Scotch Goods

[Arglwydd Golau]

An occasional habit of mine is to peruse an old photograph taken by my father,in this case not so old (well, around 1960/61, I think). I had always assumed it was taken at St. Neot's showing an A4 at the head of the afternoon 'Scotch Goods', a name unofficially given to a fully fitted freight that left Kings Cross around 3pm and would therefore pass through St. Neot's sometime between 4 and 4.30. It always had and express passenger loco at the head, usually an A4, but sometimes an A1 or V2. However, when I enlarged the photo I realised that it was a southbound train as it is travelling on the up fast and St. Neot's signal box is visible on the left hand side and Little Barford power station can be dimly seen on the right.

I then searched for information regarding the up 'Scotch Goods' (I assumed there was one) but couldn't find anything, much to my surprise. All the detail I found was regarding the down working (to Niddrie) Therefore my question is...was there a balancing working? If not, how were the vans returned to London? Even the few pictures easily available show the down service (266 down as it was known). If this photo was not the return working, I wonder what it was? Has anyone any information?

Oh yes, and the small boy visible at the end of the platform ramp (on an enlargement) would be me, I know that would not be at all permissible now but it was 60 years ago when different rules applied!

 

[Gloster]

Only one commment: the first vehicle appears to be a parcels van, SR-design PMV (I think), not a goods van.

 

[6Gman]

In 1955 there was a 1935 Niddrie - Kings Cross (275 Up). Probably little photographed given its overnight nature:

Newcastle pass 00/37
Darlington pass 01/34
York (Clifton) arr 0250

In 1953/54 it must have been quicker because it left York (Clifton) at 0200. The loco working was a passenger loco and worked by Peterborough men to New England at 0507.

My guess would be that it passed St Neots at something like 0600-0630, so unless you were an early riser I doubt it's the Up Goods in your photo. More likely an Up Passenger with a parcel van on the front, or possibly a parcels train.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Why "Scotch Goods" rather than "Scottish Goods"?

 

[Iskra]

Why "Scotch Goods" rather than "Scottish Goods"?

It’s an old term. But a legitimate one. I’d suggest ‘Scots’ goods,’ personally.

This is a most interesting query. There are some videos of Eastern Region steam express locomotives on youtube on freight trains in a similar area of the ECML. Perhaps watching some of those closely could assist with the OP’s enquiry?

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Thanks @6Gman and @Gloster...that thought did cross my mind, but were parcels vans attached to passenger trains on the ER? I was far to young to recall....and what were the types of vans on the 'Scotch goods'. I did also wonder whether there was a return journey during the night, just odd that I couldn't find any mention of it. No way would I (or my dad) have been at the station at that hour of the day!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The LNER (and beyond to early BR) . numbered it's freight trains - it might well be the 231 down freight , which apparently was a very fast train. Terrifying when you think it was made up of random vanfits.

Replaced of course by the new fangled Freightliners , and eventually to road transport. Crack consumer train in it's day.

"Scotch" was a Victorian era term......nothing to do directly with alcohol.

 

[Cowley]

An occasional habit of mine is to peruse an old photograph taken by my father,in this case not so old (well, around 1960/61, I think). I had always assumed it was taken at St. Neot's showing an A4 at the head of the afternoon 'Scotch Goods', a name unofficially given to a fully fitted freight that left Kings Cross around 3pm and would therefore pass through St. Neot's sometime between 4 and 4.30. It always had and express passenger loco at the head, usually an A4, but sometimes an A1 or V2. However, when I enlarged the photo I realised that it was a southbound train as it is travelling on the up fast and St. Neot's signal box is visible on the left hand side and Little Barford power station can be dimly seen on the right.

I then searched for information regarding the up 'Scotch Goods' (I assumed there was one) but couldn't find anything, much to my surprise. All the detail I found was regarding the down working (to Niddrie) Therefore my question is...was there a balancing working? If not, how were the vans returned to London? Even the few pictures easily available show the down service (266 down as it was known). If this photo was not the return working, I wonder what it was? Has anyone any information?
View attachment 105385
Oh yes, and the small boy visible at the end of the platform ramp (on an enlargement) would be me, I know that would not be at all permissible now but it was 60 years ago when different rules applied!

What a wonderful picture to have in your possession!

