Scotland votes no to Independence

[Giugiaro]

I don't remember being this eager to know the results of a democratic poll. I ended up sleeping over my phone while I was hearing BBC Radio 5 coverage on the results.
I woke up getting to know the results right away, at 6:30 AM.
Even though this has nothing to do with me, or would affect my current life in any circumstance, it was really interesting to see how people pronounced over the possibility of, by the means of words and a democratic poll, decide being part of a greater nation, or assume their identity and sovereignty.

No won, but democracy had the biggest victory. The people who accepted the challenge and moved to cast their vote are all winners and should be seem as an example, specially in what concerns the EU elections. And I also want to congratulate everyone involved in making the referendum a reality without any significant problems. Just shows the courage, honesty and respect given, unlike what happened in Ukraine and is happening in Spain.


Kind regards to everyone and may the UK keep his confidence in his democracy.

(I know, economical issues are far worse. Because a referêndum over nationalisation of railways could, and should, be the next step.)

 

[Clip]

If your main justification for keeping Trident is the few hundred jobs it provides in Argyll and Bute you're not winning. For the cost of Trident you could employ several orders of magnitude more people. Simply paying the current Faslane staff the same amount to sit around doing absolutely nothing all day would be spectacularly cheaper than continuing to fund Trident.

Looks like those in Argyll & Bute really were worried about the consequences of a yes vote and losing trident so much that 58% voted No.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Looks like those in Argyll & Bute really were worried about the consequences of a yes vote and losing trident so much that 58% voted No.

It appears so. Argyll & Bute is quite a large area though, including many places too far from Faslane for there to be many people living there and working at the base. West Dunbartonshire, next door, voted 54% Yes and there are people who live there who work at the base.

It's human nature to respond to fear so to be perfectly honest I didn't ever expect there to be a Yes vote. The 'pathetic' 75% turnout in Glasgow was one thing but there were so many No voters, who then tended to be more secure in their own lives (if everything's fine, why change it?) who then pushed turnout up into the 90% range as they are themselves more likely to vote anyway.

I would say that the UK has been given a reprieve to institute real change that people want and were promised. If that change doesn't happen, or it happens to the effect of damaging the country, then people aren't going to be particularly happy. I do fear that the backbench Tories and their supporters are going to see this as an opportunity to gain votes in England and Wales at the expense of losing their irrelevant support left in Scotland. If they came out and promised that the extra Scottish funding would instead be sent to Manchester, Liverpool and Leeds (while Labour would be promising to keep things more like what they are) then they may gain a lot of support there and that would help them to win the 2015 General Election outright.

 

[Greenback]

One thing I believe is that it much harder to vote for significant change, so much so that even those who may be inclined to vote Yes will, when the crunch comes, decide to stick with what they know rather than step into the unknown.

 

[PaulLothian]

I think the idea mooted this morning of using Westminster 2 days a week as an English parliament and having an English first minister is a good one just to have parity with the rest of the UK.

Of course it's more money and more government but you can't carry on with England being the only part of the UK unrepresented by it's own assembly.

SNP MPs already abstain from voting on matters that do not affect Scotland. If only the unionist parties could agree that their Scottish MPs should behave equally responsibly...

 

[Oswyntail]

Perhaps the most important thing to do now is to take a step back and look at what the problem actually is. It is not that people want more say in government locally - otherwise we would have a much less stagnant local government structure - but, for one reason or another most people are highly cynical about Westminster. They feel, rightly or wrongly, that our representatives do not represent us, and that everything is done from the point of view of London and a perceived "elite". I do not believe that regional assemblies, devolution or the like are in any way an answer - you would still need an overarching national government, so it would simply be an extra tier of complication - but we do need greater accountability and better representation.

 

[CC 72100]

I'm delighted that the rest of UK will now continue to subsidise Scotland, probably by a higher amount than previously

Indeed - so the winner is therefore still Scotland

Can only echo previous comments about it being a victory for democracy. I think as Greenback says above, voting 'no' was probably the safer option (better the devil you know that the one you are yet to meet) and I imagine that's partly what swung it in the end.

 

[kylemore]

Well we lost.

The Good side lost and the Bad side won.

Not to say that people who voted NO were Bad - they just weren't intelligent enough to see they were on the Bad side.

I truly hate Britain and everything it stands for.

P.S. - My last post so won't be reading any ripostes - but knock yourselves out!

 

[GarethJohn]

NO won the Vote by offering Scotland more control if it stayed, YES lost the Vote but gained more power for it's Parliament.
The UK will hopefully now become less London centric in power and see it's regions given more responsibility to run it's affairs.
Alex Salmond looked a far better leader than all the Westminster party leaders put together who managed to damage the NO campaign every time they entered Scotland, It appears to have taken the much maligned(by the RUK) Gordon Brown to turn the polls back towards NO.

 

[Greenback]

The UK will hopefully now become less London centric in power and see it's regions given more responsibility to run it's affairs.

I hope that will be the case too. I always thought that regardless of the actual result, once the referendum was agreed it would lead to change for all the UK, one way or another.

