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Having many a time enjoyed the experience of drunks drinking on trains, I personally would be quite happy if the ban was made permanent. If someone can't manage without a drink for a couple of hours maximum then they may have a problem!
Scotrail's insistence on no alcohol is irritating, clearly implemented to discourage a certain type of sports traveler to the determent of the professionals among us quietly enjoying a G&T after a long week.
Wanting to ban others from enjoying what they want in a sensible way that does not impact upon you suggests that the person making that suggestion "may have a problem" as opposed to the person wanting to enjoy themselves
Wanting to ban others from enjoying what they want in a sensible way that does not impact upon you suggests that the person making that suggestion "may have a problem" as opposed to the person wanting to enjoy themselves
One option is what seems to have worked for ASB generally on Merseyrail (though they too have an alcohol ban) namely having "bouncers" on problem trains.
The problem with alcohol bans is, the arguments between staff/police and passengers whose alcohol is being confiscated or refused often causes far more trouble and stress than the alcohol itself.
The problem with alcohol bans is, the arguments between staff/police and passengers whose alcohol is being confiscated or refused often causes far more trouble and stress than the alcohol itself.
One option is what seems to have worked for ASB generally on Merseyrail (though they too have an alcohol ban) namely having "bouncers" on problem trains.
I agree that there is a clear reduction in antisocial behaviour when a blanket alcohol ban is implemented, but is this really the only way to achieve this?
Is it really fair to penalise people like myself who, after a very long working week, enjoy a small tipple on the (2 hour) train home, clearly presenting very little risk of antisocial behaviour?
By all means, on match days, I can see the logic of banning alcohol on services local to the football stadium, but blanket bans are a highly restrictive measure targeting a small minority and disadvantaging a much larger group.
I would argue one of the appeals of taking the train is to be able to enjoy a drink whilst travelling, impossible if you drive.
I'm neither puritan nor teetotal, and I do enjoy a beer, glass of wine or a G&T every now and then, but we have to accept that Scotland has an unhealthy relationship with alcohol. I live in the city centre and I see the consequences of that relationship pretty much all the time (it's not just a Friday/Saturday night thing).
Prohibiting consumption on public transport is, in my opinion, not a bad thing.
Scotland has an unhealthy relationship with alcohol. I live in the city centre and I see the consequences of that relationship pretty much all the time (it's not just a Friday/Saturday night thing).
Prohibiting consumption on public transport is, in my opinion, not a bad thing.
From the other thread (thanks @Huntergreed for creating this one).
It is certainly true that Scotland's relationship with alcohol is very different from that in the South of England, as a whole, and much less healthy (that isn't to say the SE doesn't have problems, but the idea of a midday regional express train being full of drunks is utterly unknown down here - you perhaps get some problems late Friday/Saturday evening but not otherwise), and those problems mostly relate to alcohol consumed before travelling, not during it. The North of England is sort of between the two, with some specific problem trains (e.g. the evening Liverpool-Brum semifasts on which there is a ban) but not a general one.
However, I'm not sure the same thing as applies to urban services around Glasgow/Edinburgh (comparable to Merseyrail) should also apply to say the Highland main line, on which journeys are quite long and a drink can be quite civilised. I am not sure that there is call for an alcohol ban on TransPennine Express, which is comparable to the domestic Scottish long distance services. There is a known issue with the "Rail Ale Trail" but that is drinking in pubs, not on trains.
Aberdeen is an interesting one and relates specifically to oil rig workers, I believe, so would fit with a targetted ban plus the presence of "rent-a-thugs" a la Merseyrail to either chuck off or charge with Byelaw offences anyone causing a problem.
I would welcome it on the Argyle and North Clyde lines, which suffer immensely from drunk and disorderly behaviour - especially around Queen Street. I see no reason for it to be permanent anywhere else in Scotland though.
I've asked for some of the posts in the other thread to be moved over here, but yes - if someone can't go without a drink for a few hours then they do, by definition, have a problem.
The reason that the ban should stay in place is precisely because of that kind of person. While they exist, and want to use public transport, then a ban makes sense. To my way of thinking, public transport exists to get people from where they are to another place that they want to be - if you want a drink, go to a supermarket or a pub.
I've asked for some of the posts in the other thread to be moved over here, but yes - if someone can't go without a drink for a few hours then they do, by definition, have a problem.
This always comes up, and it is a fallacious argument, and I recognise that even though me consuming alcohol on a train is an incredibly rare event (must be 5 years or more since I last did). It's another one in the "people think in absolutes" bucket.
Anyone who cannot go without a drink for a few hours (days, weeks - pick any time duration, really) is an alcoholic, yes. That is indisputable.
