Scotrail 1st class - North Highland Lines

[VideozVideoz]

I travelled between Kyle of Lochalsh and Dingwall this week and noticed the timetable says there is no 1st class accommodation. On the train however there appeared to be a first class section (not properly segmented off though) with 1 person sitting in it. Does this mean standard tickets are valid in here since 1st class is not supposed to be available on this route?

 

[Clip]

I travelled between Kyle of Lochalsh and Dingwall this week and noticed the timetable says there is no 1st class accommodation. On the train however there appeared to be a first class section (not properly segmented off though) with 1 person sitting in it. Does this mean standard tickets are valid in here since 1st class is not supposed to be available on this route?

Standard tickets will be valid in first class if not shown on the timetable as having 1st class.

 

[37 418]

I usually travel between Dingwall and Inverness and I usually sit in the 1st class section on a standard ticket.

Clip is correct, there is no 1st class north of Inverness so you can sit wherever you like.

 

[Failed Unit]

The seating is not really first class anyway. Exactly the same as the rest of the train but with lamps on the table.

 

[jopsuk]

Which Scotrail routes DO have 1st class? Pretty much the minority isn't it? Edinburgh-Glasgow only has it on the Falkirk High route. Glasgow and Edinburgh to Inverness and Aberdeen has it, as do the sleepers. Fife Circle, the Dunblane/Alloa, North Berwick/Dunbar, all Strathcylde, West Highland and Far North don't have it- Aberdeen-Inverness?

 

[junglejames]

The Aberdeen to Inverness trains have first class sections in them. Whether they are classified as 1st class though, i dont know as i havent got the timetable to hand.

The sleepers have it for those wanting a berth. But seating is all one class.

 

[Failed Unit]

At the moment as follows:
Edinburgh - Glasgow.
Edinburgh & Glasgow - Aberdeen
Edinburgh & Glasgow - Inverness
Aberdeen - Inverness.

The 158s on the far north lines have 1st Class, will need to check the timetable to see if they now offer first class fares.

The sleepers of course have first class. As do the Edinburgh - Dundee/Perth via Kirkcaldy locals.

Many options to ride first class on the 170s as they frequently appear on standard only services, as do the 158s
Many

 

[jopsuk]

I've seen someone once get upset on an Edinburgh-Stirling train when told by the guard that he hadn't needed to get a 1st class ticket- the guy was not a regular traveler, and had bought the ticket from a machine. There is a single service* per day from Edinburgh to Stirling that has 1st class- surely the machines could be configured to warn about this?

I'd like to see Scotrail get bold, and take after Chiltern- remove 1st class on the Edinburgh-Glasgow service- that, or have (post electrification) a separate "shuttle" fleet to the rest of the central Scotland fleet.

*The Highland Chieftain. The Highland Sleeper (Inverness portion) doesn't count, as boarding at Edinburgh isn't valid

 

[Failed Unit]

I've seen someone once get upset on an Edinburgh-Stirling train when told by the guard that he hadn't needed to get a 1st class ticket- the guy was not a regular traveler, and had bought the ticket from a machine. There is a single service* per day from Edinburgh to Stirling that has 1st class- surely the machines could be configured to warn about this?

I'd like to see Scotrail get bold, and take after Chiltern- remove 1st class on the Edinburgh-Glasgow service- that, or have (post electrification) a separate "shuttle" fleet to the rest of the central Scotland fleet.

Good point about the first class, although the ticket is in fact valid via Croy so you could if you had a lot of time on your hands use the shuttle and change a Croy. This is a problem on many routes where you have one first class service again. I haven't looked but EMT didn't offer a first class fare between Lincoln and Nottingham online - I guess that was to avoid exactly what you are describing happening.

BR tried to remove first from Scotrail and had to bring it back because of passenger reaction when the 158s were introduced.

*The Highland Chieftain. The Highland Sleeper (Inverness portion) doesn't count, as boarding at Edinburgh isn't valid

even if it did I can't see a queue of people wanting to travel 1st at that time of day, you get no benefit as the rest of the train is empty!

 

[ObservationCar]

*The Highland Chieftain. The Highland Sleeper (Inverness portion) doesn't count, as boarding at Edinburgh isn't valid

The Highland Chieftain is not a sleeper service, it is the Day service from Inverness to London Kings Cross operated by East Coast. But it's ok many local and national politicians make the same mistake.

