Scotrail Franchise - Abellio

[47271]

I wasn't suggesting that it was unbelievable that Scotland on Sunday would want to run a piece on skip stopping, maybe on page 26 or somewhere. It's unbelievable that it should have become the main front page story.

Anyway, try and get into the Dominic Booth pieces in The Herald, they raise the standard of the debate a little.

 

[takno]

Almost nothing the Scotsman does is unbelievable anymore. It seems to be pretty much 4 people stuck in an office block in the middle of nowhere pursuing random vendettas.

 

[ld0595]

I was going to post in this thread, but it was locked so I hope this is the best option!

I haven't seen anything else about this, but it seems that the start of the expansion of services have started first reported here in 2016. From the May timetable change, Edinburgh to Dundee services will be extended to Arbroath giving Broughty Ferry, Carnoustie and Monifieth an hourly service. Looking through, it also seems to show which services may be diagrammed for an HST (see here for an example where the timing is for a Diesel locomotive, trailing load 324 tonnes) - although I guess this must be taken with a pinch of salt!

It also seems like there is a new hourly Aberdeen to Montrose service which I presume will be extended to Inverurie once the line is redoubled but no sign of the proposed Dundee to Glasgow stopper and the new Inverness to Elgin stopper yet.

 

[47271]

I won't quote the whole story because it's lengthy and features the usual commentary from Jackie Baillie, the TSSA etc, but this doesn't look great.

Does anyone have additional context?

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...ssengers_sees_ScotRail_fined_a_record_amount/

RAIL passengers misery has been laid bare after ScotRail has received record fines for failing to meet required standards for the running of the nation’s trains and stations.

The firm has clocked up £3 million in financial penalties over the first nine months of this financial year for its failings, having posted a £3.5m after-tax loss for 2016.

That is double the financial penalties imposed on them for the whole of the previous year.

The ScotRail report card shows Abellio which runs the franchise failed to reach the required standards in service to the public in 26 benchmarking areas out of 34.

 

[Failed Unit]

I guess the lengthy list of short formations is hitting them in the pocket. I have seen people comment on certain trains. “Tell us when it is the correct length”. Or “what use is telling us the electric trains are 7 cars they don’t stop at my station”. Skip stopping is a part cancellation.

Interest what % are directly in the TOCs control. I get the impression most. Although can they be blamed about the 385 problems?

 

[marks87]

There's a Panorama-style investigation programme on BBC1 Scotland tonight which, from trailers, seems to focus specifically on ScotRail:

Mind the Gap: Are Scotland's Trains Fit for the 21st Century
Ian Hamilton goes on a journey of discovery along some of Scotland's urban and rural rail services to find out if they are on the right track to meet growing customer demand. Along the way he hears from commuters on a range of issues that affect their travel experience on a daily basis, including ease of access, overcrowding and punctuality. He also examines the track record of initiatives such as the opening of the rail link between the Borders and Edinburgh and hears how infrastructure improvements are in the pipeline for parts of the north east network. In Newcastle, he checks on the progress of the manufacture of new rolling stock and catches up with transport minister Humza Yousaf.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09t08b0

 

[InOban]

And of course posters South of the border will be able to find it on iPlayer afterwards.

 

[GusB]

And of course posters South of the border will be able to find it on iPlayer afterwards.

It's a bit late now, but it is possible to watch live programmes from other regions by changing the settings in iPlayer, as long as you remember to change back afterwards. (Or use a private browsing sessions for a one-off)

 

[JohnR]

Didnt see it myself, but feedback suggests that it may not have been 100% accurate....

 

[Altnabreac]

Didnt see it myself, but feedback suggests that it may not have been 100% accurate....

It wasn't the worst programme ever but it was just very vague.

A sample section is the bit on Levenmouth where they went and stood in the middle of the track (at Cameron Bridge?) and the campaigners say "The tracks here already it could open tomorrow" and this is accepted uncritically with no discussion of what work is needed, potential costs, benefits, funding sources, service patterns, capacity pressures etc.

At Levenmouth there is a discussion needed about how we fund schemes which are too big for Local Authorities to take on but which are not truly National Strategic requirements. I'd have loved to see some discussion of those themes and how the money for the reopening can be secured but we just got some fairly pointless soundbites. Not the campaigners fault, their job is to be positive about their re-opening but thought it was really rather a lightweight pseudo travelogue rather than a forensic analysis of Rail policy.

