Scotland Route Study

[Altnabreac]

Just reading this document.

Is the Fife bypass line on page 35 the same as the Dunfermline bypass on page 78/79

Halbeath line / Fife Bypass / Dunfermline bypass is going to become the new version of the Dalmeny Chord / Almond Chord as a single Scottish rail project with multiple different names.

 

[route:oxford]

Halbeath line / Fife Bypass / Dunfermline bypass is going to become the new version of the Dalmeny Chord / Almond Chord as a single Scottish rail project with multiple different names.

Will there be a cord to permit a Northbound service leaving Dunfermline to route back down over the Bridge?

It would make the re-opening of the route between Alloa & Dunfermline more attractive if a service could travel from Stirling through to Edinburgh or Haymarket via Alloa without reversing.

 

[clc]

How about an hourly service from St Andrews to Glasgow via Dunfermline, Alloa and Stirling?

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/new...nt-for-fife-and-taysides-rail-network-tabled/

 

[jopsuk]

How about an hourly service from St Andrews to Glasgow via Dunfermline, Alloa and Stirling?

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/new...nt-for-fife-and-taysides-rail-network-tabled/

Would work better if the coast line was swapped out with the old direct route from Dunfermline to Alloa, but that would be rather pricey! Especially through Dunfermline

 

[Class 170101]

Surely just use the existing link between Dalmeny and Polmont instead of via Dunfermline?

 

[jopsuk]

Stirling and Alloa to Fife public transport links are currently a bit sparse; having a rail connection could be a revelation

 

[NotATrainspott]

I don't think reopening the full line for passenger services will be a priority. While the Alloa service could be extended through to Fife journey times won't be particularly competitive compared to either road or rail via the Forth Bridge. The aim of speeding up Fife to Glasgow commuting could be served by the Dalmeny Chord, as then there could be same-station interchange between Fife Circle and E&G express services.

 

[clc]

I don't think reopening the full line for passenger services will be a priority. While the Alloa service could be extended through to Fife journey times won't be particularly competitive compared to either road or rail via the Forth Bridge. The aim of speeding up Fife to Glasgow commuting could be served by the Dalmeny Chord, as then there could be same-station interchange between Fife Circle and E&G express services.

In the longer term Fife-Glasgow commuters would have two options:

- change at Gogar for 4tph E&G to Queen St (assuming all 4tph diverted via Dalmeny Chord).
- change at Haymarket for 5tph E2G HSR to Central.

Both options would have similar journey times and Fife would have faster connections to both Glasgow termini.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I don't think reopening the full line for passenger services will be a priority. While the Alloa service could be extended through to Fife journey times won't be particularly competitive compared to either road or rail via the Forth Bridge. The aim of speeding up Fife to Glasgow commuting could be served by the Dalmeny Chord, as then there could be same-station interchange between Fife Circle and E&G express services.

It's further complicated by the Stirling to Alloa route going electric in 2019, but the Kincardine route is an option on where to send services from Levenmouth instead of trying to path them in across the Forth Bridge.

It might not be possible to run all the way into Glasgow, but a Stirling to Leven service would open up an additional rail service from Leven through to Glenrothes, Cowdenbeath and Dunfermline, onto Kincardine, Alloa and Stirling for a connection to Glasgow-Perth-Inverness.

 

[Class 170101]

It's further complicated by the Stirling to Alloa route going electric in 2019, but the Kincardine route is an option on where to send services from Levenmouth instead of trying to path them in across the Forth Bridge.

It might not be possible to run all the way into Glasgow, but a Stirling to Leven service would open up an additional rail service from Leven through to Glenrothes, Cowdenbeath and Dunfermline, onto Kincardine, Alloa and Stirling for a connection to Glasgow-Perth-Inverness.

Bi mode trains for through trains to Glasgow?

 

[clc]

It's further complicated by the Stirling to Alloa route going electric in 2019, but the Kincardine route is an option on where to send services from Levenmouth instead of trying to path them in across the Forth Bridge.

It might not be possible to run all the way into Glasgow, but a Stirling to Leven service would open up an additional rail service from Leven through to Glenrothes, Cowdenbeath and Dunfermline, onto Kincardine, Alloa and Stirling for a connection to Glasgow-Perth-Inverness.

I thought Levenmouth would just be an extension of existing Fife services hence no additional paths required?

 

[Class 170101]

I thought Levenmouth would just be an extension of existing Fife services hence no additional paths required?

With Bi Mode trains it could be an extension of the existing Glasgow to Alloa service.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I thought Levenmouth would just be an extension of existing Fife services hence no additional paths required?

