Scenic Line Rolling Stock

[03_179]

I'm doing a bit of research on the rolling stock on scenic lines like Heart of Wales, Esk Valley, Kyle,
Mallaig, Settle to Carlisle etc.

From a NON enthusiast point of view what do you thing are the best for tourists/general folk?

I know that 156s, 158s, 153s, 150s all do services on some scenic lines but what are the best ?

Thanks in advance,

 

[DarloRich]

If you pay for the NYMR service you get a nice carriage between Grosmont and Whitby. It isn't cheap mind. Same for the S&C if you pay for staycation express.

 

[03_179]

Yeah I've done the NYMR and it is VERY nice.

Mostly I'm looking for the current regular day to day stock.

 

[Mat17]

Pacers were the best for this, large windows, or at least narrow support posts between them. So good all round views.

150s are dreadful for good views.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of existing stock 158 and 170 are decent, because the windows are big, seats generally aligned to them and the tapered bodyside means you can see out and up (e.g. for mountains).

If building new you could go much more custom e.g. proper panoramic windows.

 

[Mat17]

I must admit 170s sprang to mind after I'd posted. I think they're decent trains.

 

[DelW]

A diesel 444 would have been a decent option, with good sized windows and fairly comfortable seats. Seat / window alignment in the 444s isn't perfect, but then it rarely is on modern trains. I've never been on a 185 so I don't know how they compare.

In my view, open mark 1s were pretty much ideal, though some might now want some airline seating as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A diesel 444 would have been a decent option, with good sized windows and fairly comfortable seats. Seat / window alignment in the 444s isn't perfect, but then it rarely is on modern trains. I've never been on a 185 so I don't know how they compare.

Same thing, different door positions, and pretty much all seats in bays and window-aligned other than a few at the vehicle ends. Proper 2+1 First Class too, which is really very nice. Would be great on the hillier scenic lines running in pairs (as one is rarely enough as they are very low density). Such as TPE to be fair - it's a rather unsung hero of scenery.

 

[superkev]

Scotrail have modified some class 158s with better aligned seats and more tables for scenic lines which with there end doors give a much better view out. They have also added a 153 to trains on the Wesf Highland modified for bikers hikers etc. These would be ideal for the S and C etc.
For the ultimare scenic experience you cant beat a mk1 carrage with its picture frame windows.
K

 

[SeanG]

A voyager isn't too bad windows wise, if the tables were to properly line up with the windows that is...

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

Personally, I'd say that Class 170s are the best for scenic lines. Good layout, large windows and most seats have a decent view.

Also agree that Class 150s are abysmal if you wish to view anything outside of the train...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Scotrail have modified some class 158s with better aligned seats and more tables for scenic lines which with there end doors give a much better view out. They have also added a 153 to trains on the Wesf Highland modified for bikers hikers etc. These would be ideal for the S and C etc.
For the ultimare scenic experience you cant beat a mk1 carrage with its picture frame windows.
K

I'd say a Mk2. Mk1s actually have quite small windows and large pillars, so the window isn't directly alongside you as you sit, but a bit in front. Mk2a and Mk2bs have very wide windows and very narrow pillars.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2021 ==

A voyager isn't too bad windows wise, if the tables were to properly line up with the windows that is...

Very true - ex-Virgin "Coach Ds" are quite pleasant with their fully aligned layout and the windows are massive and tapered for a view upwards as well.

Voyagers are somewhat overpowered and over-heavy for scenic lines, though.

 

[SeanG]

Very true - ex-Virgin "Coach Ds" are quite pleasant with their fully aligned layout and the windows are massive and tapered for a view upwards as well.

Voyagers are somewhat overpowered and over-heavy for scenic lines, though.

Oh definitely although they are nice to have over the scenic bits of their current operations, thinking Dawlish Sea Wall, North Wales Coast, Edinburgh - Aberdeen, Birmingham - Wolverhampton (ok, may have overestimated one there).

I had one over the S&C many years ago and it was excellent

 

[Envoy]

For reliable air con and big windows, I would say the Class 170’s.

 

[S&CLER]

A voyager isn't too bad windows wise, if the tables were to properly line up with the windows that is...