 

[JohnR]

It wasn't the worst programme ever but it was just very vague.

A sample section is the bit on Levenmouth where they went and stood in the middle of the track (at Cameron Bridge?) and the campaigners say "The tracks here already it could open tomorrow" and this is accepted uncritically with no discussion of what work is needed, potential costs, benefits, funding sources, service patterns, capacity pressures etc.

At Levenmouth there is a discussion needed about how we fund schemes which are too big for Local Authorities to take on but which are not truly National Strategic requirements. I'd have loved to see some discussion of those themes and how the money for the reopening can be secured but we just got some fairly pointless soundbites. Not the campaigners fault, their job is to be positive about their re-opening but thought it was really rather a lightweight pseudo travelogue rather than a forensic analysis of Rail policy.

Thats a big issue I think - councils cant even afford to progress studies through to GRIP 3. Yet the Government wont help, saying that these projects are to be locally led. Was it only last week in the parliament we heard that doubling the track on a branch to increase service levels was a matter for the council to study (and fund)?

 

[Altnabreac]

Thats a big issue I think - councils cant even afford to progress studies through to GRIP 3. Yet the Government wont help, saying that these projects are to be locally led. Was it only last week in the parliament we heard that doubling the track on a branch to increase service levels was a matter for the council to study (and fund)?

I think there is more effort from Transport Scotland to get LAs, Regional Transport Authorities and campaign groups, to lead on commissioning these sort of studies but to be fair there has just been a £2m fund announced to help pay for these sort of studies
https://www.transport.gov.scot/news/rail-pipeline-fund-announced-to-support-local-initiatives/

 

[cf111]

How long before the unrefurbished 158s are gone? Just boarded one at Perth and it is really, really manky. The seats are awful.

 

[mcmad]

Be thankful you had a train to board given the short formed and missing services in the central belt. Once again the fife circle and Dunblane/Alloa services are the poor relations and get sacrificed at the first hint of trouble or weather

 

[Mingulay]

Be thankful you had a train to board given the short formed and missing services in the central belt. Once again the fife circle and Dunblane/Alloa services are the poor relations and get sacrificed at the first hint of trouble or weather

I can vouch for that. The Dunblane service is slower and less reliable than at any time in my 20 years of commuting to Edinburgh. I will be keen to hear from those on here if I can expect a robust and timeous service this year or is it always jam tomorrow. Abellio are either unlucky or incompetent in my humble opinion. You don't want either running our railway. The on board staff are great. They show empathy and with humour help us get thru the misery of rail travel on this route. Abellio can't even source on board ticket machines that work reliably . Trains are dirty and they can't even get the seats clean. Basic stuff

I would anticipate any more bad news on delays to new trains which I am sure is weeks away will spell the end for the current management team.

Bad choice for Scotland by Scottish gov.

 

[47271]

During the artificial Scotrail 'crisis' of late 2016/early 2017, amply documented in this thread, I was always ready to defend Abellio since in my personal experience the service delivered by them was precisely no better or worse than what we got from First.

A year later I'm becoming less tolerant. There's just so many things going wrong and, as Mingulay says, maybe they've just been unlucky. But that's an awful lot of bad luck they've been having, the 385s being the unluckiest of all.

No good reason has been put forward for a big decline in SQUIRE scores, so that makes me wonder and, yes, I agree that I think even recently refurbished trains are dirtier now than they were a year ago. And that weird business they had where they started to kit out 380s for First Class on the E&G and then changed their minds - small in the overall scheme of things but quite indicative of a lack of grip.

We'll see, but it doesn't really doesn't feel great at the moment.

I agree that the public facing staff continue to be excellent.

 

[Mingulay]

During the artificial Scotrail 'crisis' of late 2016/early 2017, amply documented in this thread, I was always ready to defend Abellio since in my personal experience the service delivered by them was precisely no better or worse than what we got from First.

A year later I'm becoming less tolerant. There's just so many things going wrong and, as Mingulay says, maybe they've just been unlucky. But that's an awful lot of bad luck they've been having, the 385s being the unluckiest of all.

No good reason has been put forward for a big decline in SQUIRE scores, so that makes me wonder and, yes, I agree that I think even recently refurbished trains are dirtier now than they were a year ago. And that weird business they had where they started to kit out 380s for First Class on the E&G and then changed their minds - small in the overall scheme of things but quite indicative of a lack of grip.

We'll see, but it doesn't really doesn't feel great at the moment.