Yes, but in putting together Levenmouth with returning Alloa to Dunfermline to passenger use, it kills two birds with one stone.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Much more likely would be an extension of the Alloa service to Clackmannan or Kincardine. Since the freight line will be closed, for all intents and purposes, it would be cheap to go and string up some wires and do any necessary upgrade work for passenger operations. Going beyond Kincardine is the problem, as at that point there aren't any towns worthy of a station and it would be faster to drive to Glasgow or park and ride at Inverkeithing for Edinburgh. Paths over the Forth Bridge aren't going to be made available for a Kincardine service, since the entire point of the SAK project was to free up paths for passenger services!

Services that don't go to Glasgow or Edinburgh will always face an uphill struggle in that they will have a difficult time competing with other modes of transport. Frequencies would be low, 1tph at best, which is fine for long distance services to city centres as the added convenience and speed outweighs the longer wait times. That benefit wouldn't really apply on Stirling-Fife services, especially since it's likely that your destination will be some way away from the station. In the end, if TS wants to placate the locals they would be better off phoning up Adrian Shooter and ordering a Class 230 or two to run a wee shuttle service at minimal cost. Anything more than that would be a waste, and exactly the sort of waste that the entire STAG process is designed to prevent. It may well be better to spend money on road or bus improvements than trying to get a passenger service going on the line.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

With Bi Mode trains it could be an extension of the existing Glasgow to Alloa service.

It's entirely possible, whether you go further and run deep into Fife would be open to question.

There's still going to be DMU stock running around until electrification is well advanced further north, particularly in the Fife Circle is later in the rolling electrification, so I wouldn't be too concerned with DMUs running a Glasgow to Dunfermline via Kincardine service.

There's 275kV grid connector at Longannet though - to my mind, if there's a plan to re-open Alloa to Dunfermline, I'd put in a feeder at Longannet and wire the route to Dunfermline, and move the Fife Circle electrification up the schedule so it replaces Perth to Inverness and Dundee to Aberdeen in CP8.

 

[clc]

Much more likely would be an extension of the Alloa service to Clackmannan or Kincardine. Since the freight line will be closed, for all intents and purposes, it would be cheap to go and string up some wires and do any necessary upgrade work for passenger operations. Going beyond Kincardine is the problem, as at that point there aren't any towns worthy of a station and it would be faster to drive to Glasgow or park and ride at Inverkeithing for Edinburgh. Paths over the Forth Bridge aren't going to be made available for a Kincardine service, since the entire point of the SAK project was to free up paths for passenger services!

Services that don't go to Glasgow or Edinburgh will always face an uphill struggle in that they will have a difficult time competing with other modes of transport. Frequencies would be low, 1tph at best, which is fine for long distance services to city centres as the added convenience and speed outweighs the longer wait times. That benefit wouldn't really apply on Stirling-Fife services, especially since it's likely that your destination will be some way away from the station. In the end, if TS wants to placate the locals they would be better off phoning up Adrian Shooter and ordering a Class 230 or two to run a wee shuttle service at minimal cost. Anything more than that would be a waste, and exactly the sort of waste that the entire STAG process is designed to prevent. It may well be better to spend money on road or bus improvements than trying to get a passenger service going on the line.

Yes the journey time from Glasgow to Kincardine would be around 55 mins post electrification. Say £20m for 6 miles of upgraded and electrified track and 1 new station. It would be a relatively cheap and easy way for the Scottish Govt to be seen to be doing something about regenerating the Kincardine area after closure of the power station.

 

[route:oxford]

In the end, if TS wants to placate the locals they would be better off phoning up Adrian Shooter and ordering a Class 230 or two to run a wee shuttle service at minimal cost. Anything more than that would be a waste, and exactly the sort of waste that the entire STAG process is designed to prevent. It may well be better to spend money on road or bus improvements than trying to get a passenger service going on the line.

I suspect that, if there were paths available, an OA operator could turn a profit simply by running a leased 230 as a shuttle between a new station at Clackmannan and Stirling, calling at Alloa

Clackmannanshire is a neglected county overall - the roads are absolutely dreadful with average speed across the county less than 30mph. Goodness knows why it even exists when good quite readily be absorbed into the Stirling council area (which already reaches almost as far as Dumbarton on in the West and stretches up to Crianlarich and Killin in the North.

Essentially, there should be a decision made. Either build a new East-West dual carriageway starting near enough at the foot of the Wallace Monument to Dunfermline or re-open the railway line.

 

[Class 170101]

It's entirely possible, whether you go further and run deep into Fife would be open to question.

There's still going to be DMU stock running around until electrification is well advanced further north, particularly in the Fife Circle is later in the rolling electrification, so I wouldn't be too concerned with DMUs running a Glasgow to Dunfermline via Kincardine service.

