Scotland - N Ireland bridge or tunnel

[telstarbox]

Is there any reason why a rail or road bridge has never been constructed between Scotland and Northern Ireland?

From looking on Google Earth, it's about 20 miles from Portpatrick (Scotland) to Bangor (NI), and thus it would be easy to have through services from Glasgow to Belfast (for example). 20 miles might be pushing it a bit for a bridge, but what about a tunnel?

 

[jopsuk]

Not enough of an economic case for it. Long tunnels are hilariously expensive to build. P&O run nine ferries (each way) a day between NI and Scotland. Stena run a further seven.

Compare to the Dover Straits-
P&O 23
Sea France 14
Norfolk Line 12 (to Dunkirk)
LD Lines 7 (to Boulogne)

That's 56 on the short crossings. That's WITH the Shuttle services in place. Remember, most of the ferry traffic is vehicle traffic. Unless you built a Hi-speed link from Glasgow and to Belfast and Dublin, you're not going to easily tempt foot passengers off the planes between Scotland and NI.

Mindyou, if you've got a few £billion spare, I doubt anyone would stand in your way.

 

[Railsigns]

One reason against it is the deep trench in the North Channel between Scotland and Northern Ireland (it has frequently been used as a place to dump explosives). Another good reason is the difference of track gauge between the two islands.

 

[jopsuk]

I'd forgotten all about the gauge difference part! So, so many reasons not to build it- a pity, but there you go.

Though if we're doing "fantasy rail tunnels", then, accessed by new high speed lines, tunnels from Holyhead to the Isle of Man and Dun Laoghaire and St Davids to Wexford, in addition to a North Channel tunnel, would seriously scare the ferry operators. Mind, with a load of tunnel boring machines and a bottomless pit of cash, I'd be adding at least four more running bores to the Channel Tunnel- perhaps six more? Have two bores for long distance high speed, two for freight, two for the Shuttle and two for "local" trains.

 

[First class]

I admittedly wondered about a Liverpool/Heysham - Isle of Man rail tunnel...

 

[robert2000]

build a new rail tunnel or bridge to Anglesey. Double track aswell. Then re open the line to Amlwch.(or summer only)

 

[caliwag]

Sadly I would suggest there are one too many tooled up clowns in NI...the security would be horendous.

 

[jamesontheroad]

A couple of years ago someone discussed this on a Radio 4 programme about environmental issues. I think an engineer and transport planner did some calculations and worked out that just the construction of an (electrified) railway bridge between GB and Ireland would generate more carbon emissions than could realistically be saved by switching all plane and boat traffic to the train... the traffic levels simply couldn't support or justify the huge financial and environmental cost of building it.

Plus there is a major problem between pragmatics and politics. Politically there would be huge pressure to build it between NI and Scotland, but in reality the route likely to carry the most traffic would be RoI / Holyhead or RoI / Wales and onwards to London.

 

[NightatLaira]

I'd be interested in seeing the economics of building a subsea railway line from Scotland to Northern Ireland from SW Scotland (say somewhere near Troon) via the Isle of Arran (underground station with elevator for intermodals so as not to disturb the landscape), and then Kintyre Penninsula (somewhere near Campletown - again underground station with elevator for intermodals), and then onto the 12 mile crossing to Ballycastle where it resurfaces in Northern Ireland. The primary use would be freight from the UK to Ireland of course, and you'd need a whopping dual guage freight yard somewhere in Antrim to act as a 'Dollands Moor' of Ulster - but a standard british guage train could do a once hourly passenger service to NI via the Inner Hebrides, timed to conicide with a connecting Belfast/Dublin/Cork Express and it could kill off a lot of travelling hours and costs for the Scottish islanders and would probably get funding from Holyrood and Stormont in lieu of this...

Bit of a mad idea! But so are all of the above... and you know they'd do it China! So why not here...

 

[imagination]

build a new rail tunnel or bridge to Anglesey. Double track aswell. Then re open the line to Amlwch.(or summer only)

The existing bridge has more than enough capacity for the occasional train to Amlwch. Why bother building another one? (or is this with the tunnel from Holyhead to Ireland as well?)

 

[tbtc]

If you want to build a long bridge across Scottish water, then one from Leith to Kirkcaldy would be the one to build

 

[Geezertronic]

I suppose it would depend on the traffic down that stretch of water? I used to do a lot with container ships when I was younger and cannot remember the route they took?

