Schoolboy, 15, dragged off train by conductor

[Bletchleyite]

However, I do wonder if society in general has become better for this change? Has it resulted in youth more willing to challenge authority?

Maybe that's good. Some of the old unchallengeable authority did some really bad stuff to kids, eg sexually assaulted them.

 

[Ianigsy]

Maybe that's good. Some of the old unchallengeable authority did some really bad stuff to kids, eg sexually assaulted them.

As he was doing it the driver commented that not only had he been drinking he could smell "wacky baccy" on him and it wasn't surprising he was sick.

Myself and fellow passengers were rather appreciative of the driver's

actions. It all seemed like swift justice.

In hindsight, the driver was probably lucky that the passenger didn’t choke on his own vomit or fracture his skull on the pavement.

I think the concept of duty of care has evolved in recent years- when somebody complained to the local bus company on social media about children misbehaving on the buses, the company explained that they can’t just throw them off somewhere they don’t know, with potentially no means to get home. The freedom of action that authority figures might have enjoyed a couple of generations ago was lost precisely because it was misused and in some cases lives were blighted as a result.

 

[AlterEgo]

Interesting how attitudes can change in 40 odd years.

Is it for the better?

"It used to be okay to assault children, but now it isn't. Good or bad, civilised or less civilised as a result, who knows?"

 

[bramling]

In hindsight, the driver was probably lucky that the passenger didn’t choke on his own vomit or fracture his skull on the pavement.

I think the concept of duty of care has evolved in recent years- when somebody complained to the local bus company on social media about children misbehaving on the buses, the company explained that they can’t just throw them off somewhere they don’t know, with potentially no means to get home. The freedom of action that authority figures might have enjoyed a couple of generations ago was lost precisely because it was misused and in some cases lives were blighted as a result.

This is where a middle ground seems to be the way to go. We seem to have gone from one extreme to another, which - perhaps predictably - seems to have replaced one set of problems with another.

It’s undesirable to have kids, or worse young adults, feeling they can simply say “what you gonna do bruv” and know they can do that with impunity.

I guess the real problem, as regards trains at any rate, is that BTP are too thinly spread to be able to be relied upon to sort problems.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I think the concept of duty of care has evolved in recent years- when somebody complained to the local bus company on social media about children misbehaving on the buses, the company explained that they can’t just throw them off somewhere they don’t know, with potentially no means to get home. The freedom of action that authority figures might have enjoyed a couple of generations ago was lost precisely because it was misused and in some cases lives were blighted as a result.

A few years ago a bus driver refused a teenager travel on the last bus of the night as she was a few pence short of the fare.
She walked home, but was raped on the way. The bus driver can't have felt good when they learned that.

 

[bramling]

A few years ago a bus driver refused a teenager travel on the last bus of the night as she was a few pence short of the fare.
She walked home, but was raped on the way. The bus driver can't have felt good when they learned that.

To what extent should people take responsibility for their own actions? I went to the gym the other day having forgotten to bring a pound for the locker. I had to walk home and get one. Should I have asked someone if I could borrow one, and would it have been for them to feel bad if they refused (or didn’t have one to lend) and I’d been run over by a car whilst walking back home?

 

[185]

I don't understand why the BTP weren't contacted by the guard if something was amiss - they have a sizeable base at Wigan North Western and could be waiting at Wallgate easily.

Officers would be swiftly dispatched. From Leeds.

 

[bramling]

Officers would be swiftly dispatched. From Leeds.

Exactly. This is the problem, and miscreants know this.

 

[ainsworth74]

To what extent should people take responsibility for their own actions? I went to the gym the other day having forgotten to bring a pound for the locker. I had to walk home and get one. Should I have asked someone if I could borrow one, and would it have been for them to feel bad if they refused (or didn’t have one to lend) and I’d been run over by a car whilst walking back home?

Typically we consider that children are more vulnerable than adults and therefore there is a higher duty of care towards them.

 

[bramling]

Typically we consider that children are more vulnerable than adults and therefore there is a higher duty of care towards them.

I have to say I never had this expectation when I was a child, perhaps with one exception and that was inside the education system. And even that was debatable at my place!

 

[ainsworth74]

I have to say I never had this expectation when I was a child, perhaps with one exception and that was inside the education system. And even that was debatable at my place!

I'm unclear what the expectation of the child has towards whether or not a duty of care is owed to them? Children may or may not expect many things. That doesn't change whether or not its appropriate for a bus driver to turn a child away from the last bus of the night for being a few pence short of the fare, or a conductor to manhandle a child off a train with enough force to rip an article of their clothing whilst doing it.

 

[bramling]

I'm unclear what the expectation of the child has towards whether or not a duty of care is owed to them? Children may or may not expect many things. That doesn't change whether or not its appropriate for a bus driver to turn a child away from the last bus of the night for being a few pence short of the fare, or a conductor to manhandle a child off a train with enough force to rip an article of their clothing whilst doing it.

In the case of the bus, my parents would have expected me to take responsibility for the situation, or - at a younger age - wouldn’t have put me in that situation in the first place. Guess what? As a child, I never ended up not having enough money on me that I couldn’t afford a transport fare. And likewise I never did anything that might have been expected to have got me thrown off. As it happens, I don’t think any of my mates did either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"It used to be okay to assault children, but now it isn't. Good or bad, civilised or less civilised as a result, who knows?"

I think to be fair I'd rather be ushered off a train than have to deal with a Court case (and to be fair, if he had indeed been unable to show the ticket a Byelaw prosecution would have succeeded, at least, though I can't see them having the gall to bring one now). But that could have been done without the excessive violence pictured.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Dec 2023 ==

In the case of the bus, my parents would have expected me to take responsibility for the situation, or - at a younger age - wouldn’t have put me in that situation in the first place. Guess what? As a child, I never ended up not having enough money on me that I couldn’t afford a transport fare. And likewise I never did anything that might have been expected to have got me thrown off. As it happens, I don’t think any of my mates did either.

I do actually recall one case where as a younger kid (probably about 12 maybe) me and my cousin had gone to the bowling alley in Aintree on the train and on the way back RPIs got on, and I couldn't find my ticket. They charged me for a new one, which fortunately I had a few pence left to pay (back then kids wouldn't have been carrying cards of any kind). After they got off and weren't standing over me looking threatening I did find it. My Mum wrote in and got the money back because she thought stressing kids out who couldn't find their ticket was unfair - and they did refund it, all 50-odd pence.

I can't help but think if that happened now it'd have cost £100+fare or at least a Penalty Fare.

 

[bramling]

I think to be fair I'd rather be ushered off a train than have to deal with a Court case (and to be fair, if he had indeed been unable to show the ticket a Byelaw prosecution would have succeeded, at least, though I can't see them having the gall to bring one now). But that could have been done without the excessive violence pictured.

Is there a suggestion that the subject of this incident was injured?

 

[ainsworth74]

In the case of the bus, my parents would have expected me to take responsibility for the situation, or - at a younger age - wouldn’t have put me in that situation in the first place. Guess what? As a child, I never ended up not having enough money on me that I couldn’t afford a transport fare. And likewise I never did anything that might have been expected to have got me thrown off. As it happens, I don’t think any of my mates did either.

Good for you and as it happens I also always had enough money to pay for a bus fare (or any other fare). But again, still not sure why that means it's okay for a bus driver to leave a child at the side of the road or for a conductor to manhandle a child off a train with enough force to tear their clothing? Unless you're arguing that children are not owed any more duty of care than anyone else and are fair game for getting assaulted by adults?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there a suggestion that the subject of this incident was injured?

Injury is not necessary for an offence of assault to be complete. I believe we do know his clothing was damaged, though.

 

[rs101]

Is there a suggestion that the subject of this incident was injured?

His coat certainly was injured...

 

[MagisterLudi]

If you are suggesting that the guard’s actions were reasonable, proportionate, or lawful, you appear to be in a minority of one.

As predictable as night following day, that minority of one is always guaranteed to take the side of the railway. There's another poster earlier on in the thread saying there's three sides to every story. As usual, the apologists are out in force.

 

[John Luxton]

Maybe that's good. Some of the old unchallengeable authority did some really bad stuff to kids, eg sexually assaulted them.

I am not suggesting young people should not be able to challenge authority - they should have the same right as an adult.

They should certainly not be seen and not heard as the old saying goes as that attitude did result in so many bad things happening.

However, in return for challenging authority they do have a certain responsibility for complying with the rules once they reach 10 years of age.

In this case it appears that this boy did not comply with the requirement to show a valid ticket therefore he is probably in the wrong therefore he is partly responsible for what happened next.

In my early days of teaching if one had a non compliant child - say someone who refused to move or who was being disruptive in class it was fairly common for the child to be removed from the class room using a reasonable amount of force if necessary.

However, later procedure seemed to be take all the other children out of the class room and leave the miscreant behind to be dealt with usually by a member of the senior management team. This could completely disrupt lessons if the problem was prolonged. Removing the miscreant child was a much more effective way of dealing with the issue as it was swift, caused minimum lesson disruption and also other children saw that action would be taken.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not all TOCs have a strict hand off policy.

For us it's certainly not encouraged but the byelaw is not explicitly banned etc as there are occasions where you need to make contact. Such as in A defensive way, e.g holding arm out to stop person getting too close to you or prevent them from re boarding etc.

And I could see it being justified to place a hand on his shoulder (were he standing) and guide him towards the door with minimal force (this would be reasonable force in such a situation). This is how a nightclub bouncer would do it unless the patron was trying to fight them.

 

[superkopite]

To what extent should people take responsibility for their own actions? I went to the gym the other day having forgotten to bring a pound for the locker. I had to walk home and get one. Should I have asked someone if I could borrow one, and would it have been for them to feel bad if they refused (or didn’t have one to lend) and I’d been run over by a car whilst walking back home?

