Scotrail Class 68's? further uses?

[PYROOGOBBO]

Hey sorry if it's also dumb to ask or that, But i kinda felt like it'd be a missed oppurtinity for scotrail 68's to just be used on the fife circle line? (eventually them getting replaced by 170's or that)

I wondered, would it be a good idea for scotrail maybe to accompany their HST stock, with getting something like what TPE has with their MK5 + DVT Stock? then use them on like, Edinburgh/Glasgow to Inverness route?, Would look to be really nice for Peak times (5 Carriages as opposed to the 4 On the HST's)

like these


Or get some of anglias MK3 DVT stock and maybe use them to run with the 68's like what chiltern run

 

[yorkie]

You mean the DRS 68s which are sub-leased to Scotrail.

You are effectively asking if Scotrail could get some Mk 5 coaches, though the way you have worded it sounds like a case of the tail wagging the dog

 

[PYROOGOBBO]

You mean the DRS 68s which are sub-leased to Scotrail.

You are effectively asking if Scotrail could get some Mk 5 coaches, though the way it's worded it sounds like a case of the tail wagging the dog

Yeah those ones :3, the ones used on the fife circle line. as said, would be a shame if they couldnt also use them for other routes too (or they go after they are replaced with like a 6 car 170)

i just wondered, Looking at TPE's new 68 and MK5 stock or Chilterns 68+MK3+DVT, would those make really good uses for the Edinburgh/Glasgow to Inverness route? Or Use the MK2 Stock for Glasgow to Oban/Mallaig

 

[tbtc]

One of my favourite uses of rail stock post-privatisation was the 37s that Arriva Trains Northern hired - they were used on a peak working from the Harrogate line into Leeds in the morning rush hour... then a nicely timed return journey on the Settle & Carlisle route during the middle of the day (ideal for the kind of day-tripper market that sustains that line)... so that they were back in Leeds in time to do an evening peak service towards Harrogate...

...at the moment the timings don't work perfectly but I wonder if a little rejigging would allow a nice long rake providing crucial capacity from Fife into Edinburgh, then a daytime jaunt to Inverness and be back at Waverley in time to take commuters back to Fife at tea time...it's three and a half hours from Edinburgh to Inverness so call it an eight hour round trip... would it be feasible to do a daily Glenrothes - Edinburgh - Inverness - Edinburgh - Glenrothes duty?

(maybe the same could work for a daytime Glasgow - Oban - Glasgow service, but the electrification of most services into Queen Street makes it harder to justify that kind of service for peak capacity)

 

[gingertom]

...at the moment the timings don't work perfectly but I wonder if a little rejigging would allow a nice long rake providing crucial capacity from Fife into Edinburgh, then a daytime jaunt to Inverness and be back at Waverley in time to take commuters back to Fife at tea time...it's three and a half hours from Edinburgh to Inverness so call it an eight hour round trip... would it be feasible to do a daily Glenrothes - Edinburgh - Inverness - Edinburgh - Glenrothes duty?

With all the disruption caused by the late arrival of the HSTs into service I wonder if ScotRail missed a trick here? As you say after doing the morning run into Edinburgh there would be enough time to take in, if too tight for an Inverness run, then perhaps a shorter Aberdeen run, and be back in time for the evening peak. There must have been a reason this wasn't done, probably financial, but maybe lack of drivers' route knowledge, issues running around the train at the terminii, especially Edinburgh Waverley at the run up to a busy time, or the rolling stock being deemed unsuitable for an intercity journey.

 

[Mathieu]

One of my favourite uses of rail stock post-privatisation was the 37s that Arriva Trains Northern hired - they were used on a peak working from the Harrogate line into Leeds in the morning rush hour... then a nicely timed return journey on the Settle & Carlisle route during the middle of the day (ideal for the kind of day-tripper market that sustains that line)... so that they were back in Leeds in time to do an evening peak service towards Harrogate...

...at the moment the timings don't work perfectly but I wonder if a little rejigging would allow a nice long rake providing crucial capacity from Fife into Edinburgh, then a daytime jaunt to Inverness and be back at Waverley in time to take commuters back to Fife at tea time...it's three and a half hours from Edinburgh to Inverness so call it an eight hour round trip... would it be feasible to do a daily Glenrothes - Edinburgh - Inverness - Edinburgh - Glenrothes duty?

(maybe the same could work for a daytime Glasgow - Oban - Glasgow service, but the electrification of most services into Queen Street makes it harder to justify that kind of service for peak capacity)

Don't think the 68s are approved to run up the West Highland Line

 

[221129]

How would you reverse the train at inverness within the needed turn around time?

