ScotRail DOO dispute

[CarterUSM]

Just an update, if anyone is interested..... The RMT have arranged a meeting with ScotRail management at ACAS, the conciliation service on Thursday 29th July in Glasgow. Hopefully this will bring an end to this, from a personal point of view, rather long and protracted dispute. There is a mass postcard campaign on the go at the moment with to staff and members of the public having been asked to fill out a post card to their MSP showing their support to retain the guard on the services in question, and to protest at bankrolling ScotRail's possible losses, training costs and wages for the stand in 'guards' during the days of strike action. To date, Bill Butlers MSP.s Scottish parliamentary motion S3M-0644 'RMT industrial dispute' has been signed by 10 MSP's, with hopefully more to follow. We'll see what happens.........

 

[Scotrail84]

Just an update, if anyone is interested..... The RMT have arranged a meeting with ScotRail management at ACAS, the conciliation service on Thursday 29th July in Glasgow. Hopefully this will bring an end to this, from a personal point of view, rather long and protracted dispute. There is a mass postcard campaign on the go at the moment with to staff and members of the public having been asked to fill out a post card to their MSP showing their support to retain the guard on the services in question, and to protest at bankrolling ScotRail's possible losses, training costs and wages for the stand in 'guards' during the days of strike action. To date, Bill Butlers MSP.s Scottish parliamentary motion S3M-0644 'RMT industrial dispute' has been signed by 10 MSP's, with hopefully more to follow. We'll see what happens.........

In regards to the meeting nothing will happen. Scotrail will say they are not moving on the issue and DOO will come in as this new line is funded by transport Scotland. Are you directly affected by this dispute mate? I would like a compromise

 

[harz99]

Not wishing to inflame anyone here, but the guards might have a better case if those on the rural services spent more time out of the back cabs.

It is often the case on my local service STR-AYR-GLC that in the case of STR based crew they only come out for revenue checks after each station stop, and other crews sometimes never from taking over at say Ayr down to STR some 80 minutes later.

 

[The_Stig]

Not wishing to inflame anyone here, but the guards might have a better case if those on the rural services spent more time out of the back cabs.

It is often the case on my local service STR-AYR-GLC that in the case of STR based crew they only come out for revenue checks after each station stop, and other crews sometimes never from taking over at say Ayr down to STR some 80 minutes later.

What do you suggest they do in between stops?

 

[CarterUSM]

In regards to the meeting nothing will happen. Scotrail will say they are not moving on the issue and DOO will come in as this new line is funded by transport Scotland. Are you directly affected by this dispute mate? I would like a compromise

Aye mate, i'm affected as i'm in the grade. Whether I work the services in question or not means nowt though. I know it's likely nothing will happen, but i'm particularly interested to see the next move made by our union.
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What do you suggest they do in between stops?

Perhaps just pop out and make sure nothing is amiss.

 

[Scotrail84]

Aye mate, i'm affected as i'm in the grade. Whether I work the services in question or not means nowt though. I know it's likely nothing will happen, but i'm particularly interested to see the next move made by our union.
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Im affected by this as its a route i frequently cover. Your bound to have feeling that the union has made a right shop front of this dispute and BHG - Airdrie WILL go DOO come december timetable change. Its too late now, were doomed doomed i tell ya :cry:

 

[CarterUSM]

Aye, I think it's finished, and I've a feeling the North Berwicks will go shortly too, not to mention everything in Strathclyde when the rest is electrified as per the manning agreement. The battle was lost in 85 when central lost half it's routes to DOO. Funny though, I was told only a depot in Wales and immingham came out on strike with the central at the time, no one else thought it would happen to them.

 

[Scotrail84]

Aye, I think it's finished, and I've a feeling the North Berwicks will go shortly too, not to mention everything in Strathclyde when the rest is electrified as per the manning agreement. The battle was lost in 85 when central lost half it's routes to DOO. Funny though, I was told only a depot in Wales and immingham came out on strike with the central at the time, no one else thought it would happen to them.

North Berwicks seem safe for the time being as the 380s we are getting will have guards panels. That could well change in the future though. Its all about money and greedy shareholders! The electrification may not happen to the extent that has been talked about because the countrys effectivly skint and next year the cuts will start to hit home. I honestly think services could be cut in certain areas i also thinks stations like Briech could close because of low passengers numbers, which are falling for the first time in a few years.

 

[CarterUSM]

North Berwicks seem safe for the time being as the 380s we are getting will have guards panels. That could well change in the future though. Its all about money and greedy shareholders! The electrification may not happen to the extent that has been talked about because the countrys effectivly skint and next year the cuts will start to hit home. I honestly think services could be cut in certain areas i also thinks stations like Briech could close because of low passengers numbers, which are falling for the first time in a few years.

Aye, I hope it's the case anyway, don't want to lose any more, that's for sure. They tried to shut Briech years ago, but some old fella complained he had to use the train to pick his pension up or something similar. Don't know how true that story is though! Wonder what it's passenger figures will be like for this year!

