Scot_Rail Split Tickets

[dggar]

Just seen this posted on MSE Cheap train fares guide forum

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=55959399#post55959399

just to let you know scotrail puts pensioners off the train, to wait on the next one. travellers aren't allowed to stay on the train when they
buy split tickets, I phoned to ask about this and was told this was policy, they even said the ticket collector`s who didn't put travellers off at the mid station should be reprimanded. I just hope the person`s who made my 76 year old stand in the cold to save £2.00 feels happy with their jobsworth satisfaction, i`m just letting anyone to be aware of this .

Anybody wish to comment?

 

[yorkie]

It's rubbish, and I doubt Scotrail would say that.

 

[ainsworth74]

It's MSE, what do you expect?

 

[Greenback]

Complete and utter drivel in my opinion. As a first time poster I suspect they are trolling.

 

[reb0118]

I shall play devil's advocate here.

e.g. A passenger holds an Off Peak day return Inverkeithing to Edinburgh (rtn. portion) & a Fife Concession day return from Leuchars to Inverkeithing (again rtn. portion) and is on an express service from Edinburgh to Leuchars that does not call at Inverkeithing.

Prior to departure the guard makes an announcement that certain tickets are not valid on this particular train including combination tickets where the train does not call at the station where the passenger changes from one ticket to the other (seasons/rovers excepted), this specifically excludes Fife Concession tickets as the train does not call at Inverkeithing, the guard also states that any passenger not sure as to the validity of their tickets should speak to him prior to departure, & states his location.

The said passenger, holding a combination ticket where he changes from one ticket to the other at a station where the train does not stop, approaches the guard and is told that his tickets are not valid for this train, notwithstanding the fact that the man on the platform stated that this train was the next train to Leuchars, but is told, however, the time & platform of the next semi-fast service that would be valid with his ticket combination. He is also informed how much in excess fares would be required to make his ticket combination valid for the train he is currently on.

The passenger does not wish to pay any extra fare and leaves the train, he and/or his relative(s) feel that he has been thrown off the train and forced to wait for a slower service. The passenger's relative contacts customer services on their behalf to confirm the policy re combination tickets, and is given the information that the guard was correct in his implementation of the rules. This, in the passenger's and their relatives viewpoint, confirms the railway's policy of throwing pensioners of the train.

Now, there is a well known Scottish song "You cannae throw your Granny off the bus" - this could equally apply to trains in Scotland - In my view there are very, very few pensioners asked to leave trains due to ticketing issues. The worst that may happen is a TIR form but I assume the normal course of action would be - "advice given re ticket validity for future travel"

I believe that the OP's post is a misrepresentation, (I will let the forum decide is it is an understandable misrepresentation), of the system & policies in place re combination tickets. I would like to know from the OP the specific journey travelled & the specific combination of tickets held for your example given. Only then, subject to further clarification if necessary, can we comment fully on the alleged incident.

Looking forward to your reply.............

 

[dggar]

........
I believe that the OP's post is a misrepresentation, (I will let the forum decide is it is an understandable misrepresentation), of the system & policies in place re combination tickets. I would like to know from the OP the specific journey travelled & the specific combination of tickets held for your example given. Only then, subject to further clarification if necessary, can we comment fully on the alleged incident.

Looking forward to your reply.............

I trust you mean the person who posted on MSE when you refer to the OP.

Questions have been raised on MSE by posters requesting more detail.

I think Greenback has the correct measure of the OP on MSE.

 

[michael769]

Given the variable quality of responses I have had from Scotrails CS folks, I regret to say that such a response from them is entirely credible.

Having said that I agree that this is not official policy.

I also accept the view of reb0118 that the report in question is somewhat one-sided and may not be an accurate representation of what happened, especially as in my experience as the majority of on train staff on Scotrail tend to give the benefit of the doubt to passengers whenever there is any ambiguity. I too do not find it credible overall.

 

[reb0118]

I trust you mean the person who posted on MSE when you refer to the OP.

Questions have been raised on MSE by posters requesting more detail.

I think Greenback has the correct measure of the OP on MSE.