 

[Esker-pades]

One of my favourite uses of rail stock post-privatisation was the 37s that Arriva Trains Northern hired - they were used on a peak working from the Harrogate line into Leeds in the morning rush hour... then a nicely timed return journey on the Settle & Carlisle route during the middle of the day (ideal for the kind of day-tripper market that sustains that line)... so that they were back in Leeds in time to do an evening peak service towards Harrogate...

...at the moment the timings don't work perfectly but I wonder if a little rejigging would allow a nice long rake providing crucial capacity from Fife into Edinburgh, then a daytime jaunt to Inverness and be back at Waverley in time to take commuters back to Fife at tea time...it's three and a half hours from Edinburgh to Inverness so call it an eight hour round trip... would it be feasible to do a daily Glenrothes - Edinburgh - Inverness - Edinburgh - Glenrothes duty?

(maybe the same could work for a daytime Glasgow - Oban - Glasgow service, but the electrification of most services into Queen Street makes it harder to justify that kind of service for peak capacity)

Your problem is that, with the current timetable, the 68s get into Edinburgh just after the 08:34 departure to Inverness. You'd have a 90-120 minute dwell at Edinburgh before they could form the next service. The 10:36 arrives at Inverness at 14:11. Current diagrams have it running ECS to Inverness TMD at this point. The next Edinburgh service is the 15:56, arriving in at 19:31, which has entirely missed the evening peak.

There is a recast due for the Highland Main Line, but we'll have to wait until at least December to see exactly what it would look like. Whatever happens, it would be tight.

 

[Speed43125]

There is no rear driving cab for those coaches, yes DRS have a bunch of DBSOs, but the whole Mk2. concept isn't PRM compliant and would involve another round of training. There are now over half of the Refurbished HST sets delivered, had you implemented this 2 or 3 years ago, maybe, but now that ship has passed and the 68s will probably be returned to DRS, even though the odd peak buster they run can be very useful.
PS. they are effectively wet leased with a DRS driver who operates them correct?

 

[hexagon789]

How would you reverse the train at inverness within the needed turn around time?

The option would be top&tail but that would need twice as many locos of course

 

[tbtc]

I wondered, would it be a good idea for scotrail maybe to accompany their HST stock, with getting something like what TPE has with their MK5 + DVT Stock?

<snip> </snip>

Or get some of anglias MK3 DVT stock and maybe use them to run with the 68's like what chiltern run

How would you reverse the train at inverness within the needed turn around time?

I was going with the OP's suggestion (above) that DVTs would be used, as with the TPE and Anglia examples that they cited

One of my favourite uses of rail stock post-privatisation was the 37s that Arriva Trains Northern hired - they were used on a peak working from the Harrogate line into Leeds in the morning rush hour... then a nicely timed return journey on the Settle & Carlisle route during the middle of the day (ideal for the kind of day-tripper market that sustains that line)... so that they were back in Leeds in time to do an evening peak service towards Harrogate...

...at the moment the timings don't work perfectly but I wonder if a little rejigging would allow a nice long rake providing crucial capacity from Fife into Edinburgh, then a daytime jaunt to Inverness and be back at Waverley in time to take commuters back to Fife at tea time...it's three and a half hours from Edinburgh to Inverness so call it an eight hour round trip... would it be feasible to do a daily Glenrothes - Edinburgh - Inverness - Edinburgh - Glenrothes duty?

Your problem is that, with the current timetable, the 68s get into Edinburgh just after the 08:34 departure to Inverness. You'd have a 90-120 minute dwell at Edinburgh before they could form the next service. The 10:36 arrives at Inverness at 14:11. Current diagrams have it running ECS to Inverness TMD at this point. The next Edinburgh service is the 15:56, arriving in at 19:31, which has entirely missed the evening peak.

There is a recast due for the Highland Main Line, but we'll have to wait until at least December to see exactly what it would look like. Whatever happens, it would be tight.

Oh I appreciate that it doesn't match up right now, but there are nine hours between a half eight arrival into Edinburgh and a half five departure - the journey to Inverness is around three and a half hours (i.e. seven hour round trip) - since this is the Speculative Ideas section of the Forum, I though it worth bringing up, i.e.

• 05:00 Departs Mossend
• 07:00 Arrives at Cardenden
• 07:30 Departs Cardenden
• 08:30 Arrival into Edinburgh
• 09:00 Departs Edinburgh
• 12:30 Arrives into Inverness
• 13:30 Departs Inverness
• 17:00 Arrival into Edinburgh
• 17:30 Departs Edinburgh
• 18:00 Arrives at Cardenden
• 18:30 Departs Cardenden
• 21:00 Arrives at Mossend

...whereas at the moment, the 68 is leaving Mossend at 04:57 and getting back at 21:15 (but not earning any money during the middle of the day).

