Saw a money-pit today!

[CosherB]

Me and a few mates ventured by Transpennine express today over to the wrong side of t'hills, to the National Railway Museum in York to be precise. What a great place that is! But in the workshops, was this money-pit:

It has bankrupted more than a few previous owners. It's only a bleedin Gresley A3... not even a good looking loco and certainly not historically significant. But it sucks up more money than privately-owned flying Concorde would. I only hope the NRM has ring-fenced the budget!

 

[Phoenix]

Me and a few mates ventured by Transpennine express today over to the wrong side of t'hills, to the National Railway Museum in York to be precise. What a great place that is! But in the workshops, was this money-pit:

It has bankrupted more than a few previous owners. It's only a bleedin Gresley A3... not even a good looking loco and certainly not historically significant. But it sucks up more money than privately-owned flying Concorde would. I only hope the NRM has ring-fenced the budget!

I like the point you are trying to make here but the problem is it is historically significant and has been involved many firsts and nowadays is considered a national treasure I will admit it has been in that state for over a year but hopefully this will return her to the mainline.

It may be a money pit but it is a English money pit and we love her!!

 

[91101]

Meh! Just a big kettle me!!

 

[mumrar]

This just in, apparently in a fit of pure jealousy, the British banks have decided that THEY want to be the English money pit. So Flying Scotswoman (if we insist on referring to it as she) has been knocked from it's mantle.

Whilst the loco may have been involved in so many firsts, there are many more trains that are responsible for firsts I gues, but they're left to languish in tatters or funded by specifically dedicated group. APT-P first tilting electric train in UK, for example

 

[Muttley]

It's only a bleedin Gresley A3... not even a good looking loco and certainly not historically significant.

The first kettle to run at 100mph and not significant ???

Good job you`re not in charge of the NRM, it wouldn`t have much in it.

 

[mumrar]

The first kettle to run at 100mph and not significant ???

You just had to say it. This is a point of history that will never be wholeheartedly agreed on, especially between the East Coast and Great Western fans. I have no special connection to any of the 'old regions' but I know this is a never cooled hot potato.

Whilst it is reason enough for it be preserved, there is no predeliction for it to be in mainline use as it is so expensive to make it so. The wonderful and one-off Deltic prototype (I do choose this for personal reasons) suffered a catastrophic engine failure and withdrawal. It is preserved and a credit to the NRM that it is, and it makes all it's bold statements visually whilst stood still. There is no call for this to be on the mainline as it was once the fastest diesel locomotive in the world, in tests pre-1960 it reached 121mph, or the most powerful locomotive of it's day at 3300hp.

Some have questioned the NRMs motivation sometimes, and whilst their intention with this loco is good, it should have been retained in cosmetic condition, because along with the heavy cost to restore it mechanically comes the cost of running and servicing it in the near future too. The NRM itself have only recently took on a Class 47, the most numerous diesel class and most successful built in this country, and even now it's shuffled away to the side. So how can they bleat about the significance of Scotsman, whilst seemingly ignoring other equals of railway stature? Class 47s are now in their 46th year of continuous front line use on the railway, 4472 managed 40 years by comparison.

 

[EE Type 3]

Completely agree with you there Matt.

Why don't they do something else with the money spent on Flying Scotchman, and get D200 running, and possibly mainline certified, of how about getting Lode Star operational again? They won't give a classic, British icon like the 47 a place in the great hall either, instead they put 55002 in there. What I can't get is how you can compare a loco of which there was only 22, was a passenger loco, and didn't last long, and a loco of which there was over 500, were mixed traffic, are are still earning their keep on the mainline.

I really don't know how they work, but its a funny way about it.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

I suppose Flying Scotman is like marmite, you like it or you don't (the latter could apply to non kettle fans)

I'm not much of a steam fan, but I don't mind watching them or going behind them, but to be honest, theres something I don't like about it (I know it broke records ect but its the loco itself) and for some reason I prefer to watch 92203 rather than 4472

 

[Muttley]

You make a convincing argument about it (FS) being preserved as a static model. But given the choice (as a runner) between this and the original `40, well theres only one winner. D200 and its ilk were outclassed by all the East Coast pacifics, which is why they were quickly removed from Finsbury Park.
It would appear a waste to display/mainline ready a `47 at this early stage, seeing as they were so recently withdrawn, or can still be seen in action as a `57.

 

[mumrar]

What I can't get is how you can compare a loco of which there was only 22, was a passenger loco, and didn't last long, and a loco of which there was over 500, were mixed traffic, are are still earning their keep on the mainline.

I was never comparing the two classes, but making a case for Deltic (DP1 prototypes) survival, because as the argument for 4472 was going, what it achieved in it's time. That's like saying all Pacifics (built for passenger only) cannot be considered in the same relevance as Black 5s, just cos they were so prolific and work-a-day (no Timmy Mallet gags please) locos.