I agree that the public facing staff continue to be excellent.

The lack of honesty or perhaps accuracy in the performance figures on the Dunblane service and I suspect on other services is in my view an indication we have a train operator and transport Scotland firmly in the Dock together

I have recorded my rail use over 2 months accurately. I take the arrival time as the point the train arrives at the platform which is the only measure of arrival. It seems ScotRail and transport Scotland use another criteria. ?

My accurate statistics provided to ScotRail and transport Scotland reveal. Of 63 train journeys. Just 8 were on time. 25 within 5mins late. That's 40 percent. Scotrail claim it's circa 90 percent. 60 percent of my trains are cancelled or more than 5 mins late. That's even allowing for the massaging of the timetable which adds another 4 mins between Bridge of Allen and Dunblane on the return leg compared to outward. So they build in more mins to distort the stats. Scotrail performance criteria are apparently the same as in the U.K. Well given the state of public satisfaction of rail performance in the U.K. Hardly a bench mark to follow.

158 refurb are welcome but flakey. Seat cushions detaching already heating still seems unchanged ?

But they just don't know what clean should look like. Traveling public don't help with the littering. But for heavens sake. Get rid of the metro newspaper. Just abandoned rubbish. !

No response to my findings from scotrail. I was assured a detailed reply , transport Scotland reply in technical jargon and fail to answer the points. They even seem unaware the on board ticket machines don't work well. I wonder if they ever use a train to be honest !

 

[NotATrainspott]

Bad choice for Scotland by Scottish gov.

The Scottish Government didn't 'chose' Abellio. The Scottish Government set out an Invitation to Tender document which set out various requirements for the new franchise, and the way in which bids would be judged. Various companies submitted bids, and Abellio's scored the highest according to the process laid out in the ITT. At that point, the Scottish Government have essentially no choice but to award it to Abellio. If they didn't, they would open themselves up to legal action, and they would lose.

Abellio wasn't even the cheapest bidder. National Express bid less, but Abellio had the highest bid quality score of anyone and this was enough to overcome coming second in the financial stakes. Again, this was only because the ITT process had set out the bid scoring mechanism and explained how quality accounted for a significant percentage of the overall score.

These things are really, really hard. On one level, you want to have as ambitious a programme for the railway in Scotland as possible. On the other, that ambition involves risks. It would be very easy for the Scottish Government to get a franchise which was bang-on guaranteed to run reliably all the time, but only by artificially restricting the capability of the railway. Is it better to have a superior service 90% of the time or a middling service 100% of the time?

 

[Mingulay]

The Scottish Government didn't 'chose' Abellio. The Scottish Government set out an Invitation to Tender document which set out various requirements for the new franchise, and the way in which bids would be judged. Various companies submitted bids, and Abellio's scored the highest according to the process laid out in the ITT. At that point, the Scottish Government have essentially no choice but to award it to Abellio. If they didn't, they would open themselves up to legal action, and they would lose.

Abellio wasn't even the cheapest bidder. National Express bid less, but Abellio had the highest bid quality score of anyone and this was enough to overcome coming second in the financial stakes. Again, this was only because the ITT process had set out the bid scoring mechanism and explained how quality accounted for a significant percentage of the overall score.

These things are really, really hard. On one level, you want to have as ambitious a programme for the railway in Scotland as possible. On the other, that ambition involves risks. It would be very easy for the Scottish Government to get a franchise which was bang-on guaranteed to run reliably all the time, but only by artificially restricting the capability of the railway. Is it better to have a superior service 90% of the time or a middling service 100% of the time?

I would happy with either. Given 60% of my trains used are more than 5 mins late or cancelled altogether. Leaving aside short formed dirty trains. If that does not reflect badly on Abellio I don't know what does ? Clearly the contract scot gov entered into with the operator left too much wriggle room for failure and poor service to remain unchecked.

 

[170401]

That's even allowing for the massaging of the timetable which adds another 4 mins between Bridge of Allen and Dunblane on the return leg compared to outward. So they build in more mins to distort the stats.

The additional pathing time Northbound between Bridge of Allan and Dunblane has nothing to do with massaging figures. Its in there because of the signalling arrangements at Dunblane station, something that does not affect Southbound journeys.

Secondary to that their is a huge factor between those stations that has a major effect on performance, its called gravity! Keep an eye on performance of the train next time you travel, and also take note of the near stop before you reach Dunblane on a terminator, this is said signalling arrangements in action keeping your train safe.