 

[Gloster]

Thanks @6Gman and @Gloster...that thought did cross my mind, but were parcels vans attached to passenger trains on the ER? I was far to young to recall....and what were the types of vans on the 'Scotch goods'. I did also wonder whether there was a return journey during the night, just odd that I couldn't find any mention of it. No way would I (or my dad) have been at the station at that hour of the day!

If I am right about it being a PMV, it is unlikely that it would be at the front of one of the crack expresses as they are four-wheelers, albeit long-wheelbase ones. It might be a semi-fast or a stopper, or a van train of some sort. It is also possible that it is a goods train: parcel vans appeared in them and could be part of the fitted head as they were vacuum-braked.

 

[6Gman]

If I am right about it being a PMV, it is unlikely that it would be at the front of one of the crack expresses as they are four-wheelers, albeit long-wheelbase ones. It might be a semi-fast or a stopper, or a van train of some sort. It is also possible that it is a goods train: parcel vans appeared in them and could be part of the fitted head as they were vacuum-braked.

I doubt it's a "crack express", not least because it's stopped at St Neots! But four-wheelers were not unusual on passenger trains - even horseboxes were run in passenger trains. So yes, I'd agree that any of the options you suggest are possibilities.

 

[UrieS15]

Of course horse boxes travelled on passenger trains; most, if not all, had a compartment for the 'lad' or groom. I think there would have been all sorts of issues if they had been placed in a goods train, although a train solely of horseboxes may well have gone to race-course sidings.

 

[6Gman]

If the OP and his father were at the station around tea time there was a 5.10pm Peterborough - Kings Cross stopping train which called at St Neots and which seems just the sort of train that would have a PMV attached! And with the Eastern Region's numerous Pacifics maybe it would have an A4; perhaps it was the use of the A4 that prompted dad to take the photograph!

 

[Cowley]

Of course horse boxes travelled on passenger trains; most, if not all, had a compartment for the 'lad' or groom. I think there would have been all sorts of issues if they had been placed in a goods train, although a train solely of horseboxes may well have gone to race-course sidings.

Without dragging the thread too far off topic, would the horseboxes have been marshalled the same way around as each other do you know?
My friend has three model ones and I’m not sure how they were operated.

 

[Gloster]

Without dragging the thread too far off topic, would the horseboxes have been marshalled the same way around as each other do you know?
My friend has three model ones and I’m not sure how they were operated.

The BR design had full access from both sides, but the horses had (I think) always to stand facing one way within the vehicle. A look at photos on Steve Banks’ website suggests they could be either way round in the same train.

 

[muddythefish]

I saw this train a few times in its final years, in the early 1970s, going through Welwyn Garden City about 3.30pm behind an EE Type 4 as we called them (Class 40). The train by then was a shadow of its former self, down to about 10-15 wagons, probably half of them fish vans.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The locomotive appears to have a large plaque on the side, too big and too low to be Mallard and the right size but too high to be Union of South Africa; which other A4s had plaques on the sides like that? It might even be possible to identify the exact one just from the position and size...?

 

[Harvester]

The locomotive appears to have a large plaque on the side, too big and too low to be Mallard and the right size but too high to be Union of South Africa; which other A4s had plaques on the sides like that? It might even be possible to identify the exact one just from the position and size...?

Merlin but that too was higher, and the loco was Scottish based so unlikely to be stopping at St Neots (unless it was being run in after overhaul).

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

The locomotive appears to have a large plaque on the side, too big and too low to be Mallard and the right size but too high to be Union of South Africa; which other A4s had plaques on the sides like that? It might even be possible to identify the exact one just from the position and size

That was going to be my next question!

If the OP and his father were at the station around tea time there was a 5.10pm Peterborough - Kings Cross stopping train which called at St Neots and which seems just the sort of train that would have a PMV attached! And with the Eastern Region's numerous Pacifics maybe it would have an A4; perhaps it was the use of the A4 that prompted dad to take the photograph!

Interesting! Again I had always assumed that the train hadn't stopped and was travelling quite fast, but then again if it was Dad's old camera would never have captured it with some element of clarity. For what it's worth, I do recall that stopping trains were on the slow line (obviously my memory is better in later years post-steam}, I suppose New England could have turned out an A4 if nothing else was available, but very unusual

 

[Cowley]

The BR design had full access from both sides, but the horses had (I think) always to stand facing one way within the vehicle. A look at photos on Steve Banks’ website suggests they could be either way round in the same train.