There's 275kV grid connector at Longannet though - to my mind, if there's a plan to re-open Alloa to Dunfermline, I'd put in a feeder at Longannet and wire the route to Dunfermline, and move the Fife Circle electrification up the schedule so it replaces Perth to Inverness and Dundee to Aberdeen in CP8.

In that case why not wire the Fife Circle (and northwards) from Longannet and just leave the Forth Bridge until later covering with Bi-mode in the mean time?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

In that case why not wire the Fife Circle (and northwards) from Longannet and just leave the Forth Bridge until later covering with Bi-mode in the mean time?

IPEMU using batteries would be viable, a bi-mode wouldn't - you don't want to be running the engines for only a few minutes since they're generally being pre-heated and wouldn't cope well with shutting down going into Edinburgh and being re-started leaving Edinburgh.

You would want to wire Dalmeny/Almond Chord out to North Queensferry, straight through Fife to Dundee. The push should be both routes to Dundee - Dunblane-Perth-Dundee and Edinburgh-Dundee (and Fife Circle) rather than Dunblane to Perth/Dundee in CP6/CP7 then Dundee to Aberdeen and Perth to Inverness in CP8 with Fife waiting until CP10. I'd suggest getting everything to Dundee done by CP8.

The idea of a feeder at Longannet is only to really make use of the wiring to Dunfermline, since there's a grip access point there, putting a feeder there is really only to add resilience to the network. I'd probably feed Stirling to Dunblane and Stirling-Alloa-Kincardine to Dunfermline from the Longannet feeder in normal service and allow it to cover for an offline feeder on the Glasgow to Stirling or Edinburgh to Dundee/Fife Circle routes.

 

[Altnabreac]

I suspect that, if there were paths available, an OA operator could turn a profit simply by running a leased 230 as a shuttle between a new station at Clackmannan and Stirling, calling at Alloa

Clackmannanshire is a neglected county overall - the roads are absolutely dreadful with average speed across the county less than 30mph. Goodness knows why it even exists when good quite readily be absorbed into the Stirling council area (which already reaches almost as far as Dumbarton on in the West and stretches up to Crianlarich and Killin in the North.

Essentially, there should be a decision made. Either build a new East-West dual carriageway starting near enough at the foot of the Wallace Monument to Dunfermline or re-open the railway line.

Clackmannan has a population of 3,500 so any idea that demand from a village of that size could make OA operations profitable even on marginal costs if someone else paid for the station is total nonsense.

The key flaw with Alloa - Dunfermline is the low population in each of the villages. It might happen in future but would certainly need up front capital subsidy and ongoing revenue subsidy too. You may be able to make a regeneration case for it but it is not a commercially viable OA scheme by any means.

 

[Class 170101]

The key flaw with Alloa - Dunfermline is the low population in each of the villages. It might happen in future but would certainly need up front capital subsidy and ongoing revenue subsidy too. You may be able to make a regeneration case for it but it is not a commercially viable OA scheme by any means.

Surely the population of Stirling and Dumfermline at both ends and Alloa would justify the link with / without serving the villages?

 

[jopsuk]

Goodness knows why it even exists when good quite readily be absorbed into the Stirling council area (which already reaches almost as far as Dumbarton on in the West and stretches up to Crianlarich and Killin in the North.

When local government was reorganised from the old District + Region system there was a proposal that Clackmannanshire should be merged with Falkirk. This was a deeply unpopular, not least becuase there was no way at the time to get between the two without going through Stirling(shire) or Fife.

To be honest, they should have made the old Central Region a unitary- would still have been a lower area or population than quite a few of the councils that were created at the time

 

[NotATrainspott]

IPEMU using batteries would be viable, a bi-mode wouldn't - you don't want to be running the engines for only a few minutes since they're generally being pre-heated and wouldn't cope well with shutting down going into Edinburgh and being re-started leaving Edinburgh.

You would want to wire Dalmeny/Almond Chord out to North Queensferry, straight through Fife to Dundee. The push should be both routes to Dundee - Dunblane-Perth-Dundee and Edinburgh-Dundee (and Fife Circle) rather than Dunblane to Perth/Dundee in CP6/CP7 then Dundee to Aberdeen and Perth to Inverness in CP8 with Fife waiting until CP10. I'd suggest getting everything to Dundee done by CP8.

The idea of a feeder at Longannet is only to really make use of the wiring to Dunfermline, since there's a grip access point there, putting a feeder there is really only to add resilience to the network. I'd probably feed Stirling to Dunblane and Stirling-Alloa-Kincardine to Dunfermline from the Longannet feeder in normal service and allow it to cover for an offline feeder on the Glasgow to Stirling or Edinburgh to Dundee/Fife Circle routes.