 

[Mingulay]

The additional pathing time Northbound between Bridge of Allan and Dunblane has nothing to do with massaging figures. Its in there because of the signalling arrangements at Dunblane station, something that does not affect Southbound journeys.

Secondary to that their is a huge factor between those stations that has a major effect on performance, its called gravity! Keep an eye on performance of the train next time you travel, and also take note of the near stop before you reach Dunblane on a terminator, this is said signalling arrangements in action keeping your train safe.

Thank you for that explanation. I am aware of the gradient. I time the difference in journey time to be typically no more than 1 or 1.5 mins northbound . Rarely held at a signal on the approach to Dunblane. But I can tell you a train can be or is usually 8mins late at Bridge of Allen but given the generous additional time it can arrive under 5 mins late in Dunblane which Scotrail claim is on time. Convenient. As I have said before. On board train staff do a great job in keeping us long suffering commuters sane wth humour and empathy. But I remain convinced the performance stats and timed arrivals do not reflect reality. The reaction from Rob Shorthouse in a meeting I had with him in 2016 was so hostile to this accusation it confirmed to me it was a sensitive matter and not one for discussion. It's almost there are 2 timetables. The published on and the one train staff tacitly work to

 

[170401]

Thank you for that explanation. I am aware of the gradient. I time the difference in journey time to be typically no more than 1 or 1.5 mins northbound . Rarely held at a signal on the approach to Dunblane. But I can tell you a train can be or is usually 8mins late at Bridge of Allen but given the generous additional time it can arrive under 5 mins late in Dunblane which Scotrail claim is on time. Convenient. As I have said before. On board train staff do a great job in keeping us long suffering commuters sane wth humour and empathy. But I remain convinced the performance stats and timed arrivals do not reflect reality. The reaction from Rob Shorthouse in a meeting I had with him in 2016 was so hostile to this accusation it confirmed to me it was a sensitive matter and not one for discussion. It's almost there are 2 timetables. The published on and the one train staff tacitly work to

It is a genuine coincidence. Yes in normal practice trains may well be quicker than that planned on paper but that does not necsessarily follow that timetable planners can cut corners in safety overlaps, signalling arrangements and expected train performance.

Pathing time for signalling/junctions is nothing new and not unique to Dunblane. Another example on this route is Larbert - Camelon. Next time you travel, you may observe the extra minute often sat out at these stations, again down to extra pathing time due to the junctions/signalling. It is what it is, dont expect it to change anytime soon.

 

[Mingulay]

It is a genuine coincidence. Yes in normal practice trains may well be quicker than that planned on paper but that does not necsessarily follow that timetable planners can cut corners in safety overlaps, signalling arrangements and expected train performance.

Pathing time for signalling/junctions is nothing new and not unique to Dunblane. Another example on this route is Larbert - Camelon. Next time you travel, you may observe the extra minute often sat out at these stations, again down to extra pathing time due to the junctions/signalling. It is what it is, dont expect it to change anytime soon.

I do accept your informed confirmation it is a coincidence . But a happy coincidence for Scotrail as with out it, they would be scoring worse than the 60% of my train journeys recorded that have been delayed more than 5 mins or cancelled, be nearer 75% of trains more than 5 mins late!!

This week has started well. Usual 10 min late yesterday am 20 mins delay today . "track circuit failure due to Winchburgh Tunnel flooding" . Did Network rail do any flood prevention work when the last major works were done ? Journey home looks like another grim experience . Is this going to be a recurring winter problem year in year out ?

 

[170401]

I do accept your informed confirmation it is a coincidence . But a happy coincidence for Scotrail as with out it, they would be scoring worse than the 60% of my train journeys recorded that have been delayed more than 5 mins or cancelled, be nearer 75% of trains more than 5 mins late!!

This week has started well. Usual 10 min late yesterday am 20 mins delay today . "track circuit failure due to Winchburgh Tunnel flooding" . Did Network rail do any flood prevention work when the last major works were done ? Journey home looks like another grim experience . Is this going to be a recurring winter problem year in year out ?

Again this is another misunderstanding. The tunnel itself rarely (if ever) floods. Its usually the cutting around the junction or the Niddry burn that cause the issues. I dont know the fundamental reasons for it other than the obvious huge amounts of water overwhelming the systems in place. I do know that NR has spent vast sums of money in the area in recent years and flooding incidences are far fewer now than in the previous decades (see also Croy cuttimg which suffered just as much in previous decades).
I have been told in the past the only way to cure Winchburgh flooding completely is to build a new route, not something thats going to happen anytime soon Im afraid.

