School buses registered as local bus services

[northwichcat]

From the Cheshire East council website:

The services listed below have been registered as Local Bus services and are available to all fare paying passengers.

Please contact the operator directly for full details.

Barrett's 08450 625 096
Services to Newcastle School and St Nicholas RC High, Hartford

D&G Bus 01270 252 970
9 Wistaston - South Cheshire College - Crewe - Elm Drive
44M Crewe - Shavington - Nantwich - Malbank School
61 Buerton - Audlem - Brine Leas High School
K51A Betchton - Sandbach Schools

First 08456 020 121
36A to 36F Crewe - Haslington - Sandbach Schools (please call First for details)

GHA Coaches 01978 820 820
16 Knutsford - St Nicholas Catholic High School

Holmeswood Coaches 01704 821 245
AH1 Disley to All Hallows
AH2 Handforth to All Hallows
AH3 Bollington to All Hallows
AH4 Rainow and Hurdsfield to All Hallows
AH5 Biddulph - Mossley - Gawsworth to All Hallows
AH6 Congleton - Marton - All Hallows
AH7 Wincle to All Hallows

Mikro Coaches 01270 288 867
Groby Road to Sandbach Schools (please call Mikro for details)

Routemaster Buses 0870 720 2920
820 Sandbach School - Crewe Dane Bank Ave
863 Aston - Danebank Ave Crewe
869 Leighton Hospital - Danebank Avenue Crewe
871 Wrenbury - Brine Leas School and Reaseheath

I have two questions regarding these:

Firstly, do any non-school children actually use the services?

Secondly, if that is the case why don't bus operators advertise this more. If you look at the 27 timetable on the GHA Coaches website it makes no reference to the 16 timetable offering an alternative morning service between Knutsford Road, Dixon Drive (Chelford) and Knutsford, despite the fact that the 27 arrivals in Knutsford are 07:20 and then 09:10 i.e. not good times for commuters but the 16 arrival is slightly better timed at 08:05.

 

[455driver]

Interesting develpment, what happens with these services when the schools are on holiday?
If they are school specials then they wont run but if (as stated) they are 'normal' services then they will have to run incurring the extra costs associated with them but not actually raising any revenue!

There must be a market from normal passengers or else the company has made a bit of a mistake.

 

[Bayum]

There's an X84 service which runs to a secondary school in Otley - when it's not term time, the bus merely stops short at Otley bus station

 

[edwin_m]

Can't they just advertise the journeys as running on schooldays only? I'm sure I've seen this on timetables, leaving the prospective passenger to work out which local authority area was applicable and what their term dates might be.

I wonder if there is some tax advantage in running public buses rather than school buses. Rather like the city tour buses which operate as normal services.

 

[northwichcat]

Can't they just advertise the journeys as running on schooldays only? I'm sure I've seen this on timetables, leaving the prospective passenger to work out which local authority area was applicable and what their term dates might be.

Yes. Arriva North West used to do that in my area so that a low usage bus service on a public route went missing during school term time (it was marked SH - School Holidays only) so they could use the same bus on a school contract. A number of services also have extended services in term time (to extend to/from a school/college) marked Sch.

I wonder if there is some tax advantage in running public buses rather than school buses. Rather like the city tour buses which operate as normal services.

I think in this case it is because Cheshire East council stopped subsiding school/college services except where pupils are going to the closest education establishment with spare places. Previously there were exceptions for things like faith schools.

In the case of schools like St Nicholas and All Hallows they invited bus companies to offer commercial replacement options before proposing contracts with the school to operate the service.

 

[PG]

Can't they just advertise the journeys as running on schooldays only? I'm sure I've seen this on timetables, leaving the prospective passenger to work out which local authority area was applicable and what their term dates might be.

I wonder if there is some tax advantage in running public buses rather than school buses. Rather like the city tour buses which operate as normal services.

It's a right pain on some services especially cross boundary ones to work out if the schools are off - but its better then no service at all!

Huge advantage running as a public service - Fuel Duty Rebate or Bus Service Operators Grant as its now called. Essentially cuts the cost of a litre of fuel so making services which are available to the general public cheaper to operate - paid by DfT.

 

[Deerfold]

Interesting develpment, what happens with these services when the schools are on holiday?
If they are school specials then they wont run but if (as stated) they are 'normal' services then they will have to run incurring the extra costs associated with them but not actually raising any revenue!

There must be a market from normal passengers or else the company has made a bit of a mistake.

They can be normal registered services which only run on school days - just like the TfL 6xx services (apart from 603, 607).

603's an odd one - it only runs a couple of trips around school start and finish times but runs every Mon-Fri.