Thanks as always @Gloster.

 

[Harvester]

Merlin but that too was higher, and the loco was Scottish based so unlikely to be stopping at St Neots (unless it was being run in after overhaul).

It’s probably Kingfisher. Just checked a photograph of 60024 taken in 1961 and its plaque is in the same position as shown in the OP’s picture.

Kingfisher (64B) was outshoped from Doncaster in June 1961, so may have been on some running in turns to London for some days afterwards, and the A4 at St Neots looks in good external condition.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

It’s probably Kingfisher. Just checked a photograph of 60024 taken in 1961 and its plaque is in the same position as shown in the OP’s picture.

Kingfisher (64B) was outshoped from Doncaster in June 1961, so may have been on some running in turns to London for some days afterwards, and the A4 at St Neots looks in good external condition.

Excellent detective work.

 

[swt_passenger]

"Scotch" was a Victorian era term......nothing to do directly with alcohol.

Scotch for Scottish or Scots was as you say common in the 19th C but was still in use in England in the post WW2 period, even in the seventies I remember products such as meat being labelled Scotch.

Indeed didn’t Hornby do a “Scotch Beef” version of their container, so presumably that had a real version?

 

[Gloster]

It still appears, but mostly in what one would call fixed phrases: scotch egg, scotch broth, etc.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

It’s probably Kingfisher. Just checked a photograph of 60024 taken in 1961 and its plaque is in the same position as shown in the OP’s picture.

Kingfisher (64B) was outshoped from Doncaster in June 1961, so may have been on some running in turns to London for some days afterwards, and the A4 at St Neots looks in good external condition.

Hm...not sure about that. I've found a photograph of 'Kingfisher' at Exeter in !966 and the plaque appears to be a little higher up and closer to the cab. I'm wondering whether the 'plaque' is in fact an inspection cover in the streamlining, but I'm not sure and have little expertise in these matters.
As a Scottish loco 'Kingfisher' would have been a rarity in St Neot's at that time.
Information on Kingfisher's plaque:
https://www.gwra.co.uk/auctions/locomotive-plaque-ex-lner-a4-4-6-2-pacific-60024-k-2007nov-0285.html

 

[gg1]

Indeed didn’t Hornby do a “Scotch Beef” version of their container, so presumably that had a real version?

Lima definitely did, the trainset I had in 80s included a 2 axle, 2 container wagon with one.

 

[6Gman]

I then searched for information regarding the up 'Scotch Goods' (I assumed there was one) but couldn't find anything, much to my surprise. All the detail I found was regarding the down working (to Niddrie) Therefore my question is...was there a balancing working? If not, how were the vans returned to London?

I am grateful to the Lord of Light* for starting this interesting thread.

We have, I think, answered the first question. On the second question, of how the vans returned to London, I wonder whether the vans were in a specific cycle (i.e. designated vans for the Kings Cross - Niddrie flow) or whether they were "common user" (i.e. used for general traffic and just happened to be included on that working from time to time). I suspect the latter.

But the thread has also got me thinking of what all those vans were carrying? Southbound there were substantial flows from Scotland to London of foodstuffs - meat (Scotch beef) and fish (but that traffic had its own specific fish trains). In both cases I believe they would have used specific vehicles (which may well have been for these specific flows - and labelled "For Edinburgh - Kings Cross traffic" or similar). I know that at certain times of the year seed potato traffic was significant - but to more rural locations than Kings Cross! Jam and jute from Dundee? Any other ideas?

Northbound I'm assuming there were lots of sundries from London manufacturies, from furniture to various other items manufactured in the London area. I know stuff from the London docks was tripped to the Great Northern at Finsbury Park and the like; was it tripped on to Kings Cross, or perhaps the Down Scotch stopped somewhere to pick up further traffic?

There were a lot of vans to fill in the 1950s, so what filled them? And was there an imbalance between the two directions? Were the vans in one direction largely empty?

There are two books I'd like to see added to the extensive railway library:

Assistance Required - the history of banking and pilot working.
What did they carry? - a study of historical freight flows across the UK rail network.

EDIT: Two details from google:

1. The train ran non-stop from Kings Cross to York, where it paused to allow coal to be drawn forward and - I suspect - to have the train examined for hot boxes after a lively run! (So no picking up at Finsbury Park) Kings Cross men from the top link worked the train to Newcastle returning with the same loco on an Up express, hence the Pacific working.
2. A photo from 1962 shows several containers on flat wagons which look very much like meat (and possibly one fish) containers. Which answers part of my question.

