Scotrail, Abellio and April

[Blindtraveler]

Yet it is now Westminster who who are the more enthusiastic ones about extending to Carlisle


As pointed out above their do seem to have been an awful lot of road schemes that have happened in full whilst a number of of key rail projects were descoped or at very best skimped on. That having been said, I'm certainly one of the loudest voices when it comes to the dualling of the A9, mainly because I don't really want to spend and my trip to the Highlands sitting behind the lorry or on a 170 and would rather be able to zoom up there in a couple of hours on a modern comfortable coach and still have a decent amount of the day left without either starting at cock crow or getting home hellish f late

 

[Bald Rick]

Yet it is now Westminster who who are the more enthusiastic ones about extending to Carlisle

They really aren’t! Certainly no one in DfT.

 

[Davester50]

Scotland’s railway has done very, very well for rail investment the last decade and a half.

The Borders railway would not have been built anywhere else in the U.K., and wouldn’t be built in Scotland now if it were to be proposed now. Scotland is very lucky to have it, due to an alignment of two specific political issues, a very determined politician, and a desire to put one over Westminster.

That's all true, but irrelevant the point of the fudge that is TS.
I've never known a road scheme to open at capacity.

 

[Ex-controller]

They were good really. Their Commonwealth Games timetable was absolutely flawless. Abellio would probably just add extra carriages and call it a day.

I can assure you it wasn’t flawless. Quite farcical at times through the Argyle Line in fact, but I can see why when compared to Abellio it would seem so. First at least made plenty of effort in comparison.

The early rumours were that Abellio believed they’d been sold a dud when encouraged to bid for the franchise by the Scottish government and so effectively stopped trying.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Mar 2022 ==

That's all true, but irrelevant the point of the fudge that is TS.
I've never known a road scheme to open at capacity.

True. The Borders Railway was arguably already over capacity when opened, and completely lacked any future proofing (EDIT: with the possible exception of Shawfair station).

As we’re seeing with the ferries debacle, the need to put out good news stories at the expense of all other considerations seems to hold sway.

 

[InOban]

Actually I believe that a greater proportion of the infrastructure budget has been spent on road vs rail in Scotland than in England. It may have been better spent in Scotland (GWEP, anyone? ) but ScoGov has been pouring money into a small number of so-called strategic roads.

 

[alangla]

I can assure you it wasn’t flawless. Quite farcical at times through the Argyle Line in fact, but I can see why when compared to Abellio it would seem so. First at least made plenty of effort in comparison.

Yep. Sundays on the North Clyde were a bit of a disaster as well, especially with swimming at Tollcross (Carntyne) as well as indoor stuff at the Emirates (Bellgrove). Mobbed trains coming through from Edinburgh leaving people behind and running late, followed by empty trains coming from Airdrie up their backside. Why a Saturday TT wasn’t run, or the Airdrie put out first is beyond me.

 

[PG]

I believe that a greater proportion of the infrastructure budget has been spent on road vs rail in Scotland than in England.

If you, or anyone else, has figures to prove this it would be interesting to see them. It might help others with their efforts to sway the balance in the future...

 

[Bald Rick]

Actually I believe that a greater proportion of the infrastructure budget has been spent on road vs rail in Scotland than in England. It may have been better spent in Scotland (GWEP, anyone? ) but ScoGov has been pouring money into a small number of so-called strategic roads.

If you, or anyone else, has figures to prove this it would be interesting to see them. It might help others with their efforts to sway the balance in the future...

the Scotland Transport Budget suggests that more is spent on rail than road, by quite a margin, both in capital and operating costs.

Scottish Budget 2022 to 2023

The Scottish Budget sets out the Scottish Government’s proposed spending and tax plans for 2022 to 2023, as presented to the Scottish Parliament.

www.gov.scot

 

[InOban]

That's going forward.

 

[PG]

the Scotland Transport Budget suggests that more is spent on rail than road, by quite a margin, night in capital and operating costs.

Scottish Budget 2022 to 2023

The Scottish Budget sets out the Scottish Government’s proposed spending and tax plans for 2022 to 2023, as presented to the Scottish Parliament.

www.gov.scot

Thanks, and again I stand corrected

 

[Christmas]

I hope the May timetables reflect the increasing passenger numbers, especially in the evenings around the Glasgow area. Granted, commuters have been slow to return but leisure traffic is every bit as busy as pre Covid.

Observing evening departures to Ayrshire and Inverclyde shows trains leaving Glasgow Central with passengers standing. An hourly service on these routes simply isn't good enough anymore. Sadly I think the hand Transport Scotland is going to limit the railway from getting back to the way things were.

 

[Ex-controller]

It’s not, they’re largely remaining as is in the Glasgow area.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I hope the May timetables reflect the increasing passenger numbers, especially in the evenings around the Glasgow area. Granted, commuters have been slow to return but leisure traffic is every bit as busy as pre Covid.