Alex Salmond looked a far better leader than all the Westminster party leaders put together who managed to damage the NO campaign every time they entered Scotland, It appears to have taken the much maligned(by the RUK) Gordon Brown to turn the polls back towards NO.

I must admit, I have a lot of time for Alex Salmond. I can't really understand some of the personal vitriol I've read about him. Some of the questions he was asked were simply impossible to answer at this stage.

 

[NotATrainspott]

The main reason I had for voting Yes was that I fear that it will not be possible to mobilise the whole of the UK to vote for the sort of comprehensive political change that a Yes vote theoretically made very probable. The precedent for the UK parties doing such things after they promise them is not good:

We will establish a committee to bring forward proposals for a wholly or mainly elected upper chamber on the basis of proportional representation. The committee will come forward with a draft motion by December 2010. It is likely that this will advocate single long terms of office. It is also likely that there will be a grandfathering system for current Peers. In the interim, Lords appointments will be made with the objective of creating a second chamber that is reflective of the share of the vote secured by the political parties in the last general election.

The House of Lords Reform Bill 2012 had to be abandoned by the Government after a massive Tory backbench rebellion. This level of constitutional change is the amount needed for the promise of a No vote to come to fruition, but if the Tories win in 2015 it appears to be rather unlikely that it will ever actually happen.

What I think would be very interesting to see would be whether the Scottish Parliament, under the nightmare scenario of it all going wrong at a UK level, the promises broken and retribution done against Scotland by backbench MPs, could unilaterally legislate for a free and fair IndyRef2 if opinion polling suggested that the majority of Scots wanted such a thing but the Westminster government refused to authorise one. Unlike Spain, whose constitution explicitly prevents the country from being divided, there is nothing in UK law that says the Act of Union cannot be repealed.

 

[Butts]

I'm delighted that the rest of UK will now continue to subsidise Scotland, probably by a higher amount than previously

Make that The South East of England and add the rest of the UK including Cymru

Just look at that Map - solid red with a tiny bit of green

 

[DarloRich]

Well we lost.

The Good side lost and the Bad side won.

Not to say that people who voted NO were Bad - they just weren't intelligent enough to see they were on the Bad side.

I truly hate Britain and everything it stands for.

P.S. - My last post so won't be reading any ripostes - but knock yourselves out!

You had best emigrate then hadnt you - wazzock

SNP lost, in my view, because they were unable to answer the hard questions about how they would fund an independent Scotland whist still maintaining the current standard of services and entitlements.

They seemed pathologically unwilling or unable to discuss detail. Without that they were basically asking the voters to trust that everything would be all right! The answer to every question was scaremongering. That just didn’t wash.

 

[Clip]

Well we lost.

The Good side lost and the Bad side won.

Not to say that people who voted NO were Bad - they just weren't intelligent enough to see they were on the Bad side.

I truly hate Britain and everything it stands for.

P.S. - My last post so won't be reading any ripostes - but knock yourselves out!

Wow, thats nice of you to your fellow countrymen. Really big of you that calling people something because they dont agree with you.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I truly hate Britain and everything it stands for.

This has already been noted by your acting of the unofficial "Russia Today" representative on at least two threads on the RailUK website...

 

[Greenback]

Make that The South East of England and add the rest of the UK including Cymru

Just look at that Map - solid red with a tiny bit of green

I can't understand why the south east doesn't want a referendum on independence.

 

[ExRes]

Well we lost.

The Good side lost and the Bad side won.

Not to say that people who voted NO were Bad - they just weren't intelligent enough to see they were on the Bad side.

I truly hate Britain and everything it stands for.

P.S. - My last post so won't be reading any ripostes - but knock yourselves out!

I'm sure you'll be missed dreadfully, just let Salmond know when you see him down the pub that if he'd ever had the honesty to explain how he intended to run an independent Scotland then more may have voted for him, he's the one who was far less intelligent than those that voted no to his unsubstantiated claims

"Good side Bad side", were you one of the 16 year olds that were supposed to be voting ?

 

[ainsworth74]

Do we have any details on the turnout of 16/17 year olds?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Do we have any details on the turnout of 16/17 year olds?

Not turnout but someone on my Twitter reported that 71% of those who did said Yes.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not turnout but someone on my Twitter reported that 71% of those who did said Yes.

Did your contact above give his source for this statement ?

 

[Clip]

Think the beeb had something on it on their website but cant find it now.

 

[Johnuk123]

Not turnout but someone on my Twitter reported that 71% of those who did said Yes.

Sky said that the vast majority of younger voters voted Yes which is understandable.

There is no way Salmond would have invited them to the party unless he'd found out that was going to be the case.

 

[Butts]

I can't understand why the south east doesn't want a referendum on independence.

It's a bit like The California of The British Isles - except seemingly when it comes to Firework Displays
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sky said that the vast majority of younger voters voted Yes which is understandable.

There is no way Salmond would have invited them to the party unless he'd found out that was going to be the case.

I would be interested to see the breakdown of the vote by age and socio-economic groupings.

