Saturdays on the railway in general

[SussexSeagull]

Where has that been suggested, please?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Nov 2022 ==



Absolutely. This mirrors my experience too. It’s a minority but a very vociferous one. Rather than getting offended football fans would do better to ensure that they and those they travel with are part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

It has been suggested that train staff won't work Saturday due to Football Fans.

I can only speak from personal experience - which is fast becoming out of date as I don't get trains to football at the moment - but the worst I see is people being noisy. The worst I have seen returning from a football match was going back through Three Bridges and two groups of youths decided to get stuck into each other. They were absolutely nothing to do with football.

Part of the problem is due to colours football fans stick out. Me not wearing colours minding my own business on an early evening train back to Euston working my way through whatever I got from Marks and Spencers at Lime Street or Piccadilly goes unnoticed.

If football fans or anyone are genuinely causing problems then it is a Police matter.

 

[43066]

It has been suggested that train staff won't work Saturday due to Football Fans.

If someone is rostered to work on a Saturday there is no way around it other than booking leave. I think what has been suggested is that staff often won’t volunteer for overtime on a Saturday for a plethora of reasons, football fans being one.

the worst I see is people being noisy

In which case perhaps you need to accept that your experience isn’t reflective, and that those of us who have spent years working on the operational railway have seen a lot of terrible behaviour. Indeed it has reached the point where staff at my TOC were openly dismayed recently about a team in the midlands being promoted into some league or other due to the increase in away matches they will play.

 

[SussexSeagull]

If someone is rostered to work on a Saturday there is no way around it other than booking leave. I think what has been suggested is that staff often won’t volunteer for overtime on a Saturday for a plethora of reasons, football fans being one.



In which case perhaps you need to accept that your experience isn’t reflective, and that those of us who have spent years working on the operational railway have seen a lot of terrible behaviour. Indeed it has reached the point where staff at my TOC were openly dismayed about a team in the midlands being promoted into some league or other due to the increase in away matches they will play.

Not that I work in the industry but I believe some TOC rely on overtime to run a service at weekends?

To be fair some clubs have better behaved fans than others. Interestingly Brighton and Hove Albion revealed that 100% of fans arrested at away matches had tickets brought by someone else so not in their name and have cracked down on it. I know they mean stadium arrests but if you stop them travelling it will help matters.

Regardless, love or hate them, football fans have historically contributed a lot of revenue at the weekend and I don't think the rail industry is in a position to pick and choose customers at the moment.

 

[trainophile]

We must be using a different railway. Every train I take at the moment, whatever day of the week or time of day (but always off peak) is generally rammed.

 

[Volvictof]

To be honest, I'd have rather expected train/bus drivers to be used to those sort of possible distractions. Doesn't it rather come with the territory? Still, I've not been there so I realise I'm not really in any position to comment. I just feel that if I was a parent with a crying baby (which, after all, is what babies tend to do) I'd find it both upsetting and embarrasing if I was asked to move.

Ah well- I'll back off now...

You aren’t really trained in how to keep focused. Training is more around how to minimise distractions, and if that is a loud noise coming from outside the cab then the correct thing to do, the thing you are trained to do is to: 1) stop the cause of the distraction by asking them to stop or to move 2) if you feel it is safe to continue, reduce the speed of the train to account for extra risk 3) stand the train and don’t move until the distraction stops.

Obviously as drivers we understand that it’s a very awkward situation and therefor most will try and ignore it. But if you have an incident and when the investigator asks what happened and you say “I was distracted by a crying baby but I felt awkward so just let it go on” … well that’s not going to cut it with the ORR and you’re likely going to be in a fair bit of trouble.

Its pretty easy to say that a driver should be able to just concentrate as that’s what they’re trained for if you aren’t a train driver, it’s a different story if it’s your livelihood and the lives of people on board are your responsibility.
Look at it this way, that baby is the most important thing in the world to you, would you really want to bring it onto a train where the driver might not be fully focused?

That being said, I’ve never had that situation before, I guess most parents with young babys tend to go to the rear if the train for that reason. I have had a kid with Tourettes behind my cab before and was about to get out and tell him off for shouting and swearing before I realised it was involuntary, in that case I drove the train slower to account for the risk. God know the courage it must take to even leave the house with that condition.

 

[43066]

Not that I work in the industry but I believe some TOC rely on overtime to run a service at weekends?

