ScotRail Facebook - stranded teenager

[s2345]

https://www.facebook.com/ScotRail/posts/580206132003434

The seems to be the latest 'viral' post on ScotRail's Facebook page. With more and more trains being internet enabled for passenger use (I know this one won't have been), is it time to look for an upgrade to Avantix and the associated equipment to something that appears to passengers as being from 2013 rather than 2002? I've always thought that the whole Visa Electron situation is one that is particularly poorly known about generally - it's information that I've only ever heard communicated verbally, and usually by that point it's too late.

On the actual incident it's difficult to say very much given how one-sided the account is, if taken on face-value then it wasn't handled well by the guard. Given the time of day, the location and weather conditions at the moment I would have thought it sensible for any single teenage female to be at least given the benefit of the doubt in reasonably plausible situations after card payment has failed. I'm not sure what ScotRail's policies are on UFN's but I would have thought this was a better course of action. If it was fairly late the train wouldn't have been packed. I've been the only one in the carriage on similar services.

I'll post the text from the Facebook post below incase anyone can't access it. There is some additional comments from the poster in the initial comments.

thanks scotrail for leaving my teenage daughter stranded and alone and vulnerable at Dunfermline station last night due to the jobsworth conductor who wouldn't let her stay on the train to cardenden...apparently and unbeknown to me your machines do not accept visa electron cards so my daughter couldn't make her payment to the conductor, she explained that she had no other money but that her mother ie me would meet her at cardenden and could give him the money, he refused this offer and said she had to get off at Dunfermline and he would "make sure she got off" sorry but where does commen sense and compassion come in and what do staff think they are playing at by throwing a young, travelling alone girl off the train on a dark winters night!!!! absolutely furious... my daughter phoned me in tears and was so stressed about it I was worried it would bring on a seizure (she has epilepsy). I will be making a formal complaint but wanted to share my displeasure and disgust at the approach taken by this man

 

[Ferret]

If that's true, there's a Conductor in for a meeting without tea and biscuits there. Ok, we only have one side of the story, but you cannot put young ladies off late at night without having a good reason, and a ticketing matter certainly is not such a good reason. Nailed on UFN, or possibly a TIR if there were ticket-issuing facilities at the point of origin/you don't have time to do a UFN.

 

[6Gman]

If that's true, there's a Conductor in for a meeting without tea and biscuits there. Ok, we only have one side of the story, but you cannot put young ladies off late at night without having a good reason, and a ticketing matter certainly is not such a good reason. Nailed on UFN, or possibly a TIR if there were ticket-issuing facilities at the point of origin/you don't have time to do a UFN.

What about young men? Or older people?

[Not being funny - but surely the rules are applicable to everyone regardless of age or gender?]

 

[CC 72100]

If that's true, there's a Conductor in for a meeting without tea and biscuits there. Ok, we only have one side of the story, but you cannot put young ladies off late at night without having a good reason, and a ticketing matter certainly is not such a good reason. Nailed on UFN, or possibly a TIR if there were ticket-issuing facilities at the point of origin/you don't have time to do a UFN.

~Playing Devil's advocate here...~

Would it be a different situation if it was a young, single-travelling (not intoxicated!) male?

EDIT: I see 6Gman has had the same thought as me!

 

[michael769]

Oh dear.

If said passenger boarded at an unmanned station I have a feeling the head of Scotrail will be having tea and biscuits with Transport Scotland.

Yet another example of why the industry needs to get its act together and privide its staff with kit that is fit for purpose.

 

[Asian Demon]

As a Guard I'd have to agree it's somewhat heavy handed (even more so at night). I won't de-train someone at night under any circumstances. I know that the avantix machines are just dire. More so the Pin pads (all types), which are not fit for purpose for ticket issue. This could be resolved over night if the industry could be bothered to invest in new equipment but no company will, especially with franchises which are either ended or being extended constantly on a regular basis.