As far as I'm aware, there is no names for the Sleeper services in Scotland, It used to be the Royal Highlander for Inverness, Deerstalker to Fort William, Granite City to Aberdeen and Night Caledonian for Glasgow, can't remember Edinburgh's portion. But that was back in Intercity days. As confusing it must have been at Euston to have 1 train called 3 different names, I think it was an important part of the campaign to save the Deerstalker, because it had a recognisable name to all the locals who used it, and other's who were familier with the area.

Back to subject, BritRail pass holders (non-uk all lines ticket) get priority to first class sections to trains north of Inverness. But the standard of First Class is shocking, maybe it's because Scottish (I am Scottish by the way, but I still travel first class if it is proper 1st class) people don't like to see anybody above there station and everybody should be treated the same. Or it could just be that the small amount of people who would actually use it, the revenue would not cover the cost of improving facilities, making them larger and losing more Std Class seats which are already at a premium.

Going forward, I can see longer trains in Scotland, which if space permits, a larger first class section will become more popular across the fleet, encouraging more people to use it. But I would rather see catering improved on Scottish Services, especially between Inverness/Aberdeen to the Central Belt, as many of the busiest services run through meal times, and Scotrail are missing a trick here.

 

[90019]

The Highland Chieftain is not a sleeper service, it is the Day service from Inverness to London Kings Cross operated by East Coast. But it's ok many local and national politicians make the same mistake.

I think you've misread it. It wasn't implied that they're the same thing.
The point was that the only first class service direct between Edinburgh and Stirling is the Chieftain, and that the sleeper doesn't count as a second one.

As far as I'm aware, there is no names for the Sleeper services in Scotland, It used to be the Royal Highlander for Inverness, Deerstalker to Fort William, Granite City to Aberdeen and Night Caledonian for Glasgow, can't remember Edinburgh's portion.

To be fair, the Fort William one is still referred to as the Deerstalker by a lot of people.

 

[jopsuk]

The Highland Chieftain is not a sleeper service, it is the Day service from Inverness to London Kings Cross operated by East Coast. But it's ok many local and national politicians make the same mistake.

I made no mistake. Even if it's not an official name, the Inverness/Aberdeen/Fort William sleeper is commonly known as the Highland sleeper, the Glasgow and Edinburgh one as the Lowland. I know well (I've used it a lot) that the Chieftain is the day service. I was anticipating, when I said there was only one train with 1st class between Edinburgh and Stirling, pedants pointing out the sleeper. Which can't be boarded at Edinburgh.

 

[All Line Rover]

I'd like to see Scotrail get bold, and take after Chiltern- remove 1st class on the Edinburgh-Glasgow service- that, or have (post electrification) a separate "shuttle" fleet to the rest of the central Scotland fleet.

I disagree. Although the First Class compartment only takes up a very small part of the train, ScotRail can charge extortionate prices for people to sit in it! (Therefore subsidizing Standard Class tickets, etc.)

I find the Glasgow to Edinburgh via Falkirk line to be particularly busy in Standard Class (often standing room only) and I can't imagine removing the First Class compartment would make much difference.

 

[Failed Unit]

I disagree. Although the First Class compartment only takes up a very small part of the train, ScotRail can charge extortionate prices for people to sit in it! (Therefore subsidizing Standard Class tickets, etc.)

I find the Glasgow to Edinburgh via Falkirk line to be particularly busy in Standard Class (often standing room only) and I can't imagine removing the First Class compartment would make much difference.

There is nothing for you to disagree with. BR removed it, got bad reaction and then had to install the first class in the 158s

 

[Sapphire Blue]

Having very carefully planned my First Class ALR to include travel to Kyle and to Tain, I was most dischuffed to find the First Class section full upon leaving Inverness. In fact there was a semi-stampede to get the "best seats" by those in the know from the queue at the gates.

The guard informed me that "There is no First Class north or west of Inverness".

Fair enough if that is the case, but the National Rail Enquiries site clearly shows that "This train has First Class seating" when you factor in journies to Kyle or Wick.

(I bailed at Dingwall, had a very pleasant hour there and "did" Perth instead.)

