the choice of the old style of headlight clusters. I wonder how it'd look with the "normal" headlights seen on all bar the EMT fleets.

 

[sprinterguy]

Watching people board trains all day I have noticed a few things which makes me wonder about the whole scenic train idea. On a 170,without fail, the first seats to be occupied are always the single, inward facing seats behind the cab and at the body ends. No view whatsoever except the toilet door...Doesn't appear from people's behaviour that commuters care about a window seat much at all.

I wonder how much of that preference is down to the vagaries of the stock used and, as Clansman mentions above, the chances of obtaining a seat at all: On every Voyager or Pendolino service I've travelled on in the past five years, most of those busy peak time trains, the pairs of seats next to window pillars, which are substantial on both types of traction, are always the last to be occupied before it becomes standing room only. A window view is evidently valued by the generally unsentimental commuters of Birmingham and London, despite the lack of striking scenery en route.

 

[sprinterguy]

It is hardly Inter City though, despite what they call it.

Linking the primary cities of a country in it's own right, it doesn't exactly fall far short. BR's Scotrail division saw fit to link these cities with comparatively (for the time) fast traditional loco-hauled or push-pull trains in the 1980s; in the modern day I would consider Edinburgh/Glasgow - Inverness/Aberdeen to be akin to the regional Transpennine Express operation, which is itself currently witnessing substantial investment in longer trains better suited to the long distance market.

 

[me123]

People are probably subconsciously more attracted to the window seats, even if they don't necessarily look out of the window. They have more natural light, but even at night it's better than having a bit of plastic. I reckon the single seats being taken up on Scotrail's 170s is mostly due to them being the only seats on the train where you don't have anyone next to you.

I like the new Scotrail livery, particularly the little saltire on the front of the train, but I thought the point of the unified Scotrail livery was that it wasn't going to be replaced constantly. Is this livery specifically for the HST fleet, or will all the trains be getting repainted? (Again).

 

[sprinterguy]

I think the thing that is throwing me the most is the choice of the old style of headlight clusters. I wonder how it'd look with the "normal" headlights seen on all bar the EMT fleets.

One of the few features of the Scotrail HST livery design that I welcome is the return to one piece headlight covers either side of the horn grille, if that is what is intended: It's much more in keeping with the original sweeping design of the HST power car fronts, rather than the virtually identikit individual lenses that plague many modern designs or refurbishments.

 

[Clansman]

I like the new Scotrail livery, particularly the little saltire on the front of the train, but I thought the point of the unified Scotrail livery was that it wasn't going to be replaced constantly. Is this livery specifically for the HST fleet, or will all the trains be getting repainted? (Again).

Definitely exclusive to the HSTs, otherwise the 385s and 170s being liveried just now would just be plain white probably.

 

[edwin_m]

On every Voyager or Pendolino service I've travelled on in the past five years, most of those busy peak time trains, the pairs of seats next to window pillars, which are substantial on both types of traction, are always the last to be occupied before it becomes standing room only. A window view is evidently valued by the generally unsentimental commuters of Birmingham and London, despite the lack of striking scenery en route.

The pillar is "substantial" in thickness as well as width, and together with the tilt-compatible body profile means that the shoulder room in the adjacent seats is noticeably less than in those that are next to windows. This may be another reason for the window pillar seats being unpopular. Less of a problem in the Mk3 though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The pillar is "substantial" in thickness as well as width, and together with the tilt-compatible body profile means that the shoulder room in the adjacent seats is noticeably less than in those that are next to windows. This may be another reason for the window pillar seats being unpopular. Less of a problem in the Mk3 though.

In any case the south WCML is actually really rather scenic.

 

[sprinterguy]

The pillar is "substantial" in thickness as well as width, and together with the tilt-compatible body profile means that the shoulder room in the adjacent seats is noticeably less than in those that are next to windows. This may be another reason for the window pillar seats being unpopular. Less of a problem in the Mk3 though.

Indeed: I'm not fully conversant with the specific seats being described, but generally on a 170 the window pillars are comparatively thin and relatively narrow, and the windows themselves both tall and wide, so they impinge only slightly on both the visual and physical environment of the passenger compared to those on modern inter-city stock; a quality they largely share with the older mark 3 stock.

 

[sprinterguy]

In any case the south WCML is actually really rather scenic.

Really? It falls short compared to even the neighbouring Chiltern line in my opinion, let alone to the scenic appeal of the Highland main line (and I'm not a huge fan of the fairly generic moorland roll of the Cairngorms compared to the craggy grandeur of the many hills to the west). At least you stand an excellent chance of watching Red Kites in numbers over the rolling hills surrounding Princes Risborough, which the West Coast route rather lacks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really? It falls short compared to even the neighbouring Chiltern line in my opinion, let alone to the scenic appeal of the Highland main line (and I'm not a huge fan of the fairly generic moorland roll of the Cairngorms compared to the craggy grandeur of the many hills to the west).

If you like craggy mountain scenery it's not for you, but I find the greenery, rolling hills, canals etc beautiful. Indeed, I find the entire WCML beautiful (the West Midlands and North West conurbations perhaps interesting rather than beautiful ) in different ways - much nicer than the utterly tedious flatlands-after-more-flatlands ECML.

On a commute, sunrise and sunset over the Chilterns are nothing short of stunning. Not mountainous, just *nice*.

The rump Chiltern line I find about the same, the Aylesbury line actually a bit boring as the heavyweight LU infrastructure and cable conduits have a habit of getting in the way of the view.

Anyway, a bit OT so enjoy the view (below) and let's leave this bit there

 

[sprinterguy]

If you like craggy mountain scenery it's not for you, but I find the greenery, rolling hills, canals etc beautiful. Indeed, I find the entire WCML beautiful (the West Midlands and North West conurbations perhaps interesting rather than beautiful ) in different ways - much nicer than the utterly tedious flatlands-after-more-flatlands ECML.

On a commute, sunrise and sunset over the Chilterns are nothing short of stunning. Not mountainous, just *nice*.

I can certainly agree that the South WCML is far more scenically stimulating that the south ECML (South of Doncaster, it really has nothing to recommend it IMO), and that the Chiltern route is particularly pleasing in its own right.

Going well off topic, I would also say that the West Midlands and North West conurbations have a distinctive appeal of their own, even if many of the services of the intercity operator for the area do seem to spend more time trundling through those areas than is strictly necessary to enjoy the view!

 

[cjmillsnun]

Why have they shown the old light clusters on that impression?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why have they shown the old light clusters on that impression?

Probably because that's what the image they had to start with was like.

 

[BRX]

This photo has just been placed in the article:

I know it's just an "artist's impression" but I'm peering at what looks like the un-chilternised door by the buffet section and hoping (probably over-optimistically) that we might be left with an openable droplight there.

The livery is OK, if a little dull. Certainly better than the horrible FGW one anyway. Like others, I thought the point of the Scotrail livery was that it wasn't going to chop and change all the time though.

 

[causton]

I know it's just an "artist's impression" but I'm peering at what looks like the un-chilternised door by the buffet section and hoping (probably over-optimistically) that we might be left with an openable droplight there.

IIRC those doors are locked (or possibly welded, or somehow) shut and the droplight is fixed at the top and is unable to be moved down. I found out the hard way when I wanted some fresh air from one!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The livery is OK, if a little dull. Certainly better than the horrible FGW one anyway. Like others, I thought the point of the Scotrail livery was that it wasn't going to chop and change all the time though.

Sort of. The point of it is that it isn't tied to an operator so isn't required to change at franchise change, not that it shouldn't be freshened up periodically.

 

[43096]

IIRC those doors are locked (or possibly welded, or somehow) shut and the droplight is fixed at the top and is unable to be moved down. I found out the hard way when I wanted some fresh air from one!

As I understand it that door is retained for emergency use only on the ScotRail sets, as it is on the Chiltern conversions. It saves on the cost of converting one set of doors and it's really no different from the arrangement in HST buffet cars now (which don't have CDL).

 

[BRX]

As I understand it that door is retained for emergency use only on the ScotRail sets, as it is on the Chiltern conversions. It saves on the cost of converting one set of doors and it's really no different from the arrangement in HST buffet cars now (which don't have CDL).

How is it any good for emergency use if it's locked shut?

I like having droplights for some access to fresh air but they are good for people who want to take photos too (no window reflections) which could be a consideration on Scottish routes, popular with tourists. I'd hoped that we might get some kind of opening windows on the new sleeper stock for similar reasons but it seems it's not to be. Have never quite pinned down whether there's actually any rule which says openable windows can't exist in any form in "new" stock, or whether it's just down to the operator.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How is it any good for emergency use if it's locked shut?

Presumably it retains the emergency release facility so it can be opened in emergency only but not in normal operations.

I must admit I do think having one door not converted does look a bit rubbish, though.