They rely on overtime to run the service every day . It’s generally Sundays that are the bone of contention as some TOCs (albeit fewer these days than used to be the case) rely entirely on voluntary overtime. There are various reasons for this, mostly because it’s cheaper than employing enough staff to crew the service without overtime.

To be fair some clubs have better behaved fans than others. Interestingly Brighton and Hove Albion revealed that 100% of fans arrested at away matches had tickets brought by someone else so not in their name and have cracked down on it. I know they mean stadium arrests but if you stop them travelling it will help matters.

Yes I’m sure clubs are doing their best. It’s difficult to get around tickets bought by others and no doubt many fans will (quite rightly) want to take advantage of group save schemes etc. Presumably gathering intelligence on known trouble makers and imposing sanctions such as banning them from matches etc. is the way to do this.

Regardless, love or hate them, football fans have historically contributed a lot of revenue at the weekend and I don't think the rail industry is in a position to pick and choose customers at the moment.

I do agree with that. To be clear have nothing against football fans at all, but there is that minority that let the rest of you down.

 

[bramling]

Absolutely. This mirrors my experience too. It’s a minority but a very vociferous one. Rather than getting offended football fans would do better to ensure that they and those they travel with are part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

The experience I have is that football fans are disproportionately ignorant relative to other groups.

Like feeling they have a God-given right to pull a sickie when there’s an apparently important fixture on

Or being abusive to the point of threatening towards those who aren’t interested

Or like the person at my work on Friday who thought it was acceptable to come and use the hot desk in my office to watch the match in the evening (and who found that by the time he’d had to go somewhere else he’d sadly now missed half of it, what a shame).

On top, of course, of all the trouble they cause on trains.

These are all real-life experiences, lest one be accused of picking on this particular group, and experiences which don’t seem to happen with other followings.

 

[Runningaround]

Football fans:
Are football fans issued with a licence for anti-social behaviour in public? Seeing them on the way to a match you would think they have one
In London, on match days, as many as 1 in 7 of the Police Force are allocated to controlling football fans to keep the peace .Such a waste of a valuable resource

You are aware that the clubs via fans tickets are paying the police and don't have any choice on the amounts of officer's present or cost of policing? Are your local clubs, and pubs or CAMRA festival asked/told to pay x amount of extra on the door to be allowed to run so cover the extra policing needed for events involve alcohol.
Will you be escorted to and from the venue and told that you cannot enter a pub of your choice, you can't stop to use the toilet, or you will have to remain in the venue even if your trains about to leave?
The rail industry earns a significant amount of income off travelling football fans and even sponsor clubs and offer deals on tickets for ticket holders. But it's making it so hard to use many are opting for the supporters coach or driving. If it was bothered by the alcohol itself why sell beer at stations and off trolleys first thing in the morning?
In Germany travel by public transport is encouraged so much so it's free in the locality hours before and after the game and the Germans drink far more than us at games. Queues of trains, trams and buses ready to take you home an ability to lengthen trains during big games with a rail network that's not so spilt up and limited it's not ''caught out'' by fixtures arranged over four years ago or has been played at the same time of year almost since the railways began.

 

[Runningaround]

Mostly they're just noisy more than anything, I'm on both sides of the fence here, they can be intimidating but again 90 percent of the time are harmless fare paying passengers.

The other point I'd make is that their movement is entirely predictable in the fact you have the kick off time so you have a fare idea of the trains they'll be on

Tell that to the TOC'S the numbers are predictable but even before Covid, the staff shortages and strikes they still got caught out by big numbers attending say a Cup Final that's been held for almost 150 years, or a new stadium being built with a bigger capacity no wonder so many clubs are moving out of town it's a lot easier to access them by road.

 

[Bantamzen]

Absolutely. This mirrors my experience too. It’s a minority but a very vociferous one. Rather than getting offended football fans would do better to ensure that they and those they travel with are part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

So just to clarify, you are wanting passengers travelling to football matches to manage other passengers travelling to football matches? Do we get paid, or is there a discount on our fare?

Honestly do people really believe that the minority of fans who misbehave only do so when they are going to a game? The fact that these people behave badly isn't because of football, its because they are badly behaved people. The fact that it seems to happen more with football fans is simply a numbers thing, on an average Saturday afternoon anywhere between 1 and 2 million people will be travelling to a game. After all football is our national game, and by far the most supported. What you are seeing isn't a reflection on football fans, but of society in general. And that becomes all our responsibility. Bring kids up with a good sense of morality, and there is a good chance they won't act like hooligans. And guess what if they behave better during football games, they will also behave better on nights out and at other social gatherings.