 

[Scotrail84]

Aye, I hope it's the case anyway, don't want to lose any more, that's for sure. They tried to shut Briech years ago, but some old fella complained he had to use the train to pick his pension up or something similar. Don't know how true that story is though! Wonder what it's passenger figures will be like for this year!

Dunno mate but ive never picked up there but ive dropped off. There was a passenger who had Briech flexi passes ages ago

 

[scotsman]

I've heard most the arguments on Scot-Rail, but could you (as a conductor) explain why you feel Guards are important on trains?

 

[CarterUSM]

I've heard most the arguments on Scot-Rail, but could you (as a conductor) explain why you feel Guards are important on trains?

Done it to death on another thread mate, I cannot post a link as i'm on my phone, but it was called 'guard belled driver against a red signal', or something similar, 18 odd pages of it too..........

 

[9K43]

As a member of the NUR/RMT and a loyal member of this union I wish you well in your efforts.
I remember strikes of 85 and the inception of DOO at my depot,
I also know Micky Hogg as he was Chairman of the EWS Company Council, and I do not think he would do you a bad turn.

 

[scotsman]

Can I add my support to you two as well. I feel there has to be someone always onboard who can be solely responsible for passenger safety.

That and the fact that I'm a trade union supporter.

 

[yorkie]

I've heard most the arguments on Scot-Rail, but could you (as a conductor) explain why you feel Guards are important on trains?

There are several covering this. I will link to them, but please don't re-open them! I would, in addition to reading what guards say, recommend reading posts by Metroland, an ex-signaller, for a perspective from a signallers point of view.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=28569

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=30335

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=30816

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=33154 (Regarding SN but relevant to the FSR dispute)

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=33172

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=31981

 

[CarterUSM]

As a member of the NUR/RMT and a loyal member of this union I wish you well in your efforts.
I remember strikes of 85 and the inception of DOO at my depot,
I also know Micky Hogg as he was Chairman of the EWS Company Council, and I do not think he would do you a bad turn.

Thanks for your support, and yourself scotsman. 9K43, would you be able to give me some background on the 85 strikes from the perspective of your depot at the time, though if you have no wish to I would understand. PM if necessary of course. I'd echo yorkies sentiment about not re-opening the said thread however! From a personal view, I think we've lost, and whilst not trying to sound bitter, it has been a stitch up of the highest order, my wish is that something positive comes of the meeting on the 29th to at least put it to bed one way or another. Thanks again.

 

[tbtc]

They tried to shut Briech years ago, but some old fella complained he had to use the train to pick his pension up or something similar. Don't know how true that story is though! Wonder what it's passenger figures will be like for this year!

If that guy had a cold one week it could have had a dramatic reduction in passenger numbers - I hope he's feeling okay

 

[9K43]

Thanks for your support, and yourself scotsman. 9K43, would you be able to give me some background on the 85 strikes from the perspective of your depot at the time, though if you have no wish to I would understand. PM if necessary of course. I'd echo yorkies sentiment about not re-opening the said thread however! From a personal view, I think we've lost, and whilst not trying to sound bitter, it has been a stitch up of the highest order, my wish is that something positive comes of the meeting on the 29th to at least put it to bed one way or another. Thanks again.

In the mid 1980's we had a ballot from the NUR to take action against DOO(NP).
You had guards on freight and passenger guards on mileage payments.
At my depot we were part of the the set up at Immingham.
BR imposed DOO working on the Imm to Scunthorpe Iron ore trains.
The men at Immingham went on strike over this imposition.
Then they sacked about 10 men and held these lads hostage to get a settlement for the imposition of DOO.
This did not effect passenger guards only freight depots.
DOO then came in n these Iron Ore Trains.
In 1986 the first DOO train left my depot and then a lot more came in.
ASLEF could not wait to get there hands on the £7.20p per train for DOO.
In my view as a guard with 3 decades of service, drivers have always looked after thier interests with no thought about other grades including secondmen and drivers assistants.
It was a fact that so long as they were ok it did not matter who got hurt.
At the big passenger depots with lots of mileage payements for guards things went on as normal.
These payments could double a guards wage in a week.
In the whole of my service, I got 1 hours mileage payment, eg £3.20.

 

[anonymous0101]

I'm pretty sure Train Drivers are not in favour of DOO operated trains?

 

[Greenback]

Some are, some aren't. Some simply don't care! Probably most would rather have a guard or other member of staff on board. And that's where the crunch comes, ASLEF seem to be officially happy with removing guards, and justify it by saying it's OK where there are increased employment opportunities (as in the T/E's Scotland), no redundancies as a result, and this is where ASLEF is in conflict with the views of some of it's members.

 

[scotsman]

If I were a driver, I'd be happier knowing that there was someone responsible for the safety of my passengers onboard. So if anything happened - they would be in safe hands. A ticket examiner only has basic evacuation training - not a huge amount of use without a PTS card.

 

[9K43]

I'm pretty sure Train Drivers are not in favour of DOO operated trains?

I was once called out of the mess room to work a train with a driver, just after the impositions on DOO(NP)
The foreman told me to go with a certain driver.
This driver made it quite plain to me that my going with him on a loco was costing him money, and therefore I was not welcome on that footplate.
Some trains were booked with a guard, but drivers would come early and leave without the guard to claim the DOO payment.
Drivers would sell anyone just to make more money, even other drivers.
Since 3/10/88 when anyone could be appointed to be a driver after taking the aptitude test the grade of diver had been diluted by the influx of other grades and people off the street.
This is bourn out as I have said by first hand experience over many years service.
If you were not a driver, you were nothing.
In Scotland today, I would think that nothing has changed.

 

[455driver]

Well I am a guard and the drivers I have spoken to do not want DOO in any form, including the ones I wind up . But that is a different story

 

[CarterUSM]

In the mid 1980's we had a ballot from the NUR to take action against DOO(NP).
You had guards on freight and passenger guards on mileage payments.
At my depot we were part of the the set up at Immingham.
BR imposed DOO working on the Imm to Scunthorpe Iron ore trains.
The men at Immingham went on strike over this imposition.
Then they sacked about 10 men and held these lads hostage to get a settlement for the imposition of DOO.
This did not effect passenger guards only freight depots.
DOO then came in n these Iron Ore Trains.
In 1986 the first DOO train left my depot and then a lot more came in.
ASLEF could not wait to get there hands on the £7.20p per train for DOO.
In my view as a guard with 3 decades of service, drivers have always looked after thier interests with no thought about other grades including secondmen and drivers assistants.
It was a fact that so long as they were ok it did not matter who got hurt.
At the big passenger depots with lots of mileage payements for guards things went on as normal.
These payments could double a guards wage in a week.
In the whole of my service, I got 1 hours mileage payment, eg £3.20.

Thanks for that 9K43. Am I right in saying the other depot that came out in support with you guys and Glasgow Central was Llanelli? All the Central guards were sacked, about 200 of them if I remember correctly, of course, they were reinstated later. Aslef's official position is no further extension of DOO(P) and a review of all current DOO. But they accepted this with no qualms and with apparant little resistance from members.
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Well I am a guard and the drivers I have spoken to do not want DOO in any form, including the ones I wind up . But that is a different story

Don't kid yourself mate, their regional organiser would sign away your job in a second!

 

[Scotrail84]

End of the day drivers will always be looked after and all other grades below driver can bolt. Thats just my opinion.

 

[9K43]

End of the day drivers will always be looked after and all other grades below driver can bolt. Thats just my opinion.

I think that about sums it up, and nothing will change until trains run with no driver.
If in 1969 the technology was there to send men to the moon and bringing them back to splash down on a dustbin lid in the Pacific, then making a train run with out someone driving it should be a easy.

 

[Scotrail84]

I think that about sums it up, and nothing will change until trains run with no driver.
If in 1969 the technology was there to send men to the moon and bringing them back to splash down on a dustbin lid in the Pacific, then making a train run with out someone driving it should be a easy.

Basically its get a drivers job and be treated like a king or put up and shut up. Every year the drivers and guards pay get further and further apart yet the union doesnt seem to mind. Regarding the Doo dispute up North i wonder if the RMT would bother if all the members in Scotland joined another union because they have made a balls up with the fight.

 

[swt_passenger]

There's a fairly detailed report on this in today's Herald.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/transport-environment/rmt-leaders-face-revolt-as-members-say-they-were-abandoned-in-scotrail-dispute-1.1046658

Looks as though it has been a real success for Scotrail:

"The document makes clear that ScotRail will deploy “driver-only” trains on the Airdrie-Bathgate route and will not give blanket guarantees that the staffing practice will not be rolled out following the introduction of new services elsewhere in Scotland."

"A spokesman for ScotRail added: “I can confirm that Bob Crow has written to the company saying the RMT is no longer in dispute with ScotRail."

 

[Aictos]

Typicial, leadership mouths off about how much they're opposing DOO then pretty much welcome it with open arms, not what I expected from them - one hopes the guards at Glasgow get enough support from other branches to post a vote of no confidence in the leadership.

 

[313103]

Typicial, leadership mouths off about how much they're opposing DOO then pretty much welcome it with open arms, not what I expected from them - one hopes the guards at Glasgow get enough support from other branches to post a vote of no confidence in the leadership.

I think you had better read between the lines Ajax, The RMT have not given up there pursuit of stopping DOO, they doing it differently. Not read the Scotsman article yet but thought i would have a look on RMT's website and found this.
http://www.rmt.org.uk/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=137823

A quick read will find they havent left the Guards out to dry, afterall if they did then they would lose every Guard member as DOO would be brought in across the whole network. Think i am dreaming, think i am exagerating, think i am scaremongering you only have to see what Scotrail have got planned in Scotland. If RMT lose this one they will lose the rest. In London Overground the company have made it quite clear in the way Guards are treated that the company would rather dispence with our services, then keep us.