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Scotrail Franchise - Abellio

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Highland37

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There are lots of politics at play, we saw it with Ca lMac. Labour have a habit of wanting , demanding , the process for tendering change.But never doing anything about it when in power, indeed they did not propose changes to the rail franchises in the recent Smith Commission.
Still , we are were we are. I hope we can see a Public Sector bid, we now have a private monopoly replacing public one . And we the taxpayer are still subsidising them.

At least we are now seeing some investment in our railways after years of neglect at the hands of subsequent Governments.
That and the upgrading of the A9 and the new Forth Crossing ( opposed by Labour) maybe there is some light at the end of the tunnel.

Fully agree. Thanks for putting us back on a positive direction.

I am looking forward to the HSTs certainly and commend Abellio for coming up with the idea. It's the best they could do really given the economy and all the uncertainty round Brexit, independence etc. A new fleet will be required sooner rather than later though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-38042891

Good to see quality reporting from the Scotland on Sunday/Scotsman. The picture looks like nowhere in Scotland. Class 350s?

Who said the Scottish press ever had an agenda?
 
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47271

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A pitiful cheapskate effort as usual from The Scotsman, they may as well have got Neil Bibby to write the story for them.

To be fair I think the 350 is in Princes Street Gardens, but is quite definitely not operated by Scotrail. [emoji38]
 

amcluesent

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I notice the SNP politicians have started having pops at Abellio after their secretive £10B wheeze with SinoFortone and China Railway No. 3 Engineering Group fell apart. Coincidence?
 
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oldman

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At least we are now seeing some investment in our railways after years of neglect at the hands of subsequent Governments.

Who started Airdrie-Bathgate and Borders and opened Larkhall? What did the LibLab coalition ever do for us? And around Glasgow quite a lot reopened under the Tories.

PS Do you maybe mean successive?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Today's offering from Humza on the BBC:

Scotland's transport minister is to invite unions and other political parties to talks next week on setting up a public sector train operator.

Humza Yousaf revealed the move after widespread criticism of existing ScotRail services.

He said the contract could be cancelled in 2020 and contingency plans were in place for the Scottish government to take over train services earlier.

Poor Abellio must wonder what they let themselves in for. Do all the heavy lifting and someone else gets to run things when the new stock's in.
 

47271

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Scotland's transport minister is to invite unions and other political parties to talks next week on setting up a public sector train operator.

Groan, so that's at least another three weeks worth of hot air we'll get subjected to on the subject. This is getting very tedious now. Can he not just go away and draw up a plan in silence, and then tell us what it says?

Here's hoping that Yousaf, Bibby, the press and the unions are all planning long breaks over Christmas and New Year, and we can all get on with operating and using the trains for a while without their daily commentary.
 

route:oxford

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Re-nationalisation and the neverendum are all the SNP talk about

That's pretty much it.

Whine, threaten, whine, demand, attack the incoming president of the USA and triple their expenses claims.

The only thing they've managed so far is to nationalise Prestwick Airport to accommodate the two flights a day.
 

Highland37

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That's pretty much it.

Whine, threaten, whine, demand, attack the incoming president of the USA and triple their expenses claims.

The only thing they've managed so far is to nationalise Prestwick Airport to accommodate the two flights a day.

I am starting to realise how poorly informed some posters are on this forum. Do you really think that is all they have done?
 

Butts

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I am starting to realise how poorly informed some posters are on this forum. Do you really think that is all they have done?

How many SNP Politicians did you hear speaking out publicly in favour of Brexit?

Do you not find it strange that within their now overwhelming ranks of MP's, MSP's and MEP's not one single dissenting voice was heard in relation to continued membership of the EU ?

Who within the SNP represents the third of their supporters who expressed a preference to leave by voting to do so in the recent referendum ?
 

Highland37

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How many SNP Politicians did you hear speaking out publicly in favour of Brexit?

Do you not find it strange that within their now overwhelming ranks of MP's, MSP's and MEP's not one single dissenting voice was heard in relation to continued membership of the EU ?

Who within the SNP represents the third of their supporters who expressed a preference to leave by voting to do so in the recent referendum ?

Again I have to ask if you have the faintest idea of what you are talking about. To answer your question, Alex Neil, Gordon Wilson and Jim Sillars to name a few. It been widely reported in the media.

I am no spokesman for the SNP but I can see the huge changes they are making. Some are good, some are bad. A9, GIRFEC, minimum pricing, land reform etc.