Or we could just point out fingers at one group or another and blame them instead. I mean that's so much easier...

 

[LCC106]

I THINK 43066 just means everyone should behave in the first place. I’ve seen pictures of thousands of pounds worth of damage done to a carriage by a group of football supporters. They don’t help themselves. Obviously they’re not representative of all of them.

 

[Bantamzen]

I THINK 43066 just means everyone should behave in the first place. I’ve seen pictures of thousands of pounds worth of damage done to a carriage by a group of football supporters. They don’t help themselves. Obviously they’re not representative of all of them.

So just to clarify, its only football fans that do this?

 

[LCC106]

I haven’t experienced other groups vandalising to that degree but am not saying it doesn’t happen. Saturday night drinkers can be cheerful singing all the way home. To another extreme they can be violent, throwing glass bottles. It’s a sad element of today’s society and BTP just keep putting the drunkards on to the trains to get rid.

 

[Bantamzen]

I haven’t experienced other groups vandalising to that degree but am not saying it doesn’t happen. Saturday night drinkers can be cheerful singing all the way home. To another extreme they can be violent, throwing glass bottles. It’s a sad element of today’s society and BTP just keep putting the drunkards on to the trains to get rid.

Really, you've never seen groups causing problems on trains when not going to a football match? I know have, in fact I'd say the worst of the problems occur when people have had too much to drink, and that can happen any day of the week & is not exclusive of football fans.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Really, you've never seen groups causing problems on trains when not going to a football match? I know have, in fact I'd say the worst of the problems occur when people have had too much to drink, and that can happen any day of the week & is not exclusive of football fans.

We are all talking about our personal experiences regarding ASB o the railway, you might not agree with it but if that's what the posters are saying they have observed then you should agree to disagree.

My personal experience has already been said, but I've had issues with drunks on a Friday/Saturday night but only on stations.
I've had many trains full of rugby fans being rather loud but never any bother other than banter.
I've had many occasions of football fans pulling egress handles and forcing out of use toilet doors open and peeing in sight of everyone. Not to mention the cases at my depot of uncontrolled evacuations being done by fans of midlands clubs.

You may say, but how do I know they are/aren't football fans? The vast majority wear club colours either as the top or scarf from my experience so it's very easy to spot the football/rugby fans. Though possibly there are incidents where they aren't wearing club colours that I've put down as not football related of course.

 

[LCC106]

I’ve mentioned people drinking in the quote you posted. Other than when at work driving trains no, I haven’t experienced groups causing trouble personally. Possibly because I live somewhere a bit quieter generally?

 

[Towers]

So just to clarify, its only football fans that do this?

There is a widely known, globally recognised problem culture around football which has existed for generations. It isn't a surprise that fans travelling en masse, contained within train carriages, is a common flashpoint for problem behaviour occuring. That some fans get so sensitive about it being called out is rather odd, to be honest. I fully appreciate that the majority of fans probably aren't part of it, but sadly the proportion who are cause significant issues; it's hardly discrete. The wider football community being in denial about some of the utterly toxic cultures that have plagued the sport for decades, is never going to help address the issues.

 

[Bantamzen]

We are all talking about our personal experiences regarding ASB o the railway, you might not agree with it but if that's what the posters are saying they have observed then you should agree to disagree.

My personal experience has already been said, but I've had issues with drunks on a Friday/Saturday night but only on stations.
I've had many trains full of rugby fans being rather loud but never any bother other than banter.
I've had many occasions of football fans pulling egress handles and forcing out of use toilet doors open and peeing in sight of everyone. Not to mention the cases at my depot of uncontrolled evacuations being done by fans of midlands clubs.

You may say, but how do I know they are/aren't football fans? The vast majority wear club colours either as the top or scarf from my experience so it's very easy to spot the football/rugby fans. Though possibly there are incidents where they aren't wearing club colours that I've put down as not football related of course.

Fun fact, most football hooligans don't wear club colours. I know this because I am a football fan who has travelled to over 140 grounds following my team. Also it should be obvious why they don't.

I’ve mentioned people drinking in the quote you posted. Other than when at work driving trains no, I haven’t experienced groups causing trouble personally. Possibly because I live somewhere a bit quