Saveaway partly used in peak hours

[RAZOR1965]

My question is regarding a saveaway which is a bus, train and fery combined ticket for Merseyside. The ticket is not valid for 'journeys' scheduled to commence after 6:31am. I am planning to travel from Waterloo (Liverpool) to Newton-le-willows starting with the 6:20 from Waterloo, changing at Liverpool central/Lime street to take the 7:16 to Newton-le-Willows.

Will the ticket man on the 7:16 regard this as one journey? I will keep my receipt from Waterloo. Does he have to 'believe me'?

When is a single journey deemed to be two journeys? An unreasonable time between start and change trains maybe?

Regards

 

[M28361M]

From the terms and conditions at http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/Tickets/buying-tickets/Pages/Ticket-T-and-C.aspx

Each time you board a bus or pass through a rail or ferry terminal barrier counts as a separate journey.

As you would pass through a ticket barrier at Central and probably at Lime Street too, it looks like it would not be valid.

 

[gray1404]

You will be fine getting as far as Liverpool from Waterloo at 6.20am but a saveaway would not be valid on the 7.16 from Lime Street. If you have a lot on the back of a stratch off savaway (I have a few here on my desk now). It says:-

Conditions of use

Words to the effect of valid "anytime EXCEPT for journeys starting between 6.31am and 9.29am" Monday to Friday.

It goes onto say "Each time you board a bus or pass though a terminal barrier counts a separate journey."

I therefore suspect that once you walk out of Liverpool Central and cross the city to Lime Street and attempt to pass through the ticket barrier at Lime Street to board the Newton le Willows train, this would be counted as a separate journey.

I can see the argument though for it not being i.e. you are merely taking a connecting service and you started your journey before 6.31am etc...

 

[RAZOR1965]

there is no other option when changing in Liverpool.

How sure are you that you are correct? Don't want to fall foul of penalties.

In my experience, advice on here is usually more comprehensive than that given by station staff. Their reaction is often 'no'.

 

[Merseysider]

From Merseyrail's Guide to Saveaways:

Times you can travel on Saveaways
Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays – any time!
Mondays to Fridays – anytime EXCEPT for journeys starting between 6.31am and 9.29am.

From the NRCoC:

For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start your journey other than to:
(i) join a train at another station
...

It is fairly clear that Waterloo - NLW is one unbroken journey, even though you need to change trains. I would say that as long as you don't take too long to walk between Central and Lime Street you'll be fine, especially if you have the receipt showing the time and place you bought the ticket. You won't be the first to do it and you won't be the last.

Merseyrail cannot override the NRCoC by 'redefining' what constitutes a journey.

 

[RAZOR1965]

Sorry, just re-read your reply without somebody nattering to me. I see you are correct

 

[greatkingrat]

Yes, the OP is making one journey for the purposes of the NRCOC. This means that he could claim delay compensation based on the whole journey for example.

However I don't think that has any relevance to the time restrictions for the Saveaway. The published restrictions are very clear that you can't pass through a barrier after 0630. It is no different to the evening CDR restrictions in Greater Manchester where you can catch the 1550 into Manchester, but changing onto the 1630 back out the other side is not allowed.

 

[headshot119]

JadeF although I agree with your reasoning...

The result of using the saveaway like this will most likely result in not being permitted access through the barriers at Liverpool Lime Street.

 

[Merseysider]

JadeF although I agree with your reasoning...

The result of using the saveaway like this will most likely result in not being permitted access through the barriers at Liverpool Lime Street.

Have you seen the "barriers" at Lime Street?

Most of the time it's just two blokes in opposite shacks talking to each other, glancing at passengers every now and again to check they're holding something orange.

When STM turn up it's slightly tighter, but still a highly permeable 'barrier'.

If the OP has any issues they should only be charged an excess of £1.80, nothing more, and I'd be more than happy to assist in having that £1.80 excess refunded if it came to it.

 

[causton]

I was going to say, I don't think my ticket has been checked at the human barriers at Liverpool Lime Street! I tried to trick them by showing invalid tickets once but they weren't even looking... pretty pointless actually :P

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the OP has any issues they should only be charged an excess of £1.80, nothing more, and I'd be more than happy to assist in having that £1.80 excess refunded if it came to it.

Where do you get that from? They would be charged an Anytime Day Single from Lime St to Newton-le-Willows which is £4.80. You can't excess a Saveaway. There isn't even an Off Peak Day Single from which you could have derived that figure.

 

[headshot119]

Have you seen the "barriers" at Lime Street?

Most of the time it's just two blokes in opposite shacks talking to each other, glancing at passengers every now and again to check they're holding something orange.

When STM turn up it's slightly tighter, but still a highly permeable 'barrier'.

If the OP has any issues they should only be charged an excess of £1.80, nothing more, and I'd be more than happy to assist in having that £1.80 excess refunded if it came to it.

Yes I have I'm a regular visitor to Lime Street and the other Liverpool Stations, though I do take your point they leave a lot to be desired.

