Scot gov to finally take away under 22 passes for bad behaviour..

[overthewater]

It should have been done from the start, its not a right , its a privilege and the minority causing trouble need to stop. I wonder if this will also extend to kids throws stones at the buses aswell?

Scottish Government to strip free bus passes from anti-social youngsters

Work is under way to develop a system that would strip under-22s of their entitlement following repeated bad behaviour.

news.stv.tv

Young people breaking the rules on buses could soon lose their free travel pass under plans by the First Minister.

John Swinney said work is under way to develop a system that would strip under-22s of their entitlement following repeated bad behaviour. Concerns have been raised that the scheme has led to a rise in anti-social behaviour on public transport.

Last week, Holyrood’s Transport Committee heard of a link between the rollout of the bus pass and rising bad behaviour. However, bus operators – including representatives from FirstBus, Lothian buses and Stagecoach – stressed the increase was proportionate to the rising level of passengers caused by the scheme.

During First Minister’s Questions on Thursday, Conservative MSP Sue Webber asked the SNP leader to provide an update on the progress to remove the pass from those persistently breaking the rules. Swinney said: “Work is under way to develop this and if we were to take the step there would be the likelihood of secondary legislation being required to enable a mechanism to be put in place to enable that to be the case.

“So these issues are being considered by the Government actively.” The First Minister told MSPs the scheme itself has been “enormously successful” and that most people using it are well behaved. He said: “It has attracted a huge amount of participation, and it has increased the mobility of young people. “The overwhelming majority of young people exercise their participation in the under-22 scheme wisely and thoughtfully and effectively.

“We have to be prepared to tackle unacceptable behaviour, but we also have to applaud young people for the positive contribution they make to our society.” Transport Secretary Fiona Hyslop had said in 2024 that she backed proposals to remove the cards from some young people and would explore the legal means to do so. Speaking to Parliament earlier this week, Sarah Boyd, the managing director of Lothian Buses, said she had heard of “horrendous” experiences facing drivers and passengers on the region’s buses. She told the committee: “It’s important to remember it is a minority of young people.

 

[Omnidekkalover]

It was always going to be abused. In my opinion at least you should only ever be entitled to a free pass if you have a job on public transport or cannot work I.e disabled, small children and elderly. However, I do think some employers should subsidise some of the cost of bus passes so that employees can actually get to work same with schools. By no means am I saying that a 17 year old should have to pay full price, certainly shouldn’t be free either. Sorry for the rant

 

[overthewater]

I don't think scheme is working as it should either but for other reasons, I've heard a few kids/teenagers moan about how bad the bus service is and are planning to get driving lesions. So if the government thinks this will decrease car usage there living in cloud coo coo land, but going but some of them there already there.. It just proves, even if something is free.. if its not up to starch people will still pay for a better alternative. Many routes are just not no good overall...

 

[GusB]

I didn't think it'd be too long before this subject reared its head again!

It was always going to be abused. In my opinion at least you should only ever be entitled to a free pass if you have a job on public transport or cannot work I.e disabled, small children and elderly. However, I do think some employers should subsidise some of the cost of bus passes so that employees can actually get to work same with schools. By no means am I saying that a 17 year old should have to pay full price, certainly shouldn’t be free either. Sorry for the rant

I don't think it's necessary to have another discussion about who should be entitled to passes; it has been done to death in other threads. The issue here is that some kids are causing trouble and whether or not sanctions should be imposed.

If kids are causing trouble on public transport I'm not against action being taken, but it does need to be thought through very carefully.

Do you remove someone's entitlement to free travel completely? If so, how do you plan to implement it? You could block individual cards so that they're rejected when someone boards, but this creates its own set of problems; it passes the problem on to the driver for a start. The driver is unlikely to know why a card has been blocked and it could just be a case of a faulty card. Would you like to be the driver who refuses travel on the last journey of the day and then hears that something awful has happened?

Do you confiscate the pass completely? Who is going to do this? Even if a pass is confiscated, you could end up with the situation where a group of people board and one person has had their pass removed; again, this is potentially a source of conflict.

An alternative would be to restrict the times that passes can be used and possibly impose an age restriction so that if you're under a certain age you can't travel after a certain time of day. That'd take care of the kids who rely on the bus to get to school and back, but it would unfairly penalise those who participate in extra-curricular activities and would otherwise travel outwith school hours. I would have certainly been affected by such measures.

