Scotrail Franchise - Abellio

[NotATrainspott]

And here in lies the problem. The SNP government have got Independence tunnel vision and have had for some time. They tried convince us that we could survive on oil, renewables, whisky and tourists. Well as is now well known the oil industry is in freefall, they have shafted renewables big time and so they end up doing silly things like this as they have to prove to everyone we can as a country afford to lose London money and tourism plays a big part of this and will do until they iether lose power or get a second go at Indiref.

Its just shear desperation and like their other attempt to make money from tourist trains (i.e pricing normals out of sleaper berths and into the seats) will only end in tears. Similar fates will I think awate the sceenic trains when fully launched, passengers need space and a seat first and formost. Only once you fix that do you start vaignitty ideas like reducing capacity to include more tables.

How many times does it need to be said that the Sleeper can't be run for the sake of 'normals' alone? They simply will not pay enough in fares for the service to be anywhere near economic. Buses, planes and daytime trains have never been better or more competitive and they're only to become moreso in future. Would you rather that they had just decided to stop the Sleeper completely? You could never justify new rolling stock without tourist money, and the Mk3s won't last forever.

 

[Highland37]

And here in lies the problem. The SNP government have got Independence tunnel vision and have had for some time. They tried convince us that we could survive on oil, renewables, whisky and tourists. Well as is now well known the oil industry is in freefall, they have shafted renewables big time and so they end up doing silly things like this as they have to prove to everyone we can as a country afford to lose London money and tourism plays a big part of this and will do until they iether lose power or get a second go at Indiref.

Its just shear desperation and like their other attempt to make money from tourist trains (i.e pricing normals out of sleaper berths and into the seats) will only end in tears. Similar fates will I think awate the sceenic trains when fully launched, passengers need space and a seat first and formost. Only once you fix that do you start vaignitty ideas like reducing capacity to include more tables.

I disagree but it always surprises me when people seem to think the SNP should not be focussed on independence. Everyone knows they are an vote with that in their heads.

You appear to think that the Scottish Government is trying to make money from tourist trains. Sorry to disappoint, but in national economic terms in Scotland, these trains are pretty irrelevant.

As for you thoughts on oil, I would draw your attention to a country across the North Sea which is doing very well in terms of oil, even though it has less, and has much better railways. Why can't the Scots stand on their own two feet?

 

[Butts]

I disagree but it always surprises me when people seem to think the SNP should not be focussed on independence. Everyone knows they are an vote with that in their heads.

You appear to think that the Scottish Government is trying to make money from tourist trains. Sorry to disappoint, but in national economic terms in Scotland, these trains are pretty irrelevant.

As for you thoughts on oil, I would draw your attention to a country across the North Sea which is doing very well in terms of oil, even though it has less, and has much better railways. Why can't the Scots stand on their own two feet?

Four words.....

Royal Bank of Scotland.

 

[Highland37]

Four words.....

Royal Bank of Scotland.

Another few words - managed and "regulated" from London and happened as part of the UK.

I never quite get why those in favour of the Union bring attention to the bad things that have happened whilst in it.

 

[HH]

As for you thoughts on oil, I would draw your attention to a country across the North Sea which is doing very well in terms of oil, even though it has less, and has much better railways.

Because one country that has a little oil appears to be doing well does not mean that another, rather different country, would necessarily do well. This is a logical fallacy.

 

[HH]

Another few words - managed and "regulated" from London and happened as part of the UK.

Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling were from which country? Pray remind me.

Let me put it another way. The countries are heavily interlinked; many of us are part Scottish and part English. There's actually rather more logic in an independent London than there is in an independent Scotland.

 

[Highland37]

Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling were from which country? Pray remind me.

Let me put it another way. The countries are heavily interlinked; many of us are part Scottish and part English. There's actually rather more logic in an independent London than there is in an independent Scotland.

Scotland and absolutely useless. Are you suggesting that a person's place of birth is indication of their competence?

Everything is interlinked these days. Surely someone with an interest in railways understands that?

Again, it surprises me how poorly informed some are on the very thing they wish to protect. Their is no union of London and another place. It's a Union of Scotland and England. There are no other unions in this context but this argument constantly appears.

 

[HH]

Scotland and absolutely useless. Are you suggesting that a person's place of birth is indication of their competence?

Everything is interlinked these days. Surely someone with an interest in railways understands that?