However the amount of people we see on here saying they caught at Lime Street after short faring means they must do something some of the time.

 

[tony_mac]

I don't think that the meaning could be much clearer.

The term journey is both used and clarified in the Saveaway terms and conditions; I don't see any sense in looking for a different definition elsewhere.

To join in the pedantry; the NRCoC doesn't clarify 'journey'. It defines 'break of journey', a term which is used within the NRCoC, but not the Saveaway conditions, which only refer to two separate journeys. The NrCoC has nothing to say about how to deal with two separate journeys.

It's a bit of a stretch to even link the two, never mind claiming that one document takes precedence over another, despite the term in question being explicitly and clearly spelled out.

I often complain about the lack of clear meanings in the terms and conditions, and hence the problems of different interpretations. This just seems like a slightly desperate attempt to to claim ambiguity where none really exists.

 

[Statto]

Is Merseytravel the only authority that have an off peak before 6.30am on a normal weekday, most other areas it's peak until 9 or 9.30am?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Is Merseytravel the only authority that have an off peak before 6.30am on a normal weekday, most other areas it's peak until 9 or 9.30am?

Oyster has morning off-peak charging times as well...But TfL isn't a PTE.

 

[yorkie]

This is clearly not two separate journeys; it's one journey with a change of trains.

If the T&Cs want to allow you to only board trains at certain times, and you then get penalised for changing, then they should not refer to journeys and simply use plain and simple English and say it how it is.

Although it's clear to me that the journey is from origin to destination, some might say there's doubt about the meaning of the term 'journey', so we may need to make note as to what to do if there is doubt about the meaning of a term...

Statutory Instrument 1999 No. 2083

Written contracts
7. - (2) If there is doubt about the meaning of a written term, the interpretation which is most favourable to the consumer shall prevail

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1999/19992083.htm

 

[Jonfun]

I can't see how there is any doubt. In the Saveaway terms and conditions they clearly state that a journey must not commence between 0631 and 0929, and clarifies for the above instruction that a new journey starts when you pass through a ticket barrier.

If we were debating somewhere like Hunts Cross, then there is an argument that any change of train would not be a seperate journey as it doesn't pass you through a barrier. I suppose, theoretically, if we were debating Lime Street and you left via the Wirral Line lift, were not subject to a revenue barrier on leaving the lift, and your train left from platform 7, 8, or 9, then there would also be an argument that the journey would be a single one. But it seems quite clear, in this case. There are plenty of other tickets without the additional restrictions of the Saveaway that I'm sure would allow the OP to conduct their journey unimpeded.

 

[OwlMan]

Surely condition 1(c) of the NRCOC covers this

1. Your contract
A ticket that has been issued to you is evidence of a contract between you and each Train Company whose trains you have the right to use. Where the company selling you the ticket is not one of the Train Companies on whose services you are travelling, the seller is acting as agent for the Train Company or Companies in whose trains you are entitled to travel.
If a ticket entitles you to any goods or services from another party (including the right to travel in another party’s transpot services), it is also evidence of a contract between you and that other party. The conditions relating to these additional goods or services may be different, and will be obtainable from that other party.
Tickets remain the property of the relevant Train Company. Each ticket is issued subject to:
(a) these Conditions;
(b) the applicable Byelaws;
(c) the conditions which apply to Electronic Tickets, Smartcards, other devices used for storing Electronic Tickets and certain types of reduced and discounted fare tickets as set out in the notices and other publications issued by the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use;
and (d) the conditions set out in the notices and other publications issued by another person if the ticket enables you to use any of their goods or services. Train Companies will ensure that you can be provided with or have access to the conditions applying to any ticket you buy, as well as the Byelaws, before you buy your ticket.
In the case of electronic tickets and tickets issued on Oyster cards, see Condition 9.1.

 

[razor89]

This is clearly not two separate journeys; it's one journey with a change of trains.

If the T&Cs want to allow you to only board trains at certain times, and you then get penalised for changing, then they should not refer to journeys and simply use plain and simple English and say it how it is.

Although it's clear to me that the journey is from origin to destination, some might say there's doubt about the meaning of the term 'journey', so we may need to make note as to what to do if there is doubt about the meaning of a term...

The definition with regards to Saveaways is quite clear as far as I am concerned. Whether it's legally enforceable is less clear going on this thread. In which case, what is the OP to do?

Go for it and hope for the best? Maybe the OP can show the barrier staff at Lime Street this thread to try and convince them!

Or buy a ticket that will allow them to complete their journey with no worry of being stopped and possibly missing their train?

For me, only the second option makes sense. I do not think it is wise to advise someone who may not have much knowledge of ticketing/ NRCoC/ Byelaws etc to chance it in this situation. The rules regarding Saveaways should be well known to all transport staff on Merseyside as they have been in place for a long time and I believe they are right to enforce them. The issue with the legality of the Saveaway T&Cs has nothing to do with front line staff.