I don't think scheme is working as it should either but for other reasons, I've heard a few kids/teenagers moan about how bad the bus service is and are planning to get driving lesions. So if the government thinks this will decrease car usage there living in cloud coo coo land, but going but some of them there already there.. It just proves, even if something is free.. if its not up to starch people will still pay for a better alternative. Many routes are just not no good overall...

This is irrelevant to the discussion. Not all young people will be able to afford "driving lesions" (sic) and will still have to rely on taking the bus. Whether or not the bus service is "up to starch" (sic), some won't have the choice. Anyhow, this would probably be better discussed in a separate thread.

 

[buslad1988]

Taking away the under-22 passes for bad behaviour will help tackle the problem, however it won’t solve it.

That young person can still purchase a day ticket to ride around with their pals and act in the same anti-social manor!

 

[scosutsut]

It's politics, you have to be seen to be attempting to fix a problem, you don't have the burden of actually solving it...

It's a great headline but as many have pointed out, it's awash with difficulties.

It doesn't address the root cause for me. A small minority of under 22s live in an environment where they feel that they want to, and can, run about being little hooligans.

We need to address that, and that's a problem as old as time. You rarely solve the problem of someone who doesn't follow rules by creating additional rules.

 

[GusB]

It doesn't address the root cause for me. A small minority of under 22s live in an environment where they feel that they want to, and can, run about being little hooligans.

We need to address that, and that's a problem as old as time. You rarely solve the problem of someone who doesn't follow rules by creating additional rules.

Exactly this. There has always been an element of society that causes trouble and there has been since time immemorial. It's also not just young people.

The Press and Journal's David Mackay recently wrote a couple of articles about the issue of anti-social behaviour in Elgin and in one of them it was highlighted that kids are travelling into town and just hanging around.

Police searches, underage drinking, late night passengers: What happened when I spent the evening in Elgin bus station

The bus station has become a focal-point for anti-social behaviour in the town in recent years.

www.pressandjournal.co.uk

Today the Elgin bus station remains a key focus from police and Moray Council staff doing patrols of the area.


The Press and Journal spent four hours on a Friday evening at Elgin bus station to see what happens on an average night.

Under-age drinking at Elgin bus station​

It’s shortly after 6pm when I arrive at the bus station. It’s reasonably mild for the time of year, which has clearly brought people into the streets.

Walking into the bus station from towards Poundland the first sight I see are about eight teenagers, probably aged anywhere from 15 to 18.

It’s mainly boys with two girls. Three of them are holding bottles of Buckfast, which are passed around the group.

They keep drinking and smoking vapes for about the next hour or so. They’re loud, but keep themselves to themselves without approaching other passengers.

When they eventually leave at about 7.30pm in the direction of the St Giles Centre, one Stagecoach driver checks to see where they’ve gone.

To a passenger waiting, he says: “It amazes me, they move from that corner over there to a different corner down there.

“What’s the fascination with this place? Surely they’ve got something better to do.”

Police at Elgin bus station searching for teen​

The rest of the bus station remains reasonably busy, in spells, throughout the evening.

Passengers young and old, including teenagers, come and go without much fuss.

Some youths appear to have been out at a sports club or the gym, some have clearly been working, others are just friends travelling home together.

At one point an older man, clearly under the influence of something, staggers into the bus station. He tries to make conversation with some waiting passengers but doesn’t cause any issues.

Some pass through the bus station, discussing their options of where to use their bus passes to head for the night, presumably unsatisfied with their options in Elgin.

One says: “How about Lossie? We could go to Lossie.”

Another suggests: “What about Lhanbryde? We could try there.”

A third replies: “Lhanbryde? Why would we want to go there?”

In the end they decide Elgin is their best bet for the night and leave the bus station again.

I've only quoted part of the article, but it's quite clear that the kids are bored and need something to do. This is nothing new; the only difference is that they are more mobile due to having their passes. If the free passes didn't exist it wouldn't necessarily stop them from hanging around the bus station, or anywhere else for that matter.

The article makes it quite clear that while a few young people are drinking, nobody is causing any real trouble and others are simply going about their business. The caveat here is that it's just one night in town and no two nights will be the same; there will be some nights when there is trouble that has to be dealt with, but I really don't think the solution is to withdraw the free travel scheme wholesale because of the actions of a few individuals. That simply isn't fair for those youngsters who do behave themselves.