I am somewhat in shock that you compare this to a girl being raped

 

[Bletchleyite]

To what extent should people take responsibility for their own actions? I went to the gym the other day having forgotten to bring a pound for the locker. I had to walk home and get one. Should I have asked someone if I could borrow one, and would it have been for them to feel bad if they refused (or didn’t have one to lend) and I’d been run over by a car whilst walking back home?

You were going to have to walk home from the gym anyway. Thus the risk was not elevated.

 

[bramling]

I am somewhat in shock that you compare this to a girl being raped

It isn’t for the bus driver to take responsibility for someone else choosing to commit a (terrible) crime. In my view, regardless of the rights or wrongs of denying someone a bus journey, there is only one person responsible for committing a rape.

Implying that a bus driver might bear responsibility for this is, in my view, no different to the abhorrent suggestion some people make that women invite same by the clothes they wear.

 

[fandroid]

When I was a child (a very long time ago, so memory is quite dodgy) there was a general understanding where I lived that a bus driver would never refuse to allow a child to travel, but would take name and address.

It was a rural area so two things applied: there was a real danger of stranding; and there was a real chance that the child was known, if not to the driver, then to other passengers. The latter would probably intervene and pay the fare anyway.

 

[superkopite]

It isn’t for the bus driver to take responsibility for someone else choosing to commit a (terrible) crime. In my view, regardless of the rights or wrongs of denying someone a bus journey, there is only one person responsible for committing a rape.

Implying that a bus driver might bear responsibility for this is, in my view, no different to the abhorrent suggestion some people make that women invite same by the clothes they wear.

That's where you and I differ. If as the poster said "A few years ago a bus driver refused a teenager travel on the last bus of the night as she was a few pence short of the fare." as the bus driver I would feel a sense of responsibility towards the young lady and know what the possible consequences of my refusal to allow her on THE LAST BUS OF THE NIGHT might be. I think most reasonable people would agree and let her on the bus or pay her fare for her. Comparing it to forgetting a quid for a locker is not on.

 

[Deafdoggie]

It isn’t for the bus driver to take responsibility for someone else choosing to commit a (terrible) crime. In my view, regardless of the rights or wrongs of denying someone a bus journey, there is only one person responsible for committing a rape.

Implying that a bus driver might bear responsibility for this is, in my view, no different to the abhorrent suggestion some people make that women invite same by the clothes they wear.

She was 20p short of the fare having lost the 20p. Although she was actually 22 years old. The attacker was 19 years old. She spent 8 minutes pleading with the bus driver to be let off the 20p, before asking if he'd wait whilst she withdrew some money, he refused.
Each to their own, but if I'd refused someone for the sake of 20p and they'd then be attacked I would be wracked with guilt.

 

[bramling]

You were going to have to walk home from the gym anyway. Thus the risk was not elevated.

That isn’t in itself a given. I could be being picked up at the end, or could have been planning to be walking home at a quieter (and thus less risky) time. I do realise this is getting into devil’s advocate territory.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Dec 2023 ==

That's where you and I differ. If as the poster said "A few years ago a bus driver refused a teenager travel on the last bus of the night as she was a few pence short of the fare." as the bus driver I would feel a sense of responsibility towards the young lady and know what the possible consequences of my refusal to allow her on THE LAST BUS OF THE NIGHT might be. I think most reasonable people would agree and let her on the bus or pay her fare for her. Comparing it to forgetting a quid for a locker is not on.

To be fair, if I was the bus driver I would let the person on as well. However that doesn’t mean the driver should bear responsibility should something happen off the bus.

 

[LowLevel]

She was 20p short of the fare having lost the 20p. Although she was actually 22 years old. The attacker was 19 years old. She spent 8 minutes pleading with the bus driver to be let off the 20p, before asking if he'd wait whilst she withdrew some money, he refused.
Each to their own, but if I'd refused someone for the sake of 20p and they'd then be attacked I would be wracked with guilt.

Personally I have my own internal rule and I know many transport staff are the same that unless someone is downright unpleasant and potentially dangerous to have around I never refuse anyone from the last train of the night whether they've got the fare or not. Sometimes I put the frighteners on them a bit to make the point that it's for them to make sure they can pay but I'd certainly not abandon anyone. I'd hate for it to happen to any of my friends or family objectionable though some of them are.

 

[mike57]

What I find difficult to understand is that with just about everyone having a phone with video capability the guard did what he did. However annoyed/goaded/in a bad mood/what had gone on previously self preservation should tell him 'This will be filmed, and it wont end well'.

I wouldn't want someone with that level of bad judgement as a guard on a train, how would he react in a safety critical situation.

 

[Haywain]

As predictable as night following day, that minority of one is always guaranteed to take the side of the railway

As you are clearly referring to me, can you point out exactly where you believe I took the side of the railway? I was actually stating that we have a legal system that allows a defendant to put their case before the courts and this can result in cases not being found as might have been expected.