 

[jopsuk]

Leith to Kirkcaldy would be an additional Forth Rail bridge (the fourth, if you only count existing ones, in fact*), missing out the slow bits of the Fife coast and connecting perhaps the biggest single source of Fife commuters directly to Edinburgh, as well as allowing fast services up the east coast to bypass most of the Fife Circle.
Given Kirkcaldy actually faces east, a Leith-Pettycur/Kinghorn bridge or tunnel would be more sensible- a mere six miles long.



*For those that think there's only two bridges- there's two at Stirling

 

[krus_aragon]

The existing bridge has more than enough capacity for the occasional train to Amlwch. Why bother building another one? (or is this with the tunnel from Holyhead to Ireland as well?)

Moreover, the only thing needed to regain two tracks across the Britannia bridge is to relocate a gas or water pipe of some description.

A public consultation by local government a while back gave proposals of placing three road lanes on the existing road platform, removing the tops of the old towers to widen for four lanes and pedestrian/cycle access, or put a second bridge alongside (in the middle of the site of Special Scientific Interest) for the extra two lanes and pedestrian access.

None of these solutions, admittedly, would affect the railway track, as there is already room to regain the second alignment having rearranged a pipe or two. Long signalling sections across Anglesey is a more pressing concern, similar to Wrexham - Gobowen.

As for the Amlwch branch, I long to buy a through ticket to Llangefni!

 

[route:oxford]

Leith to Kirkcaldy would be an additional Forth Rail bridge (the fourth, if you only count existing ones, in fact*), missing out the slow bits of the Fife coast and connecting perhaps the biggest single source of Fife commuters directly to Edinburgh, as well as allowing fast services up the east coast to bypass most of the Fife Circle.
Given Kirkcaldy actually faces east, a Leith-Pettycur/Kinghorn bridge or tunnel would be more sensible- a mere six miles long.



*For those that think there's only two bridges- there's two at Stirling

Well, the Forth Bridge was the fifth Forth railway bridge, a new one would be the sixth Forth Railway Bridge.

The closed ones being on the Aberfoyle line and the Alloa swing bridge.

 

[jopsuk]

That's why I said "existing"

 

[robert2000]

yes, i decided we shall tunnel under anglesey aswell, because of the single track over the britannia bridge.

 

[LE Greys]

Well, with a good commercial case, sufficient funding and political will, it might be possible to build a tunnel or an Archimedes bridge. There does not seem to be a single example of the latter, but I think it might be the best solution.

A suspension bridge would be a nightmare to construct, since it is really not practical to construct the necessary towers in the middle of the North Channel (you can't really stretch a suspension bridge for more than 10,000 ft of main span. Both towers would be in very deep water, possibly as deep as 1,000 ft. Not to mention the problems with bracing the bridge to support the weight of trains. A bored tunnel has the same depth problems, as well as the rugged seabed. A standard immersed tube probably would not work because of the same problems.

This leaves an untried technology, a tube suspended under the water. It would be a lot easier to construct, since you could do it on shore in sections (probably at Harland and Wolff's shipyard). it could probably cope with the stresses generated by trains, and would not need to run very deep. Safety would be the major concern (being trapped in a leaking tube that floats 150ft under the water is best not imagined). It might happen one day, but only after someone else tries it somewhere else and proves that it is safe enough to use.

 

[tbtc]

Given Kirkcaldy actually faces east, a Leith-Pettycur/Kinghorn bridge or tunnel would be more sensible- a mere six miles long

It'd attract more passengers than a Stranraer - Larne bridge/ tunnel would, and be easier to do

 

[NightatLaira]

Well, with a good commercial case, sufficient funding and political will, it might be possible to build a tunnel or an Archimedes bridge. There does not seem to be a single example of the latter, but I think it might be the best solution.

A suspension bridge would be a nightmare to construct, since it is really not practical to construct the necessary towers in the middle of the North Channel (you can't really stretch a suspension bridge for more than 10,000 ft of main span. Both towers would be in very deep water, possibly as deep as 1,000 ft. Not to mention the problems with bracing the bridge to support the weight of trains. A bored tunnel has the same depth problems, as well as the rugged seabed. A standard immersed tube probably would not work because of the same problems.

This leaves an untried technology, a tube suspended under the water. It would be a lot easier to construct, since you could do it on shore in sections (probably at Harland and Wolff's shipyard). it could probably cope with the stresses generated by trains, and would not need to run very deep. Safety would be the major concern (being trapped in a leaking tube that floats 150ft under the water is best not imagined). It might happen one day, but only after someone else tries it somewhere else and proves that it is safe enough to use.

Someone will do it someday I remember when video phonecalling was still science fiction - and that wasn't so long ago.

 

[krus_aragon]

yes, i decided we shall tunnel under anglesey aswell, because of the single track over the britannia bridge.

For the shortest sea crossing, you could reopen Menai Bridge - Caernarfon, and head on down the Lleyn Peninsula. Charles Vignoles surveyed a route to Porth Dinllaen as an alternative to Holyhead, but that was back in 1836 so could do with updating...

 

[route:oxford]

Someone will do it someday I remember when video phonecalling was still science fiction - and that wasn't so long ago.

If we're going down the science-fiction route, forget bridges... Give us Teleport.

 

[jopsuk]

Someone will do it someday I remember when video phonecalling was still science fiction - and that wasn't so long ago.

Hate to be a pedant* but there was a public video calling network in Germany from 1936. Of course, I could be mistaking your age and perception of "not so long ago"?



*this is a lie.

 

[NightatLaira]

Hate to be a pedant* but there was a public video calling network in Germany from 1936. Of course, I could be mistaking your age and perception of "not so long ago"?



*this is a lie.

haha.. nope wasn't around then! But does just go to show. Maybe some things do go and then come back - just look the APT and pendolino...

 

[Nightrider]

Long term the ferries companies on the North Channel might well off load foot passengers all together.
No foot passengers are allowed on the Fleetwood/Larne service.
Going by speaking to workers on the ships, outside of weekends the numbers are way down as more and passengers cross over to the airlines.
And Stena,s move to Cairnryan will all but kill off the rail link.
Not bad going over the last 25 years.
Sleeper trains to no trains at all.

 

[TunnelMan]

A tunnel or bridge at the closest point would be no doubt an ambitious development but it's my greatest wish!
Other than political reasons, such as the fact that England has no interest in Northern Ireland (and would rather see the back of Ireland as whole) and that the ROI will object to any plans to link Ulster and Scotland, I don't see any reason why technically this couldn't be done. It's inevitable really that some day it will be done but it will have to be a Northern Irish-Scottish endeavour. We needn't be waiting for England to make a proposal because they'd build ten more tunnels to France before they'd build one to Ireland. They'd be more likely to buld a wall between us.

 

[jamesr]

I admittedly wondered about a Liverpool/Heysham - Isle of Man rail tunnel...

I know the suggestions are mostly a "fantasy" tunnel, but the IoM will never justify a rail tunnel - the population is only about 80,000. As a resident, it's a pity - the ferry prices are extortionate!

From a practical point of view, the closest point on the UK rail network would be somewhere near Sellafield or Bangor NIR... perhaps a tunnel between the two could stop in Ramsey and connect with the high-speed Ramsey - Douglas tram (17 miles in under 90 minutes!)

 

[Bevan Price]

If we're going down the science-fiction route, forget bridges... Give us Teleport.

Teleporting people will never be possible. Each person contains roughly 1,000,000,000,000,000,000.000,000,000 atoms (give or take a few more zeros). To teleport, you would need to separate the atoms (not impossible), but then reassemble them in exactly the same order after you had moved them. Even a minor mistake (or a Windows crash...) would leave nothing better than a vegetable. And even if it just happened to be possible, the fastest computer would probably take several billion years to compute the reassembly model.


Bevan

 

[WatcherZero]

Im against it as it wouldnt be you teleported, it would just be an identical copy of you while the original has just been killed!
Maybe if you had some kind of wormhole or interdimensional tunnel I would use it.

 

[mumrar]

And even if it just happened to be possible, the fastest computer would probably take several billion years to compute the reassembly model.n

Under current manufacturing limitations. Do you think the Wright brothers would have believed you if you'd have told them in the future someone will make a version of their principle capable of doing 2,193.2 mph they would have laughed at you.