That's why I used to prefer Voyagers (or TPE) to Pendolinos when travelling on the scenic part of the WCML from Preston to Carlisle. Pendolinos are definitely too claustrophobic for me, whatever other virtues they may have. My all-time favourites were the Mk IId series, which combined air conditioning with deep windows, good seat/window alignment, plenty of luggage space between seat backs, comfortable seating , a conveniently shaped table and a sensible seat height. Of course they didn't have wi-fi and other modern necessities (for some people, not me), but on the whole I don't think they have been equalled since.

 

[gg1]

Of existing stock 158 and 170 are decent, because the windows are big, seats generally aligned to them and the tapered bodyside means you can see out and up (e.g. for mountains).

If building new you could go much more custom e.g. proper panoramic windows.

Realistically I can't see bespoke stock being ordered purely for scenic routes, but if any operator every did, and if it's technically possible to build them and still meet modern safety standards, I'd like to see them go one stage further and partially glaze the roof similar to the observation cars used on a few tourist orientated services in Canada.

 

[chiltern trev]

At a future date, the 156s et Al operating to Oban, Fort William, Mallaig, Kyle, Thurso and Wick will need replacing. Given these are scenic lines and will not be electrified, then perhaps a one class build that could be 'scenic' and also use the same new build for Stranraer which is not getting electrified. As ScotRail have the 153 bike units, perhaps there is a good chance of scenic units and with other features passengers actually require including adequate luggage and bike space etc. (And permitting a food trolley service. Also not forgetting low floor level access).

 

[Bill57p9]

Realistically I can't see bespoke stock being ordered purely for scenic routes, but if any operator every did, and if it's technically possible to build them and still meet modern safety standards, I'd like to see them go one stage further and partially glaze the roof similar to the observation cars used on a few tourist orientated services in Canada.

This subject has come up on the ScotRail 153 thread. There are a number of lines in Britain that offer really special scenery and, other than the S&C we don't maximise that market potential.

ScotRail are charging a premium for 2+2 seats in the 153. Whilst this particular attempt isn't particularly likely to be over subscribed it will be a very interesting test case, alongside LSL's "staycation express".

With the right product, positioning and price I believe that there is a market in the UK - especially once the American and Far East tourists return. It certainly works in Switzerland.

CAF are happy with small orders, so maybe they or the Swiss would be up for producing a UK scenic train.

Back to the exam question though, air conditioning aside I believe 158s (with aligned seating) make a really good offer on such lines: the end doors are far more suited to such journeys than one-third/two-thirds.

 

[bramling]

This subject has come up on the ScotRail 153 thread. There are a number of lines in Britain that offer really special scenery and, other than the S&C we don't maximise that market potential.

ScotRail are charging a premium for 2+2 seats in the 153. Whilst this particular attempt isn't particularly likely to be over subscribed it will be a very interesting test case, alongside LSL's "staycation express".

With the right product, positioning and price I believe that there is a market in the UK - especially once the American and Far East tourists return. It certainly works in Switzerland.

CAF are happy with small orders, so maybe they or the Swiss would be up for producing a UK scenic train.

Back to the exam question though, air conditioning aside I believe 158s (with aligned seating) make a really good offer on such lines: the end doors are far more suited to such journeys than one-third/two-thirds.

The only trouble with 158s is legroom isn’t wonderful on some versions, which can also include 156s too. Okay if there’s no one sitting opposite, but not good if the train is crowded.

 

[03_179]

Thanks to all for your input.

So it seems the 153s, 170s, and 158s seem to be the better options and the 150s are pretty much awful.

 

[Mikey C]

Thanks to all for your input.

So it seems the 153s, 170s, and 158s seem to be the better options and the 150s are pretty much awful.

Don't forget the 165s, which at some point will become available. Newer than the Sprinters and better suited to stop start routes than the 170s. The Networker design has slim pillars and an excellent view out too

 

[Grecian 1998]

The refurbished 150/2s with 2+2 seating used in Wales and the Westcountry give better views than the 2+3 150/1s and 150/2s used elsewhere in the country. Although TBF there are still numerous seats with a poor view.