Again, it surprises me how poorly informed some are on the very thing they wish to protect. Their is no union of London and another place. It's a Union of Scotland and England. There are no other unions in this context but this argument constantly appears.

I'm absolutely not suggesting that the place of birth has any indication of competence; nor does it matter whether something was decided in Stormont or Westminster - the people in both are like the pigs and humans on Animal Farm.

Nor do I believe that ancient history has any real relevance to today. There are many, many people in London with no links to anywhere else in the UK, unlike Scotland.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Of course they are trying to make money from tourist trains, its obvious! The winning bids for both Scottish franchises is proof of this, and whilst I do understand that things like the sleaper woant make money purely on day to day travelers with competition as it is you can welcome and encourage visiters without turning the entire experience into something thats becoming tacky and expensive and only available to the ritch with any option for budget concious travelers like affordably priced birth upgrades vanishing overnight. The sleapers travel to far flung corners of the network and people should not be penalised by a ponsy over pretentious overnight train when the tourists quite gladly used it in the high summer anyway!

Likewise with the sceenic trains concept, its a great idea and I like it but its a poor deal for local people, again in rural areas when they are encouraged and insentivised to go by public transport but the stock situation and often platform capacity means only a short DMU can work the service which is itself limmited due to miles of tocan controlled single track and all of a sudden the number of seats decreases and the tourists have taken them all. Great way to treat the people who live here all year round!
Anyway appologies I shant rant and moan anymore, It seams im not allowed an opinion.

 

[47271]

Of course they are trying to make money from tourist trains, its obvious! The winning bids for both Scottish franchises is proof of this, and whilst I do understand that things like the sleaper woant make money purely on day to day travelers with competition as it is you can welcome and encourage visiters without turning the entire experience into something thats becoming tacky and expensive and only available to the ritch with any option for budget concious travelers like affordably priced birth upgrades vanishing overnight. The sleapers travel to far flung corners of the network and people should not be penalised by a ponsy over pretentious overnight train when the tourists quite gladly used it in the high summer anyway!

Likewise with the sceenic trains concept, its a great idea and I like it but its a poor deal for local people, again in rural areas when they are encouraged and insentivised to go by public transport but the stock situation and often platform capacity means only a short DMU can work the service which is itself limmited due to miles of tocan controlled single track and all of a sudden the number of seats decreases and the tourists have taken them all. Great way to treat the people who live here all year round!
Anyway appologies I shant rant and moan anymore, It seams im not allowed an opinion.

I think that your opinion has a lot more credence than some since your comments about the SNP were purely focused on the railways, I'll say no more...

This is what I think.

The sleepers: I know that it isn't fashionable to praise Serco but they're trying with that service in a way that First never bothered to. Even with the clapped out stock they have to work with and at quiet times of year the Inverness Highlander is noticeably busier than it was two years ago. They're building new trains and, yes, some of the prices in some of the compartments on them will be high, but through a few regulars I know very well, the operator is under no illusions about the dangers of alienating frequent users. But the unanswered question in my mind is whether or not they'll drop below the £150 berth price point catered for by the current First Class Flexipass, or if anything costing less than that will be in the seats, we'll see.

All I'll say is that they need to think about their pricing very carefully or they could be in for a pasting from some very able and articulate people...

As far as scenic trains are concerned, aren't they just the same old 158s tarted up a bit? Speaking as someone who very nearly had to stand expensively from Kyle to Inverness on a 158 a few years ago because of a coach party having block booked one of the two carriages, I know exactly what you mean, but there's nothing new about this problem on the scenic routes. And, I hate to admit to being a tourist on Scotrail, but we were actually on holiday at the time when we got on the train at Kyle!

 

[HH]

As far as scenic trains are concerned, aren't they just the same old 158s tarted up a bit? Speaking as someone who very nearly had to stand expensively from Kyle to Inverness on a 158 a few years ago because of a coach party having block booked one of the two carriages, I know exactly what you mean, but there's nothing new about this problem on the scenic routes. And, I hate to admit to being a tourist on Scotrail, but we were actually on holiday at the time when we got on the train at Kyle!

They are 158s. Tarted up quite a bit. They're not a bad train IMO. Like everywhere, when you suddenly get a rush of passengers for one reason or another (tonight for me it was Chelsea vs West Ham) then it gets crowded. Anywhere people want to visit gets tourists; the up side is that it boosts the local economy; the downside is that the buggers get everywhere.