Would ScotRail want to run DMUs in rakes longer than 6 carriages? If the Fife Circle runs out of capacity and they wouldn't want to, it could open the door to IPEMU. The fourth carriage of a 380/1 has absolutely nothing under it so it seems possible that a similar 4x23m EMU could be the perfect platform for IPEMU. Wiring up all the not-difficult parts of Fife would delay the other plans but it could still be better overall, especially to reduce emissions in and around Waverley.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Would ScotRail want to run DMUs in rakes longer than 6 carriages? If the Fife Circle runs out of capacity and they wouldn't want to, it could open the door to IPEMU. The fourth carriage of a 380/1 has absolutely nothing under it so it seems possible that a similar 4x23m EMU could be the perfect platform for IPEMU. Wiring up all the not-difficult parts of Fife would delay the other plans but it could still be better overall, especially to reduce emissions in and around Waverley.

ScotRail will run what they need to run. EGIP core Edinburgh to Glasgow enables 8 x 23m vehicles (2 x 4 car Class 385).

You can't just wire up the not-difficult parts, you need feeding arrangements in place to energise the OLE, and you need sufficient OLE energised to charge the battery packs under IPEMUs.

IPEMUs also have the unfortunate issue of being heavy - the Class 379 IPEMU has 8 tonnes of battery, and I've said previously it'll be nearer 12 tonnes for a more realistic range. Electrification is about reducing mass and saving energy.

IPEMU is a modification which suits a small number of routes - the North Downs Line is a good example, where it can charge on 25kV or 750V DC and the battery packs removed when the route is fully electrified. It's also good for extending services beyond the limits of electrification currently, something like Crewe to Chester.

 

[Altnabreac]

Surely the population of Stirling and Dumfermline at both ends and Alloa would justify the link with / without serving the villages?

There is certainly more chance of a business case for that route but it still requires there to be a large untapped market of Fife - Stirling journeys. Personally I think it will be difficult but not impossible to make a business case.

The suggestion however was that purely Clackmannan could generate an OA business case. With a population of 3,500 that is obviously nonsense.

One of the problems of the general business case is that all the villages are quite small and deciding which ones generate demand versus lengthening journey times will be a tricky balance for any promoter.

 

[oldman]

When local government was reorganised from the old District + Region system there was a proposal that Clackmannanshire should be merged with Falkirk. This was a deeply unpopular, not least becuase there was no way at the time to get between the two without going through Stirling(shire) or Fife.

As I recall, it started with the then Tory MP for Stirling wanting to keep then Labour-voting Clacks out of his patch. Hence the Falkirk tie-up suggestion. Similarly East Renfrewshire was separated off from Inverclyde as a potential Tory council. How things change!

 

[matchmaker]

Stirling and Alloa to Fife public transport links are currently a bit sparse; having a rail connection could be a revelation

Especially as Stagecoach are cancelling the Valleyfield - Stirling portion of the 8 bus service, and First are withdrawing the 60 Clackmannan - Falkirk service completely.

 

[Class 170101]

There is certainly more chance of a business case for that route but it still requires there to be a large untapped market of Fife - Stirling journeys. Personally I think it will be difficult but not impossible to make a business case.

The suggestion however was that purely Clackmannan could generate an OA business case. With a population of 3,500 that is obviously nonsense.

One of the problems of the general business case is that all the villages are quite small and deciding which ones generate demand versus lengthening journey times will be a tricky balance for any promoter.

The only villages that should even be considered for being served are those directly on the line. Any off the line should be discounted immediately and then its down to potential demand of those remaining villages.

 

[route:oxford]

The suggestion however was that purely Clackmannan could generate an OA business case. With a population of 3,500 that is obviously nonsense.

That wasn't the suggestion. The suggestion was an OA operation between Clackmannan and Stirling via Alloa.

I'm quite sure that there is sufficient demand from near 20,000 Alloa population for the route to warrant 2 services an hour.

One way to get around congestion on the single track would be for an OA operator to run a Clackmannan unit 15 minutes ahead of the Scotrail Alloa Service (and clearing the STG-ALO section). Then following 15 minutes behind the Scotrail Alloa-Stirling service.

So the OA operator would pocket the cash from the Alloa pick-ups and probably get a subsidy from Clackmannanshire for the Clackmannan service too.

 

[jopsuk]

To be clear, rebuilding the route via Oakley is clearly a non-starter at the Dunfermline end and there's only really Oakley actually on that route. And no-one really needs an express route there (which was why that line was axed) The extant route on the other hand, whilst it may need some upgrading, could adequately serve Cairneyhill, Valleyfield, tourists to Culross, Kincardine and Clackmannan.