It's as if some people are in total denial about what is happening as it doesn't support their world view.
 

Butts

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Again I have to ask if you have the faintest idea of what you are talking about. To answer your question, Alex Neil, Gordon Wilson and Jim Sillars to name a few. It been widely reported in the media.

I am no spokesman for the SNP but I can see the huge changes they are making. Some are good, some are bad. A9, GIRFEC, minimum pricing, land reform etc.

It's as if some people are in total denial about what is happening as it doesn't support their world view.

Wilson and Sillars are not currently in Office and Neil only spoke out after the referendum so I do know what I am talking about :p


Where were all the others ?
 

me123

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Again I have to ask if you have the faintest idea of what you are talking about. To answer your question, Alex Neil, Gordon Wilson and Jim Sillars to name a few. It been widely reported in the media.

I am no spokesman for the SNP but I can see the huge changes they are making. Some are good, some are bad. A9, GIRFEC, minimum pricing, land reform etc.

It's as if some people are in total denial about what is happening as it doesn't support their world view.

It's because the media (particularly South of the border) portrays the Scottish Parliament as a playground, and thinks that Nicola Sturgeon spends her days "plotting" the next twenty referenda.

The reality is that the Scottish Parliament has probably achieved more than Westminster in the past year. What's Theresa May done since becoming PM? I'm struggling to think of anything to be honest.
 

Highland37

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All what others? It might be that they didn't actually want to leave. If you do know what your are talking about, you will know that the SNP is a pro-EU party and that position was consistent throughout the referendum campaign. That doesn't mean that every single person agrees with that position but it was very clear.

I have to say that I am perplexed at some of the posting on here. Many seem to believe that poor Abellio are utterly without fault and are dealing with a contract spec over which they had no control. In a way that is true but in another, untrue. No one forced them to bid and when they won, no one forced them to accept.
 

Carlisle

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I have to say that I am perplexed at some of the posting on here. Many seem to believe that poor Abellio are utterly without fault and are dealing with a contract spec over which they had no control. In a way that is true but in another, untrue. No one forced them to bid and when they won, no one forced them to accept.
Sounds like a TFL style concession would have been a better option here in the first place
 

Sybic26

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Scotrail is run as an Alliance between Abellio and Network Rail.

Also many of delays have been caused by signalling, points and track circuit failures. Other causes of delays or cancellations have been slippery rails and engineering overruns. All of these are Network Rail problems.
 

Butts

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It's because the media (particularly South of the border) portrays the Scottish Parliament as a playground, and thinks that Nicola Sturgeon spends her days "plotting" the next twenty referenda.

The reality is that the Scottish Parliament has probably achieved more than Westminster in the past year. What's Theresa May done since becoming PM? I'm struggling to think of anything to be honest.

I wonder how the "Welsh Media" portrays the Scottish Parliament ? <D

The Scotrail "hounding" is just a convenient diversionary tactic which produces good publicity.

The honest truth is that if they want a more egalitarian society in Scotland they are going to have to start using the tax raising powers available to them and turn to the richest source of revenue, not the rich or the poor, but those in the middle.

A classic example is the recent decision to raise Council Tax in the highest bands whilst leaving the real money spinners in the middle and bottom alone. Apart from the Plod and Water precepts it has not gone up for years so no one could really complain if it had been across the board.

Unfortunately a lot of Nationalists (like all the others) generosity does not extend to a hit on their own wallets. :idea:
 

clc

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That's pretty much it.

Whine, threaten, whine, demand, attack the incoming president of the USA and triple their expenses claims.

The only thing they've managed so far is to nationalise Prestwick Airport to accommodate the two flights a day.

Here are some rail schemes the SNP has funded or is committed to funding:-

Borders Rail
Edinburgh Trams
Waverley Station upgrades
Edinburgh Gateway Station
Haymarket Station Redevelopment
Glasgow Subway Modernisation
New Class 380s
Paisley Corridor Improvements
Glasgow-Edinburgh electrification
Queen St redevelopment
Cumbernauld electrification
Whifflet electrification
Paisley Canal electrification
Dalmarnock Station
Newton Junction
New Hitachi EMUs
Refurbished HSTs
New Sleeper carriages
Aberdeen-Inverness Improvements
Shotts Electrification
Dunblane/Alloa/Stirling electrification
Grangemouth electrification
All the new 'Rail Revolution' services
Airdrie-Bathgate

Have I missed anything?
 