I am now going to play devils advocate. I have many passengers who are regular users of the services we provide. Every day they board the same trains, provide the same card for payment and know that their cards will not work. This is my own personal experience. Because there may be only 2-4 minutes between each stop, there is very little that can be done in such a small amount of time especially if they are getting off at the next stop (The so called one stop wonders). Obviously this was not so much the case here but there is an argument that Guards are getting sick and tired of people who do this on a daily basis and may be hardening their outlook on how they see passengers who automatically provide cards that may not work. It's unfair on those passengers who are genuine but it's been known to happen.

I'm curious as to where this girl boarded from? I'm unfamiliar with scotrail stations and ticketing facilities. If it was a station with a ticket office or a ticket machine was available, I'd be somewhat less inclined to sympathise. I am always advising passengers to purchase at the station if it has a ticket office or machine if only because I feel it saves bother on board trains. Most passengers seem quite happy to be advised this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What about young men? Or older people?

[Not being funny - but surely the rules are applicable to everyone regardless of age or gender?]

You'd think that but it comes down to so called vulnerability (or so I keep being told. Duty of care being the other one). Saying that I treat everyone equal. At night I will not de train someone. And never at an unmanned station (although the temptation has existed for certain members of the public who are less than pleasant. Request stop anyone? )

 

[jnjkerbin]

Obviously, we have very little detail. Was it the last train? Was the girl in anyway abusive to the guard when the card was refused?

Personally, I'm going to ignore the fact that the girl was epileptic in this case. How was the guard meant to know? Obviously, if the sole reason she was kicked off was because the card was refused then yes, questions do need to be asked, but with the limited details, it isn't really possible to come to a conclusion.

If the girl was abusive and it wasn't the last train then, in the circumstances, I could understand it but if it really is as the facebook post seems to suggest then someone needs to act.

However, it may have been yet another drunken teenager having a brawl with the guard or it may have been a huge over-rection by him. We don't know and so, as with every story we hear, we shouldn't judge anyone without proper evidence.

No further comments.

 

[Asian Demon]

Obviously, we have very little detail. Was it the last train? Was the girl in anyway abusive to the guard when the card was refused?

Personally, I'm going to ignore the fact that the girl was epileptic in this case. How was the guard meant to know? Obviously, if the sole reason she was kicked off was because the card was refused then yes, questions do need to be asked, but with the limited details, it isn't really possible to come to a conclusion.

If the girl was abusive and it wasn't the last train then, in the circumstances, I could understand it but if it really is as the facebook post seems to suggest then someone needs to act.

However, it may have been yet another drunken teenager having a brawl with the guard or it may have been a huge over-rection by him. We don't know and so, as with every story we hear, we shouldn't judge anyone without proper evidence.

No further comments.

The only reason the epileptic issue can't be ignored is because the guard not knowing is not an excuse. Take your victim as you find him. It means we have to treat everyone with kiddy gloves. We have to treat everyone as vulnerable because in a court of law, the law will not care that you didn't know.

 

[Ferret]

What about young men? Or older people?

[Not being funny - but surely the rules are applicable to everyone regardless of age or gender?]

I can't disagree. I won't put anybody off for not paying their fare anyway as I've said in another thread, whatever their gender. My point was that if the facts resemble the Faceache post, this was doubly unwise because the person concerned was possibly left in a vulnerable situation.

Still, there may be another side to the story, we don't know!


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yet another example of why the industry needs to get its act together and privide its staff with kit that is fit for purpose.

With respect, it's a little harder on trains to get the direct link to the bank required for an Electron card to work. I'd rather focus my ire on the lax attitude to ticket office opening I think!

 

[michael769]

With respect, it's a little harder on trains to get the direct link to the bank required for an Electron card to work. I'd rather focus my ire on the lax attitude to ticket office opening I think!

I don't accept that as an excuse. I agree that GSM/3G terminals will not help if they cannot get reception, but many miles of rail has perfectly good reception (including Dunfermline, which I know from local experience) using them would still significantly improve matters.