 

[Altnabreac]

Again this is another misunderstanding. The tunnel itself rarely (if ever) floods. Its usually the cutting around the junction or the Niddry burn that cause the issues. I dont know the fundamental reasons for it other than the obvious huge amounts of water overwhelming the systems in place. I do know that NR has spent vast sums of money in the area in recent years and flooding incidences are far fewer now than in the previous decades (see also Croy cuttimg which suffered just as much in previous decades).
I have been told in the past the only way to cure Winchburgh flooding completely is to build a new route, not something thats going to happen anytime soon Im afraid.

I believe one of the fundamental issues at Winchburgh is that the default water level in the neighbouring quarry / pond is higher than the track level in the cutting so constant pumping is required. Thequarry is outwith the land controlled by Network Rail so there's not a huge amount they can do about it but I believe it is being looked at as part of the masterplanning of Winchburgh in future.

You can see it here:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.9...4!1seKt-PKYvA6m_jikgVLGPrQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

[Mingulay]

Again this is another misunderstanding. The tunnel itself rarely (if ever) floods. Its usually the cutting around the junction or the Niddry burn that cause the issues. I dont know the fundamental reasons for it other than the obvious huge amounts of water overwhelming the systems in place. I do know that NR has spent vast sums of money in the area in recent years and flooding incidences are far fewer now than in the previous decades (see also Croy cuttimg which suffered just as much in previous decades).
I have been told in the past the only way to cure Winchburgh flooding completely is to build a new route, not something thats going to happen anytime soon Im afraid.

Thank you for clarifying the "flooding" , but it is what train crews and station staff routinely say in reference to the problem, so forgive me . Either way it sounds like new trains, or no new trains , signalling woes are here to stay. Sounds like this may have been a better investment to have a robust line rather than new trains, ever at the mercy of a weak link ready to fail on the countries main and vital arterial rail route ! I guess its fair to say we cant blame Hitachi for that ??!!

 

[170401]

Thank you for clarifying the "flooding" , but it is what train crews and station staff routinely say in reference to the problem, so forgive me . Either way it sounds like new trains, or no new trains , signalling woes are here to stay. Sounds like this may have been a better investment to have a robust line rather than new trains, ever at the mercy of a weak link ready to fail on the countries main and vital arterial rail route ! I guess its fair to say we cant blame Hitachi for that ??!!

We certainly cannot! In the grand scheme of things it comes down to politics, as do most railway problems. How much is Holyrood willing to spend on the issues?

 

[DuncanS]

I believe one of the fundamental issues at Winchburgh is that the default water level in the neighbouring quarry / pond is higher than the track level in the cutting so constant pumping is required. Thequarry is outwith the land controlled by Network Rail so there's not a huge amount they can do about it but I believe it is being looked at as part of the masterplanning of Winchburgh in future.

You can see it here:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.9...4!1seKt-PKYvA6m_jikgVLGPrQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Indeed - you can see from the train that you are running below the water next to the track.

And why it is annoying that Winchburgh floods - this is as a result of a once in a decade snowfall being followed up with a lot of rain and I'd say its different circumstances to the normal flooding they have there.

 

[Mingulay]

We certainly cannot! In the grand scheme of things it comes down to politics, as do most railway problems. How much is Holyrood willing to spend on the issues?

As anticipated. With most Dunblane services around peak travel cancelled there was the predictable pressure on the odd service running. How do Abellio respond. Predictably with just 2 clapped out 158s. Atrocious overcrowding conditions and long delays at stations. Good work by guard empathetic about a service not fit for paying passengers. Just can't see how any self respecting managing director can fail to act or be forced to act You can't charge full fares for a dismal service. Emergency timetable equals Emergency fares. 50% discount seems about right till the new trains arrive.

 

[kkong]

It is a genuine coincidence. Yes in normal practice trains may well be quicker than that planned on paper but that does not necsessarily follow that timetable planners can cut corners in safety overlaps, signalling arrangements and expected train performance.

Of course there is "recovery time" added to timetables between the penultimate and final stops.

An example is Aberdeen to/from the South.

Timetabled for 16-17 minutes Aberdeen-Stonehaven yet it is timetabled for (but doesn't actually take) 20-23 minutes the other way.

I know there are gradients, but the extra time is almost all there just to pad the timetable.