* Arglwydd Golau is Welsh for Lord of Light, which would have made a good name for a steam loco!

 

[Harvester]

Hm...not sure about that. I've found a photograph of 'Kingfisher' at Exeter in !966 and the plaque appears to be a little higher up and closer to the cab. I'm wondering whether the 'plaque' is in fact an inspection cover in the streamlining, but I'm not sure and have little expertise in these matters.
As a Scottish loco 'Kingfisher' would have been a rarity in St Neot's at that time.
Information on Kingfisher's plaque:
https://www.gwra.co.uk/auctions/locomotive-plaque-ex-lner-a4-4-6-2-pacific-60024-k-2007nov-0285.html

In 1960/61 the plaques carried by A4s Mallard and Merlin sat at nameplate height, but the one carried by Kingfisher was noticeably lower. However I am also wondering, if it is just an inspection cover on the casing in your St Neots photograph. Also the A4’s tender looks like it could be a non corridor type, in which case it is not Kingfisher.

 

[Gloster]

Although vans were common user, there were some restrictions on and limits to this in order to ensure that the vans available were suitable for the fastest trains (vacuum-fitted, roller bearing where possible, etc.). These lessened as the proportion of suitable vehicles increased, but it was always necessary to ensure that yards had enough suitable vans on hand for any traffic that might turn up. I think that a lot of the fastest goods services often ran yard to yard and a great deal of the traffic was loaded at the yard itself or at a limited number of feeder locations. A fair amount of traffic was semi-regular flows: Sugary Cakes Ltd might send out traffic from a goods yard in London overnight to Scotland on the fastest services, so that it would be delivered by their depot or wholesaler the following day: the exact share of how many vans went where could vary.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Back in the day , the railways carried just about everything in vacuum braked vans. London was a huge production zone with immense and highly organized factories , turning out massive range of products. Literally from pianos in the now uber-trendy Shoreditch area , to such trivia as chewing gum at North Wembley , or Belling Cookers from Enfield.

Take a look at the British Transport Film "Fully Fitted Freight" for a view on the service from Bristol to Leeds for a view on the kind of things they were routinely carrying in those vans - from sherry , to boxes of whistles to iron items like garden gates to bird seed. All what we now call "group age traffic" , all now in the charge of DHL and the likes of Amazon.

Kings Cross goods , as well as many other freight terminals handled huge amounts of "best mixed" traffics , collected from customers and trunked by rail , and then delivered again. Even in the 1950's it made big losses and the whole operation was both a logistic nightmare and bedevilled with staffing problems and with "Spanish customs" , not to mention considerable in transit damage and pilfering. The aforementioned film is a superb record , but one does ask why the 441pm fitted freight , so important , was laboriously loaded in an open goods yard. Not much fun on a December afternoon, under poor lighting - and you can see why it was doomed.

Anyway - some of these "crack" trains were "wired out" by new fangled teleprinters and telexes to destination , a very long message , listing the contents of each van , which must have tested the clerical officers of the day. There would have been a massive paper trail with consignment notes and proof of delivery notes.

The "sundries" traffic was sort of modernised eventually , and better loading facilities and conveyor belts and so on installed to reduce the grinding work of the staff (think of say Tyneside Central Freight depot) , but the die was casr and the end was in sight when the vans were speed limited to 45 mph on the open line.

I mentioned before the early Freighliner services from York Way - one of the first domestic services in the UK - even they focused on Bulk containers of things like beer , foodstuffs and so on. Meat was an important traffic in early days - but did not last long. I recall such exotic flows as pies and pasties in insulated boxes , - but even when I started in 1979 , that sort of flow had gone. (to chilled road transport)

Huge research project here , and some staff have documented it , but most of this era have I suspect left this world.

Yes - always an imbalance between northbound and southbound flows. More North !

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

@6Gman, many thanks ...you have collated the direction of my thoughts almost exactly and @chief
Planner has very kindly answered them. I had not envisaged that there would be so much interesting information when I uploaded
the photograph!
...and ChiefPlanner, you suggested earlier that it could be the 231 down, where did this train originate (I presume it's
destination was Kings Cross)

Whereabouts was Niddrie and what happened to the yards there?