I do agree that improving station ticket selling availability would have a greater impact.

 

[Jatos]

This is bad, I do feel train companies should be under an obligation to accept Solo (if that still exists?) and Visa Electron, especially when they are on lines with in more isolated areas and even more so ones with without ticket offices.

I feel sorry for the girl tbh, from what I can see. The big man case makes me disinclined to think ScotRail acted fairly also.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I tell you something else, anyone ever heard of girls getting raped after been refused travel? I have... fortunately this girl did not by the sounds of it come to any harm, but what if she had. That conductor deserves to be in hot water.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Visa Electron cards won't work in some ticket offices or TVMs either, as I have found out.

 

[swj99]

I know that the avantix machines are just dire. More so the Pin pads (all types), which are not fit for purpose for ticket issue. This could be resolved over night if the industry could be bothered to invest in new equipment but no company will.......

Absolutely right.

TOCs can't have it both ways. They need to either make it possible for passengers to purchase tickets, or accept that situations such as this one will arise, and that as a result, they will continue to look like twunts and lose whatever credibility that might remain.

 

[Ferret]

This is bad, I do feel train companies should be under an obligation to accept Solo (if that still exists?) and Visa Electron, especially when they are on lines with in more isolated areas and even more so ones with without ticket offices.

Easier said than done, as you'd know if you'd read earlier posts!

On the flip side of my criticism of Scotrail here is that one of the more prevalent fare dodges is to present an Electron card that the holder knows can't be accepted. That's not to exonerate the possibly guilty party here, but it does add a little perspective. Oh, and do they accept Electron on the buses? I doubt it, but I bet they accept cash....

 

[michael769]

Oh, and do they accept Electron on the buses? I doubt it, but I bet they accept cash....

Do bus operators publicly advertise that they accept major credit and debit cards?

 

[thelongestroad]

I think it's fare (if you'll pardon the pun) that Avantix needs updating. Mobile payments are or at the very least have the capability to be more sophisticated these days.

Where there is will there is a way. But we got no will...

 

[Ferret]

Do bus operators publicly advertise that they accept major credit and debit cards?

Teehee, if you're quick, you'll just be in time to see my point go flying over your head and land behind you! Whooooosh!

The point was, whatever happened to carrying a few pounds for a local journey? What are you going to do if you miss the last train, and need to take a bus or a taxi?!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think it's fare (if you'll pardon the pun) that Avantix needs updating. Mobile payments are or at the very least have the capability to be more sophisticated these days.

Where there is will there is a way. But we got no will...

Hmmmm, it'll need an improvement to wireless connections so that there is 100% coverage everywhere in the Country for on-train staff to accept 'electronic use only' cards. 'We got no will' because there are better things to spend money on right now I suppose.

 

[IanXC]

Hmmmm, it'll need an improvement to wireless connections so that there is 100% coverage everywhere in the Country for on-train staff to accept 'electronic use only' cards. 'We got no will' because there are better things to spend money on right now I suppose.

Whilst I suspect Intercity TOCs don't suffer this problem as much as Regional operators, I wonder whether the wifi fitted for passenger use has reliable enough connectivity for an Avantix upgrade to take advantage of it?

 

[Ferret]

Whilst I suspect Intercity TOCs don't suffer this problem as much as Regional operators, I wonder whether the wifi fitted for passenger use has reliable enough connectivity for an Avantix upgrade to take advantage of it?

I suffer from lack of phone signal all the time, and our wi-fi erm...needs improving(!). We've a long way to go before we can accept Electron I'm afraid!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Fortunately electron and solo are being phased out and visa is becoming more universal.

Experienced avantix users will be used to the certain card types that always decline. Light blue natwest, grey Lloyds tsb, green Yorkshire bank for example. This is down to the account type held at the bank and basically its mistrust at us customers with our own money. Typically these accounts don't have overdrafts so the cards automatically decline if they cannot authorise live. The railway have no incentive because the banks wont provide any. Off topic a bit but the sooner we dispense with credit ratings and scorekeeping and return to the bran h manager trusting his customers, we might just see moments like this disappear...