It would appear a waste to display/mainline ready a `47 at this early stage, seeing as they were so recently withdrawn

No one complained about 87001 being preserved and this came from a small dedicated fleet that were recently withdrawn, as well as a Class 31 for example. Enthusiasts will always have favourites, and the successes need to appear alongside the more unique but triumphant exhibits. But it is important this attitude is carried through into preservation, the money spent ensuring 4472 is running again could have been spent easily on 3 or 4 different projects (I'm not talking specifics) due to the large costs incurred, and that is the big travesty. Not that 4472 shall ride again, but that others may suffer in order for it to do so. It has had more than it's limelight in preservation since 1968 and it needs to step aside and be gazed upon!

 

[Phoenix]

It has had more than it's limelight in preservation since 1968 and it needs to step aside and be gazed upon!

And like Mallard she will eventually step aside and join the great hall.
But with the general question of why her not any other loco well she has gained her fame through just sheer luck of being the right loco picked a few times.

And plus the association in names with one of the most famous services offered on the railways.
A vast majority of foreign people know her name and will pay to see her so she doubles up as a tourist attraction herself.

But the NRM sadly can't preserve everything and how many class 47's are preserved................Too many so the one off's tend to be the ones hogging the limelight but then again why isn't the CO-BO or even the 15 or even the 17.

 

[Techniquest]

Well I'd prefer to see a production HST power car in their Great Hall than 4472.

I concur with James, I'd rather see 92203 than 4472. But then I'd prefer 6024 or 7802 over both of the non-GWR locos.

I'm surprised at what state 4472 is STILL in. I visited the NRM last in March 2007 and she looked just as bad (perhaps better!) than she does in the OP's photo. Why it's taking so long to do the works on her I just don't know, but it does seem a waste of money.

 

[CosherB]

Lode Star is a far more significant loco than 4472, which is only famous for being 4472.

Churchward's Lode Star incorporated most of what Collett later took further, culminating in the 'King'; what Stanier took to the LMS (personified in the magnificent 'Coronation' pacifics), and what carried right through to the BR standard classes (Brittanias and 9Fs and many more). And Bulleid applied it to his superb pacifics as well.

It passed Gresly by. The A3s were 'OK', but not in any way significant.

 

[Aureol]

what Stanier took to the LMS (personified in the magnificent 'Coronation' pacifics)

He actually took it to the smaller Princess Royal class of Pacific locomotives, and if you look at one side on you can straight away see the presence of the GWR King in the lines of the 'Royal. The Princess Coronations were then built upon the Princess Royal class, but everything was bigger, the boiler, the blastpipes, the cylinders, the wheels...everything on a Coronation was bigger. And something that not many people know is that Sir William A. Stanier FRS himself actually had very little to do with the designing of the Princess Coronations, as he was out of the country at the time, so other designers at the Derby Drawing Office had a go themselves before getting them approved for building by Stanier.

 

[jopsuk]

To non-cranks, the historical and cultural significance, even if it was down to being chosen on the day, is much more important than the engineering significance. Also, being named after the East Coast's premier service has helped cement its place in history- most people think of the Flying Scotsman both as the engine and train- they're inseprable.

 

[CosherB]

Other than its name, that loco has no historic or cultural significance. If the A3s had never been built, there would have been no loss to BR steam technology or culture.

 

[mumrar]

And plus the association in names with one of the most famous services offered on the railways.
A vast majority of foreign people know her name and will pay to see her so she doubles up as a tourist attraction herself.

There is many good debates and reasons going in here, and I'm trying to keep away from any specific region bias, but what you say here is even more reason for it to be in the NRM, static.

Imagine some of these tourists come to the National Railway Museum, on the ECML where 4472 ran, and find out it's busy with a Cathedrals Express from Victoria to Bath! It's perceived 'fame' is with Joe Public, not with enthusiasts, and Joe Public doesn't read uksteam.info etc to find out where it is running, so those who seek the celebrity will find it not in the museum, thus cancelling it's 'fame' out.

Is this just something I've imagined, or is 4472 getting it's own dedicated area in the museum too?

As to the point of named trains and loco names, 87001 'Royal Scot' in the NRM is in the same boat but is not viewed through apple green tinted specs I guess!

 

[Phoenix]

Other than its name, that loco has no historic or cultural significance. If the A3s had never been built, there would have been no loss to BR steam technology or culture.

OK that's false because we have established it has historical significance please check the facts before you carry on mate.

 

[EE Type 3]

OK that's false because we have established it has historical significance please check the facts before you carry on mate.

Although your forgetting it got famous by accident, it only got it's status because it was broken!

 

[CosherB]

OK that's false because we have established it has historical significance please check the facts before you carry on mate.

Care to substantiate that un called for and impolite comment?

WHO has already established it has historical significance? I certainly haven't. Significant for what? Being a money pit? Being called 'Flying Scotsman'? Being 'maybe' the first to do 100mph (or maybe 'Truro' did it many years before)?

It is not in any way significant. It's a bit like a 'C' list celeb - famous only for being a 'C' list celeb.

Please check your facts before contradicting ME and accusing my posting of being a 'carry on', whatever that is. And, I am most certainly not your mate!:roll:

CS