 

[All Line Rover]

There is nothing for you to disagree with. BR removed it, got bad reaction and then had to install the first class in the 158s

Sorry, I quoted the wrong person! I have corrected this.

 

[Flying Snail]

Having very carefully planned my First Class ALR to include travel to Kyle and to Tain, I was most dischuffed to find the First Class section full upon leaving Inverness. In fact there was a semi-stampede to get the "best seats" by those in the know from the queue at the gates.

The guard informed me that "There is no First Class north or west of Inverness".

Fair enough if that is the case, but the National Rail Enquiries site clearly shows that "This train has First Class seating" when you factor in journies to Kyle or Wick.

(I bailed at Dingwall, had a very pleasant hour there and "did" Perth instead.)

So you completely abandoned your plans (and bailed on one of the most scenic lines in the country) just because you weren't able to sit on a seat identical to the one you were already in apart from a piece of paper with the words "First Class" writ on? How bizarre.

 

[route:oxford]

In fact there was a semi-stampede to get the "best seats" by those in the know from the queue at the gates.

Shame you didn't get advice from people who are truly "in the know".

The best views on a 158 on the scenic routes are approximately the middle of the coach. That way you get the more panaromic view without being blocked by the bulkheads.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I have just returned from a very enjoyable trip Glasgow to Wick and return via Aberdeen, on a standard railrover.
The Far North trains were 158s with 1st class sections, but the timetable says trains are standard only.
I sat in standard on the seaward side and had an excellent view (the 158s are ideal trains for the route).

Then I did Inverness-Aberdeen (on a Saturday) in a splendid 3-car 171 with no 1st class section (it was in SPT-livery).
The guard spent most of the time apologising for the lack of 1st class accommodation and was endorsing 1st class tickets for a refund.
He said "this is a different train to the usual" and implied it was sub-standard (though it was an excellent 171 and in my opinion better than a 2-car 158 any day).
It was also regarded as "old" and "not a Scotrail train" (comical considering they are all Scotrail and the 171 was much newer than any 158).

So Scotrail managed to provide 1st class on a standard-only route, but not on an official 1st class route!

Regulars will no doubt know what is going on (ie were the 1st class 158s recently transferred from Edinburgh-Bathgate services? Do standard-only SPT 171s work Glasgow-Aberdeen-Inverness at weekends? etc).

From my point of view I thoroughly enjoyed the trips on both lines.
What fantastic scenery - seals, shags, herons, oyster-catchers and stags easily visible from the Far North line beyond Brora.

 

[Failed Unit]

The standard only trains should not appear on express routes, but it happens. An SPT unit that far north is very rare!

 

[90019]

hen I did Inverness-Aberdeen (on a Saturday) in a splendid 3-car 171 with no 1st class section (it was in SPT-livery).

170


Personally, I quite like the SPT 170s, and I think I prefer them over the rest of the fleet.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The standard only trains should not appear on express routes, but it happens. An SPT unit that far north is very rare!

They seem to mostly work the Fife Circle and Edinburgh-Dunblane services in my experience.

 

[Lee_Again]

I have just returned from a very enjoyable trip Glasgow to Wick and return via Aberdeen, on a standard railrover.
The Far North trains were 158s with 1st class sections, but the timetable says trains are standard only.
I sat in standard on the seaward side and had an excellent view (the 158s are ideal trains for the route).

Then I did Inverness-Aberdeen (on a Saturday) in a splendid 3-car 171 with no 1st class section (it was in SPT-livery).
The guard spent most of the time apologising for the lack of 1st class accommodation and was endorsing 1st class tickets for a refund.
He said "this is a different train to the usual" and implied it was sub-standard (though it was an excellent 171 and in my opinion better than a 2-car 158 any day).
It was also regarded as "old" and "not a Scotrail train" (comical considering they are all Scotrail and the 171 was much newer than any 158).

So Scotrail managed to provide 1st class on a standard-only route, but not on an official 1st class route!

Regulars will no doubt know what is going on (ie were the 1st class 158s recently transferred from Edinburgh-Bathgate services? Do standard-only SPT 171s work Glasgow-Aberdeen-Inverness at weekends? etc).

From my point of view I thoroughly enjoyed the trips on both lines.
What fantastic scenery - seals, shags, herons, oyster-catchers and stags easily visible from the Far North line beyond Brora.

Was you on the 12.42 from Inverness?. I ask as I was too, with my family, travelling to Aberdeen to catch the plane home.

 

[37 418]

I've seen SPT 170s on the Highland Main Line quite a few times, though they are rarer on the Inverness - Aberdeen line.

I prefer them to the standard 170s, their seats are more comfy!

 

[90019]

I prefer them to the standard 170s, their seats are more comfy!

Other than colour, they're exactly the same...

 

[Sapphire Blue]

So you completely abandoned your plans (and bailed on one of the most scenic lines in the country) just because you weren't able to sit on a seat identical to the one you were already in apart from a piece of paper with the words "First Class" writ on? How bizarre.

Wasn't the only reason for the bail, and the single most attractive aspect of any Rover/Ranger ticket is the ability to change plans at the last second.

The train as I said was packed, and the only window seats available were all reserved from Dingwall to Kyle by two coach-loads of Shearing type pensioners who were boarding as I alighted.
The thought of travelling 2 hours each way in an aisle seat on a packed train smelling of Werther's Original and lavender based perfumes did not appeal.
My bale also allowed a Chivas Regal distillery trip later in the day.

I shall be back to do Kyle (and Wick and Thurso) at a later date on a Freedom of Scotland type ticket.

The point of my first post still stands.

These journeys should not be advertised as having First Class travel if they do not.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Was you on the 12.42 from Inverness?. I ask as I was too, with my family, travelling to Aberdeen to catch the plane home.

I was indeed, having come in on the 0812 from Wick.
Very busy for a regional route, I thought.
I assume the weather is always that good in the far north!

 

[ObservationCar]

I was indeed, having come in on the 0812 from Wick.
Very busy for a regional route, I thought.
I assume the weather is always that good in the far north!

The 0812 is a Popular Train as it connects in with the ferry from Scrabster allowing an arrival in Inverness at about 12.15 from the Orkneys. It is also more convenient a time for people going to Inverness from the north rather than getting up in the early hours to catch the first one. It is limited stop, so people also get the impression that it is a faster service, (its not faster by much due to the speed restrictions on points etc..). But the early morning service before the 0812 is still required to allow connections from Caithness to England.

 

[Lee_Again]

I was indeed, having come in on the 0812 from Wick.
Very busy for a regional route, I thought.
I assume the weather is always that good in the far north!

I think we were lucky re the weather. In fact the weather all week was generally pretty good.
The train was busy. We were in the rear coach around a table.
I often wonder why the trains are not longer in Scotland. It seems every time I use them (Edinburgh/Glasgow > Aberdeen/Inverness) they are very busy. Even the 'lesser' routes get very busy.

What did you think of the far north line. It's my last one in Scotland to do. The 8 hour return trip puts me off. I'm saving to do a flight on way.
Lee

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What did you think of the far north line. It's my last one in Scotland to do. The 8 hour return trip puts me off. I'm saving to do a flight on way.
Lee

Well I expected a rather tedious trip (it was the final fling to cover all UK passenger lines), but it was great. Especially beyond Brora along the shoreline and up the long inland bit to Georgemas.
Arriving at Wick though, at 1815 on a Friday, the place was "closed". Two pubs and an Indian were the only refreshment facilities I could find (though the next day - Saturday - was the Pipe Band festival which would have been fun).
The return journey was enlivened by a cheerful gang of 2nd Thurso Scouts off for a week's camping in Brora. Overall a nice trip. We passed the Royal Scotsman at Muir of Ord (parked up for a distillery visit I think, loco was 57 001).

Earlier I had done Glasgow-Oban in a packed and unpleasant 156 so it was a great improvement.
Something else in the Far North's favour is the lack of trees - you can see for miles, unlike the West Highland up to Crianlarich where you miss all the scenery because of the continuous forests.

In contrast my final-final trip that day was Glagow Central to Largs and back in the evening - full of noisy uncouth drunks. This on brand-new 380s which they didn't deserve. There were coupling problems at Largs which got them cross. I wouldn't like to have been the crew. Richard

 

[Damien1986]

Why did they get rid of the class 156 dmus from the Inverness to Kyle of Lochalsh/Wick/Thurso services?