 

[SWTH]

It's a right pain on some services especially cross boundary ones to work out if the schools are off - but its better then no service at all!

Huge advantage running as a public service - Fuel Duty Rebate or Bus Service Operators Grant as its now called. Essentially cuts the cost of a litre of fuel so making services which are available to the general public cheaper to operate - paid by DfT.

Another advantage is that the work comes within scope of GB Domestic driving rules rather than the much more restrictive EC (tachograph) rules. That and being able to claim BSOG makes a big difference to an operator. Chances are you won't be able to travel on them though without a valid scholars pass of some sort (depending on what the local authority issue) - unless they expect to take fares from students, most I know of do not have the option to take fares programmed into a ticket machine, if indeed there is a machine present.

 

[Shrimper]

Finglands do this with their services to Manchester Grammar School/MHSG/Withington Girls - as they operate along the Wilmslow Road Corridor they provide a little more capacity and most continue to Piccadilly Gardens. The 142 (which ceased at the end of the previous school year) was always popular when I drove it as it was timed 5 minutes ahead of a 42.

 

[Deerfold]

Another advantage is that the work comes within scope of GB Domestic driving rules rather than the much more restrictive EC (tachograph) rules. That and being able to claim BSOG makes a big difference to an operator. Chances are you won't be able to travel on them though without a valid scholars pass of some sort (depending on what the local authority issue) - most I know of do not have the option to take fares programmed into a ticket machine, if indeed there is a machine present.

If they're running as a public service I doubt they're allowed to have this sort of restriction - they should be available to any member of the public who chooses to use them.

 

[SWTH]

I can assure you it is allowed. The 'fare' is the prepaid (by either the council or the students parents) pass, which allows students travel. Many school buses are operated on a tendered basis, with the vehicle's seated capacity part of the contract. If members of the public started using the service then you could end up having to turn away the students for whom the service was intended for because ordinary members of the public have boarded at the previous stops.

If however, like the Cheshire examples the OP has given, the public can pay a fare and travel on them, then the contract will reflect that.

 

[Deerfold]

I can assure you it is allowed. The 'fare' is the prepaid (by either the council or the students parents) pass, which allows students travel. Many school buses are operated on a tendered basis, with the vehicle's seated capacity part of the contract. If members of the public started using the service then you could end up having to turn away the students for whom the service was intended for because ordinary members of the public have boarded at the previous stops.

In that case it should not be advertised as a public service which are the ones we're talking about in this thread.

That system is fine for privately contracted routes but if they're being allowed to claim BSOG for these routes I'd be very surprised.

 

[SWTH]

Sorry, I edited my post to clarify what I was talking about just as you posted. To the best of my knowledge, BSOG can be claimed on school contracts registered as local services, even if they are exclusively for use by students.

 

[northwichcat]

If you download the pdf of all bus timetables off the St Nicholas School site: http://www.st-nicholas.cheshire.sch.uk/index.phtml?d=567441 it shows some services as requiring a bus pass purchased from the school e.g. the Winsford services. The Knutsford/Chelford service mentioned on the Cheshire East site shows cash fares for daily and weekly tickets only.

 

[PG]

Sorry, I edited my post to clarify what I was talking about just as you posted. To the best of my knowledge, BSOG can be claimed on school contracts registered as local services, even if they are exclusively for use by students.

I'll confess to not having dealt with FDR/BSOG recently but according to the
CONDITIONS OF ELIGIBILITY in PSV360 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ment_data/file/9124/bsog-info-pack-psv360.pdf
its seems that, for school transport, some of the seats must be available for use by the public in order to qualify for BSOG.

 

[alwaystouchout]

Stagecoach-operated term-time school/college services (8xx) around South Manchester are available to students and non-students alike. TfGM sponsored Yellow Bus services are not.

 

[Deerfold]

I'll confess to not having dealt with FDR/BSOG recently but according to the
CONDITIONS OF ELIGIBILITY in PSV360 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ment_data/file/9124/bsog-info-pack-psv360.pdf
its seems that, for school transport, some of the seats must be available for use by the public in order to qualify for BSOG.

That's a lot vaguer than I expected but does confirm they must be available to the general public to some extent.

 

[Shrimper]

Stagecoach-operated term-time school/college services (8xx) around South Manchester are available to students and non-students alike. TfGM sponsored Yellow Bus services are not.

I'm sure that 7xx/8xx numbered school services aren't available to the public which is why they were numbered in that sequence. I believe they are available to any student however, whilst the Yxx numbered services are only available to those registered.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm sure that 7xx/8xx numbered school services aren't available to the public which is why they were numbered in that sequence.