It's currently a very expensive way of providing peak capacity from Fife into Edinburgh (sixteen hours away from Lanarkshire) - I just had the idea that you'd have about enough time for a hurl up to Inverness and back - if this is a good long rake to cope with rush hour commuters then there should be plenty of seats for the leisure market wanting a round trip from Edinburgh to the Highlands during daylight hours (for most of the year).

I'm sure there'd be a market for people wanting a taste of the Highlands (e.g. long enough to have a walk for a couple of hours around Dalwhinnie or a cream tea in Pitlochry... maybe you could find people wanting a run out in the great outdoors whilst being back in Edinburgh for tea) - so why not use the juicy long rake of Fife Circle carriages to provide a service with more capacity than the regular trains on the Highland Main Line?

Pure speculation, I'm sure it'll be denounced as Crayonista Wibble, but the stock is sat idle during the daytime, there's got to be a healthy market for daytrippers - and you've got LNER to provide the long train suited to Inverness people having time down in the central belt - why don't ScotRail target the opposite market?

 

[Esker-pades]

Oh I appreciate that it doesn't match up right now, but there are nine hours between a half eight arrival into Edinburgh and a half five departure - the journey to Inverness is around three and a half hours (i.e. seven hour round trip) - since this is the Speculative Ideas section of the Forum, I though it worth bringing up, i.e.

• 05:00 Departs Mossend
• 07:00 Arrives at Cardenden
• 07:30 Departs Cardenden
• 08:30 Arrival into Edinburgh
• 09:00 Departs Edinburgh
• 12:30 Arrives into Inverness
• 13:30 Departs Inverness
• 17:00 Arrival into Edinburgh
• 17:30 Departs Edinburgh
• 18:00 Arrives at Cardenden
• 18:30 Departs Cardenden
• 21:00 Arrives at Mossend

...whereas at the moment, the 68 is leaving Mossend at 04:57 and getting back at 21:15 (but not earning any money during the middle of the day).

It's currently a very expensive way of providing peak capacity from Fife into Edinburgh (sixteen hours away from Lanarkshire) - I just had the idea that you'd have about enough time for a hurl up to Inverness and back - if this is a good long rake to cope with rush hour commuters then there should be plenty of seats for the leisure market wanting a round trip from Edinburgh to the Highlands during daylight hours (for most of the year).

I'm sure there'd be a market for people wanting a taste of the Highlands (e.g. long enough to have a walk for a couple of hours around Dalwhinnie or a cream tea in Pitlochry... maybe you could find people wanting a run out in the great outdoors whilst being back in Edinburgh for tea) - so why not use the juicy long rake of Fife Circle carriages to provide a service with more capacity than the regular trains on the Highland Main Line?

Pure speculation, I'm sure it'll be denounced as Crayonista Wibble, but the stock is sat idle during the daytime, there's got to be a healthy market for daytrippers - and you've got LNER to provide the long train suited to Inverness people having time down in the central belt - why don't ScotRail target the opposite market?

It's a far better thought-through plan than most of the wibble that's on here. I wasn't rejecting it as an idea outright. I'd be interested to have this discussion again when we know exactly what the Highland Main Line recast looks like.

 

[Iskra]

How would you reverse the train at inverness within the needed turn around time?

Surely it would be much easier to use a HST on the Fife Circle, simplifying things massively for Scotrail by eradicating the 68's and using a common pool that can interwork with other routes.

 

[Speed43125]

Surely it would be much easier to use a HST on the Fife Circle, simplifying things massively for Scotrail by eradicating the 68's and using a common pool that can interwork with other routes.

I'm not sure they suit that work at all, but yes. That certainly sounds a lot better, if rather hard on the 43s and the dwell times may be an issue..

 

[Iskra]

I'm not sure they suit that work at all, but yes. That certainly sounds a lot better, if rather hard on the 43s and the dwell times may be an issue..

If GWR can use them on stoppers in Cornwall & Devon, I don't see why Scotrail can't. Dwell times would be no different to now MK2's v MK3's must be pretty similar. They would improve if power door HST's were used.

 

[Speed43125]

If GWR can use them on stoppers in Cornwall & Devon, I don't see why Scotrail can't. Dwell times would be no different to now MK2's v MK3's must be pretty similar. They would improve if power door HST's were used.

So we thinking they should nab an extra couple of (preferably LNER) mk3s and have 28 sets?

 

[Iskra]

So we thinking they should nab an extra couple of (preferably LNER) mk3s and have 28 sets?

Makes more sense to me!