Should the franchise of voting be extended to those of 16/17 at other UK Elections ?

 

[Johnuk123]

Should the franchise of voting be extended to those of 16/17 at other UK Elections ?

I think 18 is about right.

 

[AM9]

I can't understand why the south east doesn't want a referendum on independence.

I think that many will now want regional independence when they realise that London (probably with the home counties) could be economically very successful.
Even if the higher UK administration had a token parliament edifice located where land was cheaper to build on, functionally, most of the significant decisions would still take place in the cities of London and Westminster, and Tower Hamlets CBD. Then they would be e-mailed to the UK administration.

 

[Butts]

I'm sure you'll be missed dreadfully, just let Salmond know when you see him down the pub that if he'd ever had the honesty to explain how he intended to run an independent Scotland then more may have voted for him, he's the one who was far less intelligent than those that voted no to his unsubstantiated claims

"Good side Bad side", were you one of the 16 year olds that were supposed to be voting ?

Don't be to hard on him, his statement is not without some foundation that extends to this Election and many others, namely ignorance and voting on the basis of rhetoric and not informed opinion.

I heard people this morning complaining that "The Posh People" had sold the poor "down the river". The basis of this remark was that only Glasgow and Dundee had backed the cause in any numbers . This ludicrous notion assumes everyone in these Cities is poor whereas all those in Edinburgh and Aberdeen are rich.

 

[Flamingo]

Salmond won't accept that, he's in the driving seat now.

Not as of yesterday...

 

[NotATrainspott]

https://twitter.com/AndrewSparrow/status/512822907156713473

MT @BBCNormanS: Sources say new powers for Scot parliament will be "extension of existing responsibilities" - not Devo Max #indyref > Uturn?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-independence-tory-revolt-against-devo-max-grows-as-rail-minister-claire-perry-joins-9741966.html

Scottish independence: Tory revolt against 'devo max' grows as Rail Minister Claire Perry joins

The Conservative Party revolt against David Cameron’s promise of further devolution to Scotland grew today as one of his own ministers joined.

Claire Perry, an ally of the Chancellor George Osborne, said Scotland should not be offered “promises of financial party bags”, and criticised the “whole raft of goodies on offer for Scotland that will be paid for by us south of the border to appease the Yes voters”.

In a last-minute attempt to persuade Scots not to leave the Union, Mr Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg promised new powers for the Scottish Parliament and to safeguard the Barnett formula, which gives Scotland more public spending per head of population than England and Wales.

Ms Perry, who was appointed Rail Minister in July, wrote in her local paper the Wiltshire Gazette and Herald: “If there is a proposal to allow devolution of local taxation, as well as maintaining the current level of funding as a dollop from the UK Parliament, then that can hardly be equitable for those of us in the Devizes constituency and all other area areas in the non-Scottish union.”

She said that “cool, calm analysis, not promises of financial party bags to appease Mr Salmond, are what is needed from tomorrow and onwards”.

Tory backbenchers, who have already demanded an English Parliament, rallied behind Ms Perry. Anne-Marie Morris, MP for Newton Abbot, said the “devo max” policy was “not thought through” and many of her constituents felt it was unfair.

James Gray, MP for North Wiltshire, said: “Talk about feeding an addiction. The more you give them, the more they want, and we would be back with calls for independence within a decade or sooner.” He added: “For too long the rights of 55m English have been subordinated to the shouting of 4.5m Scots. That must end."

Philip Davies, Tory MP for Shipley, said he would not vote for the “devo max” deal under any circumstances. “It was done in a panic when the polls narrowed,” he said. “I’m certainly not prepared to give a blank cheque to Scotland that my constituents will have to pay for.”

Michael Fabricant, a former Tory vice-chairman, said: “Even if Scotland votes No, serious questions will be asked about the complacent mishandling of the vote by No10 and the incompetence by [Ed] Miliband.”

I'm starting to look forward to going around saying 'I TOLD YOU SO'.

 

[ExRes]

I heard people this morning complaining that "The Posh People" had sold the poor "down the river". The basis of this remark was that only Glasgow and Dundee had backed the cause in any numbers . This ludicrous notion assumes everyone in these Cities is poor whereas all those in Edinburgh and Aberdeen are rich.

I'm glad you brought this one up, as the media seemed too scared to, because I had actually wondered how long it would take for this to raise its head, the 'poor' would, obviously, have a plan for who was going to pay for their health, benefits and pensions in this independent nirvana if the 'posh' had packed their bags and bank accounts and scooted south, ah yes, it would have been oil and whiskey taxation and tourism again I expect, not to mention all that industry that Salmond had heading north, frankly I'm amazed that the yes vote was so high

 

[Butts]

https://twitter.com/AndrewSparrow/status/512822907156713473



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-independence-tory-revolt-against-devo-max-grows-as-rail-minister-claire-perry-joins-9741966.html



I'm starting to look forward to going around saying 'I TOLD YOU SO'.

Don't get to carried away with your crowing - Labour will probably back the measure ensuring it's safe passage notwithstanding a small Tory rebellion.