Observing evening departures to Ayrshire and Inverclyde shows trains leaving Glasgow Central with passengers standing. An hourly service on these routes simply isn't good enough anymore. Sadly I think the hand Transport Scotland is going to limit the railway from getting back to the way things were.

Even as 7 carriages, an hourly Ayr train is still relatively packed.

A busy route that’s gone from 4tph all day, from 2tph in the evenings to 1tph, as well as the Ardrossan services which are also 1tph, meaning a 2tph (within 15 minutes) between Glasgow and Kilwinning.

It’s dismal.

 

[Blindtraveler]

It was my understanding that there is a whole load of cuts in the Strathclyde area in particular in the evenings and weekends? If this is not the case and I'm behind then it's welcome news but last I heard there was a lot of concern about the serious reduction in service levels to that not seen since the 80s


Last day of abellio tomorrow, anyone going for a final ride before SNP rail takes over and makes a situation probably worse?

 

[Falcon1200]

A busy route that’s gone from 4tph all day, from 2tph in the evenings to 1tph, as well as the Ardrossan services which are also 1tph, meaning a 2tph (within 15 minutes) between Glasgow and Kilwinning.

It’s dismal.

It is indeed. Ayr, surely the most important destination on the Ayrshire lines, now has a dreadful service with most of the fasts withdrawn, with the remaining trains calling at all stations between Ayr and Paisley Gilmour St ! And on the south side of Glasgow, Cathcart Circle services have been decimated and Neilston and Newtons reduced to hourly in the evening, just when the railway should be encouraging leisure, ie off-peak, travel.

 

[Ex-controller]

It is indeed. Ayr, surely the most important destination on the Ayrshire lines, now has a dreadful service with most of the fasts withdrawn, with the remaining trains calling at all stations between Ayr and Paisley Gilmour St ! And on the south side of Glasgow, Cathcart Circle services have been decimated and Neilston and Newtons reduced to hourly in the evening, just when the railway should be encouraging leisure, ie off-peak, travel.

It’s absolutely laughable, a sign of senior management either not knowing what happens on the ground (no research) or just being told to cut back regardless of consequences.

Very much suspect it’s the latter with eyes and ears being closed so that consequences can be ignored. Meanwhile they bleat on about moving towards net zero in 2032 whilst driving people to car usage today.

When one of Transport Scotland’s principal methods for tackling climate change is to encourage less travel, the context for the current approach becomes clear.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Ultimately it will be the bus and coach companies, car hire firms and perhaps to a lesser extent taxi drivers and outfits, especially those with suitable fleets and workforce prepared to do motorway dual carriageway and a road mid to long distance work who will be the winners here. Some side benefit perhaps also to accommodation providers and assorted services and suppliers who might get bookings out of those who would, for example have previously gone home from Glasgow after theatre trip or sports match but now decide to overnight due to to the truly appalling level of service but I don't think that situation will last long as like I say the assorted bus and coach providers either existing or new will come along and offer solutions to to people's travel that simply make ScotRail like others I suspect they've simply been told to wield the axe and are are switched off to the complaints and consequences and and general and pleasantness which is already t-shirt showing itself as a result


I know that a lot of other areas have also had cutbacks across the UK but this is one of the ones that seems more pronounced and certainly far less thought through. On southeastern and Southern for example there has been some light pruning in terms of lesser used services and routes but no wholescale slashing like this transport Scotland and Scottish government look very very silly

 

[Davester50]

The cynic in me thinks that getting the cuts in while it's those bad private operators in charge, so they can restore services when the TS Rail are in charge for a quick "look at us - we're running more trains" win is likely.

 

[Falcon1200]

It’s absolutely laughable, a sign of senior management either not knowing what happens on the ground (no research) or just being told to cut back regardless of consequences.

Given that the major fall in passenger numbers has been commuting, rather than leisure travel, the logical course of action would for me be removing peak-hour extras and running the basic timetable throughout the day, while allowing for strengthening at appropriate times, thus providing a simple and efficient service all day. Instead we have ludicrous situations such as, already mentioned, the dreadful Glasgow/Ayr service, and in my area for example the removal of the 0841 Neilston-Glasgow C train, meaning a gap from 0824 to 0905 on that route.

 

[Ex-controller]

Given that the major fall in passenger numbers has been commuting, rather than leisure travel, the logical course of action would for me be removing peak-hour extras and running the basic timetable throughout the day, while allowing for strengthening at appropriate times, thus providing a simple and efficient service all day. Instead we have ludicrous situations such as, already mentioned, the dreadful Glasgow/Ayr service, and in my area for example the removal of the 0841 Neilston-Glasgow C train, meaning a gap from 0824 to 0905 on that route.