Butts

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Here are some rail schemes the SNP has funded or is committed to funding:-

Borders Rail
Edinburgh Trams
Waverley Station upgrades
Edinburgh Gateway Station
Haymarket Station Redevelopment
Glasgow Subway Modernisation
New Class 380s
Paisley Corridor Improvements
Glasgow-Edinburgh electrification
Queen St redevelopment
Cumbernauld electrification
Whifflet electrification
Paisley Canal electrification
Dalmarnock Station
Newton Junction
New Hitachi EMUs
Refurbished HSTs
New Sleeper carriages
Aberdeen-Inverness Improvements
Shotts Electrification
Dunblane/Alloa/Stirling electrification
Grangemouth electrification
All the new 'Rail Revolution' services
Airdrie-Bathgate

Have I missed anything?

Yes, something really useful like direct Rail Links to Glasgow and Edinburgh Airports :idea:
 

tbtc

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Here are some rail schemes the SNP has funded or is committed to funding:-

...

Edinburgh Trams

...

Paisley Corridor Improvements

I live south of the border these days, so can't remember which schemes were pre-2007 and which were post-2007 commitments (though I certainly can't give the SNP the credit you've given them for the Borders line, since it was a Lib Dem trade off when they are in a coalition administration with Labour at Holyrood). Maybe some of the subsequent downgrading/ single tracking/ delays on the Borders line are things that the SNP could take credit for though?

However, Edinburgh Trams and the Paisley corridor? Are the SNP only responsible for the good bits about these (e.g. not the scrapping of GARL in 2009 which is rather related to the Paisley corridor)?

We've all got political preferences, sure, but I feel a bit uneasy about giving the SNP credit for some of the schemes that they inherited (some of which obviously had problems in subsequently being delivered).
 

Highland37

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I live south of the border these days, so can't remember which schemes were pre-2007 and which were post-2007 commitments (though I certainly can't give the SNP the credit you've given them for the Borders line, since it was a Lib Dem trade off when they are in a coalition administration with Labour at Holyrood). Maybe some of the subsequent downgrading/ single tracking/ delays on the Borders line are things that the SNP could take credit for though?

However, Edinburgh Trams and the Paisley corridor? Are the SNP only responsible for the good bits about these (e.g. not the scrapping of GARL in 2009 which is rather related to the Paisley corridor)?

We've all got political preferences, sure, but I feel a bit uneasy about giving the SNP credit for some of the schemes that they inherited (some of which obviously had problems in subsequently being delivered).

I agree with you but you have to give credit for the delivery as well as the genesis of the idea. One requires the other.

There are two sides to every story but it's clear that some really don't have the faintest idea what they are talking about when it comes to Scottish politics.

Back on track, I like the idea of a public sector operator, however I am concerned that costs may rise a lot or any problems be immediately blamed on the government making delivery even harder. Devil's in the detail.
 

Butts

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Can I just give Abellio a little credit for the Rail Replacement Service that has been operating in the Falkirk Area for what seems like an eternity but is only since September.

I think a lot of people in other parts of Scotland let alone the UK don't realise the extent of the disruption caused by the various engineering works. Indeed for the last few weeks every day except Friday something has been going on.

They have got it down to a fine art now even operating a standby Minibus from Falkirk Grahamston to High in the event the coaches coming from up North have been delayed.

There is to be a months hiatus starting on December 8th and it can't come soon enough for me and thousands of others.

Also in the event of delays an online application secures payment within days.

I can almost forgive them from banning smoking on the open platforms :p
 

Blindtraveler

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Re-nationalisation and the neverendum are all the SNP talk about

This!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That's pretty much it.

Whine, threaten, whine, demand, attack the incoming president of the USA and triple their expenses claims.

The only thing they've managed so far is to nationalise Prestwick Airport to accommodate the two flights a day.

And this!

The above IMO 2 of the best posts on the forum for days.

Now Iv said that Im off to bed, leaving the SNP fanboys to clutter up the thread even more.

As far as Im concerned the 1 trick pony SNP havmt made many or any good decisions where rail or public transport in general are concerned, 2 rail contracts, 2 ferry contracts, one of which will be renewed during the current government all bungled/made a mess of. Lord help us
 

NotATrainspott

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I wonder how the "Welsh Media" portrays the Scottish Parliament ? <D

The Scotrail "hounding" is just a convenient diversionary tactic which produces good publicity.

The honest truth is that if they want a more egalitarian society in Scotland they are going to have to start using the tax raising powers available to them and turn to the richest source of revenue, not the rich or the poor, but those in the middle.