I've always found the 156s to have fairly good views as they have lots of windows and fairly slim pillars. Although that might be because there aren't any down south and as I've used them on scenic lines such as the West Highland, Cumbrian Coast and the Durham Coast, I tend to associate them with scenic lines in any case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The refurbished 150/2s with 2+2 seating used in Wales and the Westcountry give better views than the 2+3 150/1s and 150/2s used elsewhere in the country. Although TBF there are still numerous seats with a poor view.

You could, if you took a bit of a seat capacity hit, make a 150 suitable for a scenic line - in each section have 4 bays of seats aligned to the windows, then side-facing seats or luggage racks in the remaining spaces.

 

[And]

This subject has come up on the ScotRail 153 thread. There are a number of lines in Britain that offer really special scenery and, other than the S&C we don't maximise that market potential.

ScotRail are charging a premium for 2+2 seats in the 153. Whilst this particular attempt isn't particularly likely to be over subscribed it will be a very interesting test case, alongside LSL's "staycation express".

With the right product, positioning and price I believe that there is a market in the UK - especially once the American and Far East tourists return. It certainly works in Switzerland.

CAF are happy with small orders, so maybe they or the Swiss would be up for producing a UK scenic train.

Back to the exam question though, air conditioning aside I believe 158s (with aligned seating) make a really good offer on such lines: the end doors are far more suited to such journeys than one-third/two-thirds.

And don't forget these carriages in NZ: Scenic Class Carriages | The Great Journeys of New Zealand (greatjourneysofnz.co.nz).
A fleet of just 17 were built to a very bespoke design (narrow gauge, etc.) in NZ less than 10 years ago for their 3 scenic services - see: New Zealand AK class carriage - Wikipedia.
It's population is not much less than Scotland.

 

[Neptune]

Having worked the S&C for many years I can categorically say the most useful unit I’ve worked over the route was an ex FNW 156 with the additional vertical luggage racks at the vehicle ends and the excellent Chapman seats. In fact it was improved one busy summer Saturday morning by having a 153 attached to it giving it extra seats, extra cycle space, an extra large luggage rack above the cycle space and an extra toilet.

I’ve also worked 142’s, 144’s and 150’s (all not fit for purpose on the S&C). 158’s are fine except for the crappy cycle space (although the 158/9’s have a bit more where the toilet is missing). A 3 car 158 is a pleasure though as they have more than adequate cycle provision in the centre car.

 

[D6975]

In India they have started using these - something similar is what's needed. It doesn't show up very well in this phot but those are windows in the roof at each side, not lighting panels. ps the seats flip so face forward in both directions.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

In India they have started using these - something similar is what's needed. It doesn't show up very well in this phot but those are windows in the roof at each side, not lighting panels.

View attachment 100115

Those seats look a bit like IC70s...

 

[Mat17]

You could, if you took a bit of a seat capacity hit, make a 150 suitable for a scenic line - in each section have 4 bays of seats aligned to the windows, then side-facing seats or luggage racks in the remaining spaces.

The FNW 150s had bay seating, I never cared for them, nothing worse than being sat knee to knee with a stranger trying to find somewhere to look that's not them or the bulkhead next to you. Airline all the way for me.

The biggest problem with the 150s for me was never so much that the seats didn't line up with the windows, but rather the seats were really low and the windows really high.

 

[Neptune]

In India they have started using these - something similar is what's needed. It doesn't show up very well in this phot but those are windows in the roof at each side, not lighting panels. ps the seats flip so face forward in both directions.

View attachment 100115

They look perfect for stargazers. I’m fairly sure most scenery is to the sides of the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They look perfect for stargazers. I’m fairly sure most scenery is to the sides of the train.

In mountainous areas it's often out and up, but I find for UK purposes (given our smaller mountains) that tapered bodysides as found on e.g. classes 158, 170 and 22x provide well enough for that.

Big windows generally help, though, to be fair. A Swiss EW IV is a great way to view scenery, the mind boggles as to why most of the newer kit in Switzerland (IC2000 double deck coaches and the Stadler KISS double deck EMUs) has such tiny windows. (Double deck stock doesn't have to - the newer German Bombardier coaches have massive windows and excellent views).