But most people don't drink alcohol because they are addicted to it. I am certainly not addicted to it, I've very often gone weeks without an alcoholic drink. They drink it because they find it enjoyable to do so, either for its taste, for its effects or for both. In essence, what you're asking is that people give up something they find pleasurable for the benefit of those who find the effects of it unpleasant - it's trading off their desire against yours, essentially.
Similarly, one could say that drinking tea and coffee on trains causes problems. It does to an extent - it gets spilt, causing minor scalds and damage to seat and carpet fabric and no doubt to the underlying metal too. It also increases demand for the toilet facilities. Thus, should that too be banned?
The question is really "does the problem outweigh the benefit", and secondarily "is that problem so large that blanket collective punishment is the only viable option".
My take on those is "sometimes" (hence targetted bans), and "no".
@najaB - do I recall from previous debates that you are teetotal? This would certainly bring in some sort of bias, particularly if the reason is an ideological one of some kind either through religion or past negative experience? (Yes or no is fine, there's no need to delve into those often very personal reasons on here).
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The reason that the ban should stay in place is precisely because of that kind of person. While they exist, and want to use public transport, then a ban makes sense. To my way of thinking, public transport exists to get people from where they are to another place that they want to be - if you want a drink, go to a supermarket or a pub.
Public transport exists to do that, yes, but while it is so doing people need to entertain themselves, otherwise it's rather boring.
Personally, I've had more problems on trains (including in Scotland) from antisocial use of tablets and mobile phones than from alcohol. Should those be banned too? (I do think there should be stricter enforcement of not playing such devices out loud, but that's more like having strict enforcement on on-board behaviour rather than an alcohol ban).
This always comes up, and it is a fallacious argument, and I recognise that even though me consuming alcohol on a train is an incredibly rare event (must be 5 years or more since I last did). It's another one in the "people think in absolutes" bucket.
@najaB - do I recall from previous debates that you are teetotal? This would certainly bring in some sort of bias, particularly if the reason is an ideological one of some kind either through religion or past negative experience? (Yes or no is fine, there's no need to delve into those often very personal reasons on here).
Of course, not everyone who drinks on a train will cause antisocial behaviour. It'll only be a minority who do. However, in its nature, public transport is shared. If your fellow passengers are causing large issues for train-crew, police, or general safety, I don't see how you can contest an alcohol ban. If you don't want the potential of your enjoyment/relaxing/drinking to be affected by others, don't use transportation that's shared by others.
It's sad but I made that choice myself after using the late night Liverpool to Birmingham trains as mentioned above. I really, really feel sorry for the crew working those.
Of course, not everyone who drinks on a train will cause antisocial behaviour. It'll only be a minority who do. However, in its nature, public transport is shared. If your fellow passengers are causing large issues for train-crew, police, or general safety, I don't see how you can contest an alcohol ban. If you don't want the potential of your enjoyment/relaxing/drinking to be affected by others, don't use transportation that's shared by others.
It's sad but I made that choice myself after using the late night Liverpool to Birmingham trains as mentioned above. I really, really feel sorry for the crew working those.
Those of course are an example of where a targetted ban made sense, and ScotRail already had the "calling time after 9" thing to deal with the higher incidence of that problem caused by the issue affecting far more of their network than elsewhere. Essentially the issue is that when your last train home is a bit too early (e.g. somewhere around 10pm) and the journey is relatively long (more than half an hour or so), people go out early, drink heavily and take the last train home, drinking on the train as well, so their evening at least continues to the classic closing time of around 11pm.
You get the issue a lot less when the last train home is at a more sensible time for a night out. For instance, the 0010 off Euston on a Saturday evening is mostly full of people sleeping (or passed out), not drinking. You get a bit of the former on the trains around 2200 but it's mostly issues caused by people already having been drinking than those drinking on board. WMT have flirted with the "time after 9" thing on those trains but I don't know if they are presently doing it or not.
Merseyrail does have a ban, but in my extensive experience of using it at all times of day there was very rarely a problem with drinking on trains, it was all about people being drunk and disorderly when they got to the station, and Merseyrail is about the only TOC that does enforce that at times.
Clearly there's an issue around Aberdeen with regard to shift changes on oil rigs, and that's been there for years. A targetted ban with Police bag searches etc make sense to deal with this.
Wanting to ban others from enjoying what they want in a sensible way that does not impact upon you suggests that the person making that suggestion "may have a problem" as opposed to the person wanting to enjoy themselves
You needed two large caveats that are often predictably in doubt when it comes to alcohol. I don’t think this topic would exist if your rules were followed.
Most people causing trouble on trains through drink are already drunk when they board. I can think of a couple of notable exceptions in my time managing passengers on board trains (I work trains from Norwich to Peterborough conveying offshore workers and I am from an offshore family too so I know what it's like) but generally the problematic stuff isn't consumed on board. Lads Lads Lads smashing cases of alcohol rarely actually get more than a couple of cans each and half the time they leave behind several sealed ones - back in the day it was seen as a nice bonus for the Saturday night cleaners to take home after they'd finished cleaning up the sick. Spirits are more of an issue.
Unless you fix the UK culture of getting totally hammered, making a mess/having a fight/being sick/pissing everywhere and then having a laugh about it with the lads/the girls later then you're not going to keep it away from the railway.
Personally I don't often drink on the train but I do travel when I've had a drink. You're much more likely to find me drinking strong coffee than more drink when that's the case.
In essence I'd agree there is a wider need for people to be thrown in the cells overnight if they are acting in a disorderly manner because of drink in any setting, and for that threshold for "disorderly" to be quite a bit lower than it presently is.
Most people causing trouble on trains through drink are already drunk when they board. I can think of a couple of notable exceptions in my time managing passengers on board trains (I work trains from Norwich to Peterborough conveying offshore workers and I am from an offshore family too so I know what it's like) but generally the problematic stuff isn't consumed on board. Lads Lads Lads smashing cases of alcohol rarely actually get more than a couple of cans each and half the time they leave behind several sealed ones - back in the day it was seen as a nice bonus for the Saturday night cleaners to take home after they'd finished cleaning up the sick. Spirits are more of an issue.
Unless you fix the UK culture of getting totally hammered, making a mess/having a fight/being sick/pissing everywhere and then having a laugh about it with the lads/the girls later then you're not going to keep it away from the railway.
Personally I don't often drink on the train but I do travel when I've had a drink. You're much more likely to find me drinking strong coffee than more drink when that's the case.
The worst cases were York Races. Those offenders should never have been near a railway station and they were absolutely steaming by the time they got on a train.
Grand Central had the last train north from York to Teesside and Wearside on a Saturday night which you could have had the Marines guarding and there'd still have been trouble. Police block at the station, turn away very drunk people and have a few vans standing by to take the worst ones to the station. Magistrates on Monday morning. That's how a society should work, but instead crappy Britain has to ban decent, sober and upstanding people from having a single drink on a train.
The worst cases were York Races. Those offenders should never have been near a railway station and they were absolutely steaming by the time they got on a train.
Interesting, as the Grand National is the most notable time when Merseyrail get all their "rent-a-thugs" out and turn very drunk people away to sober up.
This has not been without controversy, as there was one case a while ago where they turned someone away who had some sort of coordination-related medical condition that made them appear drunk even if they had had no alcohol whatsoever.
Grand Central had the last train north from York to Teesside and Wearside on a Saturday night which you could have had the Marines guarding and there'd still have been trouble. Police block at the station, turn away very drunk people and have a few vans standing by to take the worst ones to the station. Magistrates on Monday morning. That's how a society should work, but instead crappy Britain has to ban decent, sober and upstanding people from having a single drink on a train.
Agreed. In the UK we seem to have moved away from in-person policing and only like "passive policing" that can be done automatically or by poorly-trained, cheap staff.
Why should polite, sensible professionals be punished come the end of the week/weekend just because a sub-section of the Scottish public cant control themselves on a Saturday afternoon?
If you are going to ban it, ban it on Saturday when the majority of alcohol fuel incidents are happening due to specific events, something about a round ball...
The appeal of taking the train is sitting, doing some work, having a drink, watching the world go by. Things that cannot be done when driving.
If there is an anti social problem on a few trains, then extra security should be deployed accordingly. Not to mention extra carriages! Is there a weekend that goes past when sporting event services arent overcrowded?
Its notable that LNER are OK with this. Just another reason they are getting my custom when I go down south/go back home as opposed to taking ScotRail.
There's little more civilised (if decidedly pricey) than working your way through the whisky menu on the Sleeper with some haggis, neeps and tatties or a cheeseboard. But that was separate anyway and the ban only applied when it was legally mandated rather than ScotRail policy.
When I'm on an All-Lines Rover I travel for long hours, and a beer or wine on the journey is welcome. One suggestion upthread was I should wait until I get home. Well, by the time I get to my hotel it may be midnight, and with my next train at 0500 I want my sleep.
What I object to is the idea that I should be banned from doing something that's inoffensive and generally legal just in case some other people act in an antisocial manner. It's the behaviour of those people that should be addressed, not mine.
And as to the idea that banning booze for the short time the morons are on the train will make any real difference, that just seems, um, counter-intuitive.