A classic example is the recent decision to raise Council Tax in the highest bands whilst leaving the real money spinners in the middle and bottom alone. Apart from the Plod and Water precepts it has not gone up for years so no one could really complain if it had been across the board.

Unfortunately a lot of Nationalists (like all the others) generosity does not extend to a hit on their own wallets. :idea:

Income tax is only paid by people who have no choice but to trade their labour in return for money, i.e. the working and most of the middle class. The very rich get their income from return on capital (e.g. being a landlord) and if you own your own business, you can do things like paying yourself minimum wage and having your company provide lots of the nice things in your life. All in all, what this means is that income tax alone is fundamentally incapable of causing proper redistributive change. If you whack up the income tax for the highest earners, you encourage them to switch to other forms of income that the tax doesn't cover. If people in Scotland did this, not only would the Scottish Parliament lose the tax revenue that the person managed to avoid paying, but they would lose all of the tax revenue of that individual as the revenues of the taxes they now pay are not devolved. This isn't a political point where one party is right and the other is wrong, this is a statement of fact.

Devolving income tax is a politically devious scheme because most to most voters, income tax is the important tax that actually matters. In the real world there are a whole series of other taxes which can have as much, if not more, of an effect upon redistribution and their own wellbeing. The OECD has actually said that developed countries should start shifting the burden of taxation away from taxes on labour because they are pretty inefficient and cannot ever be fully redistributive. In any case, we're not going to have a lot of choice in the matter because automation is going to wipe out most of the the income tax receipts as significant proportions of the population become unemployable and the rest have a race to the bottom of pay and conditions for what work remains. This is actually already happening with the zero-hours contract and gig economy, and is one of the reasons why we absolutely have to plan a move away from income tax.

Council tax is a property tax and is one of the sorts of taxes which the OECD says that we should start to focus on. One of the main reasons for this is that rich people don't tend to buy worse properties than they can afford just to avoid paying tax. There's no downside to finding a way to avoid or reduce their income tax payments but the downside to not living in the posh bits of Scotland is that, well, they won't be living in the posh bits of Scotland. Evasion is therefore much more limited, so it's actually possible to increase the bands at the top end and actually get that revenue. There's still a way to go though, as the system is still not progressive enough.

The ScotRail franchise is probably as close to being a concession as was possible under the law at the time. The concession model would be a useful halfway house between a private and a public sector operation, since you can avoid the idea of the private company getting the ticket revenues even if its performance is poor. It also avoids the problem of public sector companies where efficiency savings are stopped for political reasons, even if they would have a net benefit to the country as a whole.
 

Butts

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Income tax is only paid by people who have no choice but to trade their labour in return for money, i.e. the working and most of the middle class. The very rich get their income from return on capital (e.g. being a landlord) and if you own your own business, you can do things like paying yourself minimum wage and having your company provide lots of the nice things in your life. All in all, what this means is that income tax alone is fundamentally incapable of causing proper redistributive change. If you whack up the income tax for the highest earners, you encourage them to switch to other forms of income that the tax doesn't cover. If people in Scotland did this, not only would the Scottish Parliament lose the tax revenue that the person managed to avoid paying, but they would lose all of the tax revenue of that individual as the revenues of the taxes they now pay are not devolved. This isn't a political point where one party is right and the other is wrong, this is a statement of fact.

Devolving income tax is a politically devious scheme because most to most voters, income tax is the important tax that actually matters. In the real world there are a whole series of other taxes which can have as much, if not more, of an effect upon redistribution and their own wellbeing. The OECD has actually said that developed countries should start shifting the burden of taxation away from taxes on labour because they are pretty inefficient and cannot ever be fully redistributive. In any case, we're not going to have a lot of choice in the matter because automation is going to wipe out most of the the income tax receipts as significant proportions of the population become unemployable and the rest have a race to the bottom of pay and conditions for what work remains. This is actually already happening with the zero-hours contract and gig economy, and is one of the reasons why we absolutely have to plan a move away from income tax.

Council tax is a property tax and is one of the sorts of taxes which the OECD says that we should start to focus on. One of the main reasons for this is that rich people don't tend to buy worse properties than they can afford just to avoid paying tax. There's no downside to finding a way to avoid or reduce their income tax payments but the downside to not living in the posh bits of Scotland is that, well, they won't be living in the posh bits of Scotland. Evasion is therefore much more limited, so it's actually possible to increase the bands at the top end and actually get that revenue. There's still a way to go though, as the system is still not progressive enough.