Regarding Police presence, they do their best. However, like all other public services, resources are stretched and they simply cannot be everywhere all of the time. I went to Aldi (opposite the bus station) the other night and there was a police car parked there for a short period of time. I don't know if it was there in response to a specific incident or whether it was just a routine visit, but it was quite a warm evening and there were quite a few youngsters around. Obviously there are still some jitters about the incident that occured there last year (related thread here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/bus-driver-dies-after-incident-at-elgin-bus-station.262225/).

I think that members of the "flog 'em and hang 'em" brigade really need to cast their minds back to when they were young. Simply hanging around with your pals shouldn't be a crime as long as you're not indulging in any criminal activities. I can't speak for anyone else but as I've grown older I've become less tolerant of certain activities and I often need to remind myself that I was also young once.

 

[yorksrob]

[QUOTE="GusB, post: 7270878]

The Press and Journal's David Mackay recently wrote a couple of articles about the issue of anti-social behaviour in Elgin and in one of them it was highlighted that kids are travelling into town and just hanging around.


[/QUOTE]

What else is there to do, before you're allowed in pubs !

 

[Numpt33]

Can they also extend the scheme to cancel passes off over 60s who are a nuisance to passengers as well?

 

[stevieinselby]

Can they also extend the scheme to cancel passes off over 60s who are a nuisance to passengers as well?

I was just going to ask the same question! While younger people may be more likely to behave anti-socially than older people, it certainly isn't unknown for over-60s to cause trouble. A rule for one should be a rule for all.

 

[175mph]

I didn't think it'd be too long before this subject reared its head again!


I don't think it's necessary to have another discussion about who should be entitled to passes; it has been done to death in other threads. The issue here is that some kids are causing trouble and whether or not sanctions should be imposed.

If kids are causing trouble on public transport I'm not against action being taken, but it does need to be thought through very carefully.

Do you remove someone's entitlement to free travel completely? If so, how do you plan to implement it? You could block individual cards so that they're rejected when someone boards, but this creates its own set of problems; it passes the problem on to the driver for a start. The driver is unlikely to know why a card has been blocked and it could just be a case of a faulty card. Would you like to be the driver who refuses travel on the last journey of the day and then hears that something awful has happened?

Do you confiscate the pass completely? Who is going to do this? Even if a pass is confiscated, you could end up with the situation where a group of people board and one person has had their pass removed; again, this is potentially a source of conflict.

An alternative would be to restrict the times that passes can be used and possibly impose an age restriction so that if you're under a certain age you can't travel after a certain time of day. That'd take care of the kids who rely on the bus to get to school and back, but it would unfairly penalise those who participate in extra-curricular activities and would otherwise travel outwith school hours. I would have certainly been affected by such measures.



This is irrelevant to the discussion. Not all young people will be able to afford "driving lesions" (sic) and will still have to rely on taking the bus. Whether or not the bus service is "up to starch" (sic), some won't have the choice. Anyhow, this would probably be better discussed in a separate thread.

No, if I was a bus driver, I'd allow travel on a last service regardless of the issue, be it an invalid pass or a few pence short of the fare due, even if I had to explain myself later.

 

[aron2smith]

This is irrelevant to the discussion. Not all young people will be able to afford "driving lesions" (sic) and will still have to rely on taking the bus. Whether or not the bus service is "up to starch" (sic), some won't have the choice. Anyhow, this would probably be better discussed in a separate thread.

If people won't use the bus even for free because the services are unreliable/ infrequent/ end too early or don't go where people want to go, don't you see a problem there? I have a disabled English pass and admittedly don't use the bus as much as I would like to, because buses don't go to my rail station for some reason, they end too early at night and the frequency and number of routes are too low. Just 2 miles out from London and nothing is turn up and go where I live and the unreliability of the few services that exist mean I have to always track them. Not good. The public will only wait so long for late buses that run at awkward frequencies like every 20 minutes before they say sod it and seek alternatives, usually cars but increasingly bikes/ e-scooters too.

I grew up in London, if kids played up too much on the bus would just stop until people behaved. If kids didn't calm down, the bus went out of service and everyone was chucked off in that case. But I think the difference in service meant once my zip card expired, I was happy to pay for the bus as 9/10 was never a long wait (rarely more than 5 minutes), went to where I needed to go, easy to change to a train/tube or another bus route etc and this was the same at any time of day, every day. Outside of England now, only place in Scotland I'd happily pay for the bus is Edinburgh. It seems well planned and run with integrated and easy to understand fares. These things matter, I chose not to learn to drive but we as a country need to stop treating the bus as something only those with no other choice should use and into something that is visible everywhere and seen as something that anyone can use at anytime.