..or am i just being cynical?...

 

[maniacmartin]

Fortunately electron and solo are being phased out and visa is becoming more universal.

Customers who would have got Electrons now get Visa Debit-branded cards, but online-only ones. I think it adds more confusion personally as you can't tell by looking at the card. At least before you could easily tell if it was an Electron or not!

 

[158801]

Google Maps show Cardenden as 10 miles from Dunfermline - 20 minute drive.

Whats the definition of stranded ? Did she have a phone on her ?

"Hello mum, will you pick me up from Cardenden please"?

 

[alastair]

ScotRail Hello Alana,
Please accept our sincere apologies for what happened to your daughter on Monday night.
We are taking your complaint very seriously and will be in touch this morning to discuss it further.
When customers are unable to pay their fare – for whatever reason – they should be asked to fill in a form that will allow them to make payment within seven days.
We have identified the conductor involved and an urgent review has already begun.
2 hours ago · Like · 1

Amazing isnt it,how putting something on Facebook gets an almost instant,and not unhelpful,response from Scotrail?

 

[Ferret]

The power of social media!

 

[michael769]

"Hello mum, will you pick me up from Cardenden please"?

I am surprised by your confidence that her parent(s) were at home. Do you know them?

 

[Captain Chaos]

Customers who would have got Electrons now get Visa Debit-branded cards, but online-only ones. I think it adds more confusion personally as you can't tell by looking at the card. At least before you could easily tell if it was an Electron or not!

You can. The new ones still have flat numbers. If you turn the card over they will say Electronic Use Only still in the bottom left hand corner. They may swipe. But the TOC is highly unlikely to see the money from those particular cards I believe. Raised numbers are normal Visa Debit cards and are usually declined because of the bank not trusting their customers with their own money. Like mine!

 

[maniacmartin]

Not all online-auth cards have flat numbers any more, alas

 

[GadgetMan]

Google Maps show Cardenden as 10 miles from Dunfermline - 20 minute drive.

Whats the definition of stranded ? Did she have a phone on her ?

"Hello mum, will you pick me up from Cardenden please"?

Also it depends on what time she was kicked off the service as the station may have been manned at the time with another train 20-30 minutes later. According to NRE it's manned til 19:45 assuming it wasn't Sunday.

Some parents have a strange idea of their child's vulnerability and when to use the term 'stranded'.

I had a complaint made against me last year because a train I was working got diverted due to cable theft and we dumped a train load of around 100 passengers at Nottingham station in the afternoon peak around 18:00 hrs. This was on top of the 400 odd passengers already on the station awaiting further events/replacement buses.

The mother of a female that was on my train complained we left her 22 year old vulnerable daughter stranded at Nottingham station on her own with no information. The fact she missed the repeated announcements because her ears were plugged with loud music, and then gave me abuse when I tried to explain the situation to her personally during a ticket check was irrelevant!

Not saying the complaint in Scotrail's case is unwarranted. It's possible that there may well be more to the story. For example if the Girl (she could be aged 18 for all we know) had boarded at a station with ticketing facilities and then detrained whilst the station was manned with a train 25 minutes later then I would not deem this situation as a huge safety issue.

If on the other hand it was a 15 year old who boarded at a unmanned station then I would agree that the Guard should've handled it differently.

Need more info before I feel able to judge the Guard's actions.

 

[maniacmartin]

I am surprised by your confidence that her parent(s) were at home. Do you know them?

The facebook post itself mentions that the mother is at home and was able to visit the destination station to pay the fare (but that doesn't necessarily mean she had a car to get to the other station)

 

[455driver]

as with every story we hear, we shouldn't judge anyone without proper evidence..

It wont stop the usual suspects screaming that the guard should be sacked etc! :roll:



Good to see some desk jockey at ScotRail going into full apology mode before even investigating whether there is a case to answer!