The ScotRail franchise is probably as close to being a concession as was possible under the law at the time. The concession model would be a useful halfway house between a private and a public sector operation, since you can avoid the idea of the private company getting the ticket revenues even if its performance is poor. It also avoids the problem of public sector companies where efficiency savings are stopped for political reasons, even if they would have a net benefit to the country as a whole.

Your thesis is all very laudable and in time we may move towards a more progressive and egilatarian society.

However as I'm sure you are aware the vast majority of the Governments income comes from three sources -

Income Tax 170 Billion 2015/16 forecast

National Insurance 115 Billion 2015/16 forecast

Value Added Tax 133 Billion 2015/16 forecast

If we really want to make things better for the poor, in the short term at least, their fellow citizens are going to have to pay higher taxes and possibly suffer a reduction in their standard of living.

My contention to you is that most people are not prepared to do this. If they were it could be could be sorted out very quickly.

Everyone sympathises with the poor but thinks that someone else should foot the bill to improve their lot.

Lets cut the bull**** and be honest about it :idea:
 

Highland37

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This!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


And this!

The above IMO 2 of the best posts on the forum for days.

Now Iv said that Im off to bed, leaving the SNP fanboys to clutter up the thread even more.

As far as Im concerned the 1 trick pony SNP havmt made many or any good decisions where rail or public transport in general are concerned, 2 rail contracts, 2 ferry contracts, one of which will be renewed during the current government all bungled/made a mess of. Lord help us

So you consider the decision to award contracts to Ferguson's for two new ferries a bad decision? Try living in Uist and explaining that one.

Or the ordering of the 385s also a bad decision and the first refusal clause in the contract bad?
 

Blindtraveler

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Why do you think they were all bungled?

The public transport system in Scotland is on a race to the bottom IMO.

Northlink:
let in 29012 to the lowest bidder who knew little about rural lifeline ferry services and a lot about cost cutting and fancy marketing. The result is a service which is less reliable than it used to be, charging more for onboard services, spending less on staff and ship overhauls and spending a lot on attracting vast numbers of tourists who in high season make it harder for locals to get vehicle and cabbin space and all yar round have contributed to worse service. The other bids were far stronger but more expensive.

Sleapers:
repeat as above, tourists take priority and costs have risen sharply.

Calmac:
only kept the western isles runs IMO as the staff their had seen the mess and industrial breakdowns at Northlink and came out in sympathy, taking the public with them in a bid to avoid sercoisation.

Scotrail:
too much to do, too little time and this would have been the same whoever ran it but some may have coped better than others.
 

380101

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So you consider the decision to award contracts to Ferguson's for two new ferries a bad decision?

That decision was a good one in the fact it gave a business that was pretty much dead and buried a new future. It also gave the First Minister another chance to look good and say "hey, look at us, we saved another Scottish business". I wholly applaud their efforts to keep work in Scotland, but only if it is cost effective. I very much doubt Fergusons bid was the most cost effective but it was a good way to make the government look good. This I imagine would have been the case whoever was in power, so it's not another SNPBAD comment.

CalMac only retained the western Isles contract because of effective union and press lobbying. Serco were a dead cert for it as they would have offered the lowest cost bid like they did for the North link services and the Caledonian Sleepers.

The SNP have some good socialist policies but are very much a party that favours big business. The Ineos situation a couple of years ago is testament to this. As is their views on fracking - they don't seem keen (in public anyway) but are more than happy for Ineos to receive shipments of shale gas from the US as the fracking happened a long way away.

The SNP have a long way to go to convince me they are a socialist party. I see people day after day who went to University thanks to the free tuition and who are now saddled with thousands of pounds of student debt and no chance of ever paying it off. This is a policy that appears great but leaves poorer students even poorer at the end of their degrees. Kids from well off backgrounds benefit far more from the free tuition as their parents are able to support them through uni. I don't think uni is only for the rich, but the amount of degrees available now that offer next to no prospect of a job is shocking.

Labour lost their way after John Smith passed away and will take decades to get back to where they were.

The SNP are making a good job out of a bad set of circumstances outwith their control when it comes to ScotRail in terms of franchise regulations. But, they need to stop the constant almost daily attacks on ScotRail and let them get on with delivering on their franchise commitments. As I said earlier in this thread, 2018 will be when we see the real changes - all within the time line laid out by TS.
 
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