TfGM website suggests otherwise

Anyone can use these services, not just pupils and students.

http://www.tfgm.com/Corporate/Pages/CorporateLibrary/School-Services.aspx

 

[alwaystouchout]

TfGM website suggests otherwise


http://www.tfgm.com/Corporate/Pages/CorporateLibrary/School-Services.aspx

I used to catch the 843 when I was at CAMSFC a few years ago, and some of the passengers who used to board it definitely weren't students!

 

[Be3G]

603's an odd one - it only runs a couple of trips around school start and finish times but runs every Mon-Fri.

Except for between Christmas and the New Year apparently, when it doesn't run at all. I wonder who the non-term-time users are.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

A few services which Stagecoach Perth operate via Perth Grammar School also double up as a normal service bus, and also the one route Docherty's Midland Coaches run

647 - Perth - Stirling via Perth Grammar School
834 - Perth - Spittalfield via Perth Grammar

And when the schools are off, Stagecoach run these services as a normal service omitting the school...

 

[Shrimper]

Fair enough; never actually operated the 7/8xx school services. I'd imagine most don't encounter much non-school patronage so drivers like me would probably just assume!

 

[Deerfold]

Except for between Christmas and the New Year apparently, when it doesn't run at all. I wonder who the non-term-time users are.

Indeed - many routes run a Saturday schedule or a variant of it between Christmas and New Year - which for this service is nothing.

Some people who caught it:

http://londonbusesonebusatatime.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/the-number-603-route.html

 

[anthony263]

Millington/GM coaches in Cenf Cribwr run service 715 Cefn Cribwr - Porthcawl Comprhensive school. The service is show on local timetable displays and is valid for use by normal passengers travelling into Porthcawl. It gives an arrival into Porthcawl at 08:30 with the First Cymru services arriving at 08:20 & 08:50.

Carrys very few normal passengers but I have seen one or two OAP's use the services which return the bus to the depot.

 

[gnolife]

I used to catch the 843 when I was at CAMSFC a few years ago, and some of the passengers who used to board it definitely weren't students!

I used to notice the same thing with the 822 on the rare occasions when I went that way to college - I used to prefer taking the 199 from the Airport to High Lane then the 809 to Marple (which virtually never took non-students)


I sometimes make use now of the 712 Altrincham College of Arts - Peel Hall route, to get me from Baguley to Woodhouse Park.

 

[richw]

All Truro College bus services in Cornwall by First are advertised to the general public, however as a general public I would not even consider travelling on one of these services, as the unruliness of some of the students I would not want to be on the bus. However an enthusiast on the other hand may well do, as they use their oldest double deckers, probably due to the students lack of respect to the buses.

 

[SWTH]

However an enthusiast on the other hand may well do, as they use their oldest double deckers, probably due to the students lack of respect to the buses.

The main reason will be running costs. As part of tendering for the contract First will have based their tender on low running costs as a priority as opposed to 'quality of service'. The Olympians are pretty much fully depreciated as assets, so that will have been factored into the tender. If the contract had specified DDA-compliant machines (the 'quality' element) then the tender would reflect that.

 

[alwaystouchout]

I used to notice the same thing with the 822 on the rare occasions when I went that way to college - I used to prefer taking the 199 from the Airport to High Lane then the 809 to Marple (which virtually never took non-students)


I sometimes make use now of the 712 Altrincham College of Arts - Peel Hall route, to get me from Baguley to Woodhouse Park.

I guess whether passengers boarded with a Megarider or a Unirider was always the tell tale sign.

Mine was direct although it wasn't much quicker than catching the local Stagecoach services as it took a long-winded route through Bredbury and Romiley, but I remember thinking how much nicer it was to plonk myself on a warm bus for an hour than have to change at Stockport.

 

[34D]

I'll confess to not having dealt with FDR/BSOG recently but according to the
CONDITIONS OF ELIGIBILITY in PSV360 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ment_data/file/9124/bsog-info-pack-psv360.pdf
its seems that, for school transport, some of the seats must be available for use by the public in order to qualify for BSOG.

In my territory (north yorks county council) some school tenders are allowed to be registered as scheduled services _if_ the operator provides capacity over and above the contract stipulations.

Other tenders (example, a primary school one I know of) state "this service must not be registered with the traffic commissioner" or similar words.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If they're running as a public service I doubt they're allowed to have this sort of restriction - they should be available to any member of the public who chooses to use them.

This was my own understanding also.

HOWEVER, as TfL is (likely to be) removing cash as a valid payment method, it may be that other non-cash payment methods are allowed also (ie pay the school).

Anyone able to expand upon this further?