 

[Blindtraveler]

1 point you both make, they are, all be it tarted up 158s nothing wrong with that. The thing wrong is the emphasis thats being put on the service as particularly fantastic for visiters. These visiters used these trains, and the sleapers come to that without the marketing pressure (read shear desperation from the Scottish govd, passed on via Transport Scotland) thats being applied today. The prices, accept some advances on certain routes are high and I already know 2 families who fly and drive when holidaying up North as they feel, with some justification that the train service is wowfull and as 1 person once said to me he could stand smelling a mixture of toilets and armpits on his Thameslink commute and didnt have to go the highlands for it.

the sleapers will indeed have to watch what their doing price wise, particularly now the flat beds project has been shelved as quite frankly no matter how nice the new seats are they will still be more expensive than an overnight coach and if the only option for someone without a spare 200 odd quid to blow on a return trip then they are in for a shock.

 

[47271]

as 1 person once said to me he could stand smelling a mixture of toilets and armpits on his Thameslink commute and didnt have to go the highlands for it.

Ha ha, brilliant, the first laugh I've had all day.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Happy to help.

 

[theironroad]

Scenic trains are all well and good when you can see the scenery!

Although a NR problem, uncontrolled tree growth on parts of the WHL and Kyle line make scenic viewing frustrating at times. I remember reading in the Friends of WHL mag a couple of years ago that this is an issue that they are trying to influence.

On a positive, i did notice a few weeks ago some tree and vegetation clearance had been done on a small section somewhere between Helensburgh and Arrochar, though may have been nearer Garelochhead, whereever it was it was appreciated and hopefully a lot more can be done.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I assume, although glad to be corrected that a large amount or maybe all of the WHL vegetation clearing budget is blown btwn Fortbill and Mallaig to prevent the Jackabite kettles turning the Scottish countryside into the Saharah desert each year?

 

[Highland37]

I'm absolutely not suggesting that the place of birth has any indication of competence; nor does it matter whether something was decided in Stormont or Westminster - the people in both are like the pigs and humans on Animal Farm.

Nor do I believe that ancient history has any real relevance to today. There are many, many people in London with no links to anywhere else in the UK, unlike Scotland.

I am not sure why you made specific reference and brought attention to where those two people are from then if you weren't trying to link the two matters.

It DOES matter where things are decided. With the Brexit "debate", independence, the rise of populist movements across the globe and other things, where decisions are made and who makes them is at the centre of these issues. You could take it to an extreme and say that Brussels should decide what the UK's immigration policy is if I followed your line of thinking.

 

[Highland37]

Anyway appologies I shant rant and moan anymore, It seams im not allowed an opinion.

With the greatest of respect, I don't consider the places the the sleeper travels to as far flung. I live here all the time too.

You appear to be doing that modern thing where a disagreement is interpreted as an attack. No one is suggesting your opinion is not valid. I just think you are plain incorrect.

 

[Fishplate84]

the sleapers will indeed have to watch what their doing price wise, particularly now the flat beds project has been shelved as quite frankly no matter how nice the new seats are they will still be more expensive than an overnight coach and if the only option for someone without a spare 200 odd quid to blow on a return trip then they are in for a shock.

£200 to blow on a return trip.
You do have options, Drive, Coach, Fly, Day Train. Its horses for courses.
Adding up all the costs attached to getting between Scotland and London, even more so from the Highlands to London, like fuel, parking, hotel, waiting around in lounges, connecting on other services into the Capital, the underground, taxi's to the station or airport then I'd be surprised if you could do it by any mode for less than £200.

Far from 'blowing' the money on a return trip, maybe thats the real cost, by whatever means, of travelling the best part of 1000 miles. By my calculations its about 20p per mile.

Is it fair? Whats fair? Do you 'need' to travel to London, or 'want' to travel to London. What is fair about expecting the rest of society to pay for you?

So long as, all things taken into account, the cost of the sleeper is competitive with other modes, then it seem to me to be priced about right, especially that even at this cost, the taxpayer is probably also subsidising you by a significant sum as the cost of delivery is considerably more than that covered by the ticket cost.

We'd all love to travel around for next to nothing, but that isn't the reality of life. There is a very real cost to it (traction, track access, crew costs, fuel, rolling stock leases, station access charges, back office costs, industry costs associated to ticketing, paying the guys to attache and detach coaches when the train splits in the middle of the night, maintenance, keeping the dining car stocked, laundry, cleaning etc etc etc. Unless a lot of that comes for free, someone has to pay.