In fairness there is some commuting from Glasgow and the evening peak can be especially busy (no ticket restrictions in the evening peak, unlike the morning) so I can see the argument for some peak extras at this time, but in general I agree that a consistent service based on pre covid off peak patterns would likely be most logical.

If pre-covid patterns were still too much, there are still better options there. The evening Ayrshire coast timetable could be reintroduced during the day (as it was previously operated) for example). And I agree, a 40 minute gap on the Neilston line towards the city, at any time let alone the morning peak, seems a bit daft.

Then there’s the hourly service on the Western side of the Cathcart circle, which includes Langside and Maxwell Park, stations with no immediate alternative public transport. For all their talk of net zero by 2032 or whenever, decisions like these do the opposite. Nobody who lives in those places is organising even part of their day around an hourly train service - they’ll just drive. I think this is the weakest daytime service there’s ever been on these routes, and certainly so since electrification in the 1960s. But if you try asking anyone about it you just get platitudes about covid and the need to reduce costs.

The only reasoning I can think for the way they’ve done it is that they don’t want to mess the plan up too much so that it’s easy to reintroduce the pre covid timetable at a later date, which if correct, is a reason to be optimistic. Nothing else I’ve seen this far suggests this is the case though.

 

[Blindtraveler]

If anything it's going to get worse rather than better. I haven't been following the action today but have SNP rail hit any major obstacles running today's service yet? Part of me wants to troll back through rtt to see if I can find what their first cancel train was but the other part of me can't be bothered

 

[beefqueen]

Interesting reading about the Glasgow - Ayr service. I’m someone who lives in London, having left Glasgow 25 years ago. However, my parents live in Prestwick so I am a regular visitor to Ayrshire and use the train.

I visited last weekend and still found the frequency and speed of the Glasgow - Ayr service to be reasonable (they seem to run limited-stop services on Saturdays?). What I was struck by, however, was just how filthy the trains were. Despite being out of service in Ayr for some time, it was clear that no rubbish collection was done at any time on the trains. I’ve never seen trains in worse condition than I did last weekend; it was incredibly off-putting.

Was this par for the course for Abellio? Do people think it will improve post-nationalisation?

 

[Stathern Jc]

I still suspect it's a folorn hope to think that we might see catering beyond a trolley with a flask that's lukewarm after a couple of hours, and insuffucient supplies for a reasonably long journey. I know it's often been said, but it is totally unsuitable journeys over 3 hours.

I expect getting the Edinburgh-Glasgow intervals down to 15 minutes will be more important to them than providing an attractive service elsewhere.

Edit - 2nd April:
Definitely agree with #Takno that 30 minute E-G service interval is unduly thin and imagine that 20 minutes would cover post Covid levels, though they remain to be seen. However, I would be surprised if 15 minutes isn't an aspiration to give an excuse for much trumpeting.

 

[takno]

I still suspect it's a folorn hope to think that we might see catering beyond a trolley with a flask that's lukewarm after a couple of hours, and insuffucient supplies for a reasonably long journey. I know it's often been said, but it is totally unsuitable journeys over 3 hours.

I expect getting the Edinburgh-Glasgow intervals down to 15 minutes will be more important to them than providing an attractive service elsewhere.

Realistically cutting the E-G frequency to 30 minutes is a case of shooting the goose that lays the golden egg. If the experience at my company is the same as in other places, it has also led to a massive increase in car usage. Much as I'd like to see a better quality of loss-making catering on the Aberdeen and Inverness routes, it would be madness to prioritize it over getting the E-G service back up to scratch

 

[Blindtraveler]

This retrograde service cut has also led to a not inconsiderable increasing usage of the CityLink 900 coach

 

[Falcon1200]

One would think that reinstating at least some, if not all, of the withdrawn services would be an excellent way for the Scottish Government to show the benefits of nationalising Scotrail ? Being cynical, maybe that was the plan all along. Or perhaps they are discovering that running a train service yourself is somewhat different from criticising those that do, or rather, did.

 

[PG]

Or perhaps they are discovering that running a train service yourself is somewhat different from criticising those that do, or rather, did.

I think 2 days isn't enough time to fully discover that, though hopefully they will see sense and start restoring more services.

 

[Falcon1200]

I think 2 days isn't enough time to fully discover that, though hopefully they will see sense and start restoring more services.

I agree with both points, and while I have no love at all for the SNP it is unfair to blame them for the railway's shortcomings just yet ! However, we will see what difference they've made this time next year, say.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

Tbf there is 122 trains a day between Glasgow and Edinburgh 97 of those being direct

 

[Kite159]

Tbf there is 122 trains a day between Glasgow and Edinburgh 97 of those being direct

And how many of those are services which call at every station along the way and takes ages?

Hardly anybody wanting Glasgow from Edinburgh will willingly board the Shotts or Bathgate line stoppers unless they somehow wanted to travel the scenic route