 

[northwichcat]

Because the Conditions say so

Although Stagecoach think the NRCoC doesn't apply to Megatrain tickets.

 

[transmanche]

The rules regarding Saveaways should be well known to all transport staff on Merseyside as they have been in place for a long time and I believe they are right to enforce them. The issue with the legality of the Saveaway T&Cs has nothing to do with front line staff.

I suspect that Merseytravel may not have intended to prevent journeys starting before 06:30 which involve changing between the Wirral line and the City line at Lime Street after 06:30, whilst permitting a similar journey involving a change between between the Wirral line and Northern line at Moorfields/Liverpool Central.

Perhaps a letter from the OP to Merseytravel highlighting this unintentional anomaly would be useful, allowing Merseytravel to re-word the condition accordingly.

 

[Bevan Price]

The Saveaway ticket is not the same as a single or return ticket. It is effectively a special type of day ranger ticket, and has conditions specified by Merseytravel, presumably agreed with TOCs, and those conditions are what will be applied - regardless of NRCoC.

Ticket checks are fairly common (but not yet 100%) on Northern services into / out of Lime Street, and the barrier checks exiting platforms 1 to 6 are usually more thorough than the checks on departing passengers.

There is also a further potential problem - at Lime Street you have no proof that you started your journey elsewhere before 06:30. Why would they believe you ?

 

[Statto]

I can't see how there is any doubt. In the Saveaway terms and conditions they clearly state that a journey must not commence between 0631 and 0929, and clarifies for the above instruction that a new journey starts when you pass through a ticket barrier.

If we were debating somewhere like Hunts Cross, then there is an argument that any change of train would not be a seperate journey as it doesn't pass you through a barrier. I suppose, theoretically, if we were debating Lime Street and you left via the Wirral Line lift, were not subject to a revenue barrier on leaving the lift, and your train left from platform 7, 8, or 9, then there would also be an argument that the journey would be a single one. But it seems quite clear, in this case. There are plenty of other tickets without the additional restrictions of the Saveaway that I'm sure would allow the OP to conduct their journey unimpeded.

The doubt is because the journey passes through 2 sets of barriers at 2 different stations in the City Centre in the peak when off peak Saveaway wouldn't be valid for the 2nd part of the journey.

OP might be better changing at Moorfields then using Wirral Line to Lime Street than using Central/Lime Street but OP still has to pass through the barriers at Lime Street

 

[RAZOR1965]

Aw, just found this on Merseytravel:

Saveaway Conditions of Use

Can be used off-peak only at the following times:- Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays – anytime. Mondays to Fridays – anytime EXCEPT journeys scheduled to start between 6:31 am and 9:29 am.
Each time you board a bus or pass through a rail or ferry terminal barrier counts as a separate journey.

Ok, what's a 'rail rover' and will that get round it?

I have to go Waterloo to NLW and back, twice on Friday you see.

 

[tony_mac]

Ok, what's a 'rail rover' and will that get round it?

I have to go Waterloo to NLW and back, twice on Friday you see.

It seems that people would rather squabble amongst themselves than actually try to help....

Anyway, no, a 'rail rover' wouldn't help. There isn't one that would be valid at that time.
The only way I can see to do it, without buying multiple tickets, is to walk to Litherland and take the 55 bus, and get the 6:16 or 6:20 from Lime Street.

 

[Kentish Paul]

As a simple person , I have tried to make sense of this thread but to no avail.

Please, a simple ticketing system. :cry:

 

[Max]

I have split out the broader discussion on the Ts and Cs for PTE products in the context of the NRCoC into a new thread, please continue this discussion there.

 

[Statto]

As a simple person , I have tried to make sense of this thread but to no avail.

Please, a simple ticketing system. :cry:

Problem is ticket like a Saveaway is not a National Rail ticket but a PTE rover issued by the local authority valid on Trains-Buses-Ferries.

Think one way around without passing through barriers, Merseyrail Waterloo-Hunts Cross, then Northern Rail Hunts Cross-Newton Le Willows changing at Edge Hill, but might be able to change at Lime Street if the train from Hunts Cross stops on P1-P6.

 

[185143]

My question is regarding a saveaway which is a bus, train and fery combined ticket for Merseyside. The ticket is not valid for 'journeys' scheduled to commence after 6:31am. I am planning to travel from Waterloo (Liverpool) to Newton-le-willows starting with the 6:20 from Waterloo, changing at Liverpool central/Lime street to take the 7:16 to Newton-le-Willows.

Will the ticket man on the 7:16 regard this as one journey? I will keep my receipt from Waterloo. Does he have to 'believe me'?

When is a single journey deemed to be two journeys? An unreasonable time between start and change trains maybe?

Regards

was it you that tweeted Merseytravel about that this morning?

 

[gray1404]

was it you that tweeted Merseytravel about that this morning?

What was the reply from Merseytravel on Twitter?