 

[Marklund]

the sleapers will indeed have to watch what their doing price wise, particularly now the flat beds project has been shelved as quite frankly no matter how nice the new seats are they will still be more expensive than an overnight coach and if the only option for someone without a spare 200 odd quid to blow on a return trip then they are in for a shock.

Yes, very much yes.

Booking for arrival tomorrow in Inverness, the Heathrow flight is £200 one way. Gatwick, and Luton are £62 and £30 respectively, National Express coach is £24.90.

The Sleeper? £205, £120, or £75

With people being less inclined to share with strangers in berths (IMHO) the lie flat and or pod option being dropped is a huge mistake.

Still, this is in the wrong thread, and should be moved to the CS discussion.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Yes and No, given what started this was tourist trains related discussion.

I dont insist on being right all the time, quite the opposit but its nice to see someone takes my point!

 

[Clansman]

With people being less inclined to share with strangers in berths (IMHO) the lie flat and or pod option being dropped is a huge mistake.

Still, this is in the wrong thread, and should be moved to the CS discussion.

This was due to safety reasons from what I heard. Was muttered about on the CS thread somewhere.

As for the whole tourist train thing, I never knew aligning seats with windows constitutes any train as "scenic stock". If that's the case, you should be able to turn any train into so called "scenic stock". In my opinion, proportionate number of bays and window alignment for every seat should be the status quo on every train, not just those classed as "scenic stock".

 

[Marklund]

This was due to safety reasons from what I heard.

Ahh, the "safety reasons" card.

Yes, those lie flat beds and suites on long haul aircraft must be racking up thousands of casualties a year...

 

[Blindtraveler]

And the ones on the Megabus Gold overnighters must be pritty much certifiable!

This was due to safety reasons from what I heard.

As for the whole tourist train thing, I never knew aligning seats with windows constitutes any train as "scenic stock". If that's the case, you should be able to turn any train into so called "scenic stock".

Exactly, and it should be done, once and only once theres enough caradges, seats, luggage racks and god forbid standing space for the demand already there before you open it up to an influx of extras!

 

[Blindtraveler]

Changing the subject if I may, how are the 158 refurbs going now? Have they started the major stripping, decontamination and refurbishment of the Haymarket units yet?
And what about the 156s?

 

[JohnR]

The ideal enabler would have been a turntable and runaround at Tweedbank...

Perhaps if the line ever pushes a bit further along to reach Melrose then Newton St Boswells there'll be the opportunity to utilise part of the old alignments to Kelso and Hawick to creat a turning loop.

Was in the original spec (at least a runround was) - but cut by TS.

 

[JohnR]

Another few words - managed and "regulated" from London and happened as part of the UK.

I never quite get why those in favour of the Union bring attention to the bad things that have happened whilst in it.

That would be the regulation that one Alex Salmond complained in 2006 were "Gold-Plated" and that would be ditched in an independent Scotland to allow institutions such as RBS and BoS "to thrive and grow"...???

 

[route:oxford]

That would be the regulation that one Alex Salmond complained in 2006 were "Gold-Plated" and that would be ditched in an independent Scotland to allow institutions such as RBS and BoS "to thrive and grow"...???

And who could forget this:-

 

[HH]

I am not sure why you made specific reference and brought attention to where those two people are from then if you weren't trying to link the two matters.

It DOES matter where things are decided. With the Brexit "debate", independence, the rise of populist movements across the globe and other things, where decisions are made and who makes them is at the centre of these issues. You could take it to an extreme and say that Brussels should decide what the UK's immigration policy is if I followed your line of thinking.

1. I was linking to your trying to place the blame for RBS failure on places other than Scotland.

2. It doesn't matter where things are decided; it matters what is decided, because the effect is the same wherever the decision is made. Well, it clearly matters to some people where things are decided, regardless of how illogical that is.

 

[Clansman]

And the ones on the Megabus Gold overnighters must be pritty much certifiable!



Exactly, and it should be done, once and only once theres enough caradges, seats, luggage racks and god forbid standing space for the demand already there before you open it up to an influx of extras!

Ahh, the "safety reasons" card.

Yes, those lie flat beds and suites on long haul aircraft must be racking up thousands of casualties a year...

It would be a great addition to Caledonian Sleeper, and it's a shame how it's not happening.

Would have loved to see it and it would've given Serco a reason to increase seat prices also.