Yes, of course I do. Sorry for any confusion I did not make it very clear - however in my defence it was very early in the morning & I did add that section as an afterthought.

Cheers

 

[dggar]

A reply from the origonal poster on MSE has appeared
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=56184273#post56184273

hi sorry for delay in replying.
my mum gets Edinburgh to Glasgow line train, from Caldercruix to Airdrie which is the next stop, cost for return £1.10
On approaching Airdrie she asks to buy ticket to Glasgow cost for return£1.10 . Ticket inspector tells her she cannot do this and says she must leave train which my mum willingly does then re-enters train , inspector says she cannot reboard this train stating she will have to wait 10 mins for next train.
This has happened twice with 1 male and 1 female (jobsworth hitler) ticket collector/inspectors.I know as my mum does she can pay £4.40 return from Caldercruix to Glasgow but being a pensioner she saves the £2.20 for her tea. As for whom I spoke to on phone I cant remember their name but it was scotrail 08456015929 that is what I was told " this was policy, they even said the ticket collector's who didn't put travellers off at the mid station should be reprimanded " btw my mum doesn't keep too well and has been told to stay out of the cold. Which is the only reason I wrote this
thanks

 

[clagmonster]

I have put a reply up on MSE. I suspect that what has happened is the passenger has had an opportunity to purchase the second ticket at a previous pass through the train buy the TTI, and that is what has caused the incident. If however, this was the first time the passenger had seen the TTI, the TTI is wrong as there is no booking office at Caldercruix, only a TVM, so the ticket would not be available at the origin station.

 

[reb0118]

Passengers with "Strathclyde" concession cards are not permitted to use split ticketing to circumvent the flat fare zone. This is a SPT rule and any passenger with concerns re. this matter should contact their relevant council.

The railway has been instructed not to issue combination fares to passengers with Strathclyde cards who are trying to circumvent the flat fare zone tickets by SPT.

Ticket machines are audited for this purpose and I have been told that staff issuing said tickets may be disciplined as SPT may withhold the "difference" in fares for any tickets issued to circumvent the flat fare zone.

SPT view this as an abstraction of revenue from the councils' transportation budget.

I am not registered with MSE but if anyone wishes to re post this information there then feel free.

 

[34D]

Passengers with "Strathclyde" concession cards are not permitted to use split ticketing to circumvent the flat fare zone. This is a SPT rule and any passenger with concerns re. this matter should contact their relevant council.

The railway has been instructed not to issue combination fares to passengers with Strathclyde cards who are trying to circumvent the flat fare zone tickets by SPT.

Ticket machines are audited for this purpose and I have been told that staff issuing said tickets may be disciplined as SPT may withhold the "difference" in fares for any tickets issued to circumvent the flat fare zone.

SPT view this as an abstraction of revenue from the councils' transportation budget.

I am not registered with MSE but if anyone wishes to re post this information there then feel free.

But this would be contrary to the NRCOC clause 19, surely?

Can tickets be booked online or at TVMs, or are they only available at ticket offices/on train?

 

[reb0118]

But this would be contrary to the NRCOC clause 19, surely?

I thought about that after posting. I genuinely do not know whose conditions would take precedence. The railway only implements the scheme as agents for SPT and as I suppose as the SPT issue the cards they can decide on how the scheme is administered. We have been told to refer passengers with complaints/comments about concessionary travel schemes to their local councils. I suppose if you as a passenger were desperate for a split ticket you could always purchase them without a discount.

Can tickets be booked online or at TVMs, or are they only available at ticket offices/on train?

No, only from BOs or on train. I believe that SPT also allow concessionary tickets to be purchased on board at no penalty even if boarding at a staffed station - also contrary to the NRCOC - but in the passengers favour this time.

I have heard it was the local councils who blocked the introduction of concessionary discounts from TVMs. As agents for the council the railway must ensure that only the appropriate card holders obtain the discount - a TVM cannot check that you hold an appropriate card - yet!

 

[michael769]

I guess the question is can tickets be issued subject to conditions that override the NCoC? My guess is that they probably can, but only if reasonable steps are taken to notify the passenger of the variation....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The SPT Rules are at http://www.spt.co.uk/travelcards/concessions/

Rail
All concessionary rail journeys have to start and end at a station inside the Strathclyde scheme’s boundaries.

This would seem to preclude using split ticketing to extend a journey beyond the boundaries. IMO trying to do so would violate the conditions under which a concessionary fare is issued and in theory render the concessionary ticket invalid.

 

[yorkie]

I don't think it is right that the TOCs can ignore the NRCoC on a whim. If TOCs want passengers to adhere to Conditions, then they should also do likewise.

I'd be interested to see is if someone buys the tickets in advance, fully complies with the NRCoC and refuses to alight from the train, Would Scotrail want to try their luck in Court?

COMBINATION OF TICKETS RETAIL
COMPLIANCE AND UNDERSTANDING OF
CONDITION 17 OF THE NATIONAL RAIL
CONDITIONS OF CARRIAGE (NRCoC)

Following a recent court case there has been some confusion over the
sale of more than one ticket for use on
a train journey. This item is intended to clarify the position.
When a customer asks for the cheapest ticket for a journey you are not
obliged to offer them a combination
of tickets. However, if a customer specifically asks for a particular
combination of tickets you must sell those
tickets, as long as your office has the necessary fares manuals,
ticket issuing system and/or reservation facilities
to do so.

NRCoC 17b allows a passenger to use two or more tickets as long as
they cover the entire journey and the train
the passenger is travelling on calls at the station where they change
from one ticket to another. There is no
requirement for the passenger to change trains or momentarily step
onto the platform.
Where the passenger holds two or more zonal tickets in combination or
one of the tickets is a Season Ticket and
the other is not, then the train does not need to call at the station
where they change from one ticket to
another (see NRCoC 17a and 17c respectively).

I'd be very interested in seeing this go to Court, but anyone who taking it that far must not do so lightly and obtain legal advice from a solicitor before considering it.

I would imagine, if anyone did that (which I am not recommending), then the Daily Mail, Panorama, Watchdog etc may well be interested.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If a pass is only valid to give a discount for 'journeys' within the SPTE area, then using a discounted ticket along with another ticket to make 'a longer journey', not wholly within the SPTE area, would not be obeying condition 19.

 

[reb0118]

I don't think it is right that the TOCs can ignore the NRCoC on a whim. If TOCs want passengers to adhere to Conditions, then they should also do likewise.

This is not, IMO, a TOC ignoring the NRCoC but following a rule imposed by the various local councils that together make up Strathclyde Passenger Transport (SPT), SPT administer the system and the railway implement it on their behalf. Remember,although there is one passenger there are TWO customers, as SPT provide the railway with the "missing part" of the fare. i.e. the Railway always gets the full fare - part directly at the point of sale from the concession card holder and part later from SPT as a subsidy. If the railway issue 2x Flat Fare tickets this may be cheaper for the passenger BUT in most cases will result in the railway receiving MORE subsidy from SPT. You can therefore see that it is possible for the railway to benefit from split ticketing too at the expense of the council tax payers from the council areas that make up SPT. These differences in fares may be small but as the SPT area in terms of population covers 3/4 of Scotland they will add up to a pretty penny!

The SPT offer one of the best rail concession schemes in Scotland but like all public bodies they are dependant on receiving a block grant from central government and as we all know these grants are under increasing scrutiny in these hard financial times.

This is not a simple issue of saving a passenger a few pounds by way of a split ticket as in this case the non - travelling passenger (SPT) in effect pays more - this means the tax payer pays more!

I'd be interested to see is if someone buys the tickets in advance, fully complies with the NRCoC and refuses to alight from the train, Would Scotrail want to try their luck in Court?

In the real world most guards and TEs would let this go without comment, I would personally not charge any additional fare nor would ask the passenger to alight, however, I would probably point out the fact that, currently, this combination of tickets is not valid and the reasons why.

I would also reserve the right to withdraw the tickets, complete a TIR, and issue a zero fare so the matter can be further investigated (depending on the circumstances)

 

[34D]

Are there any published details of this requirement (example scotrail or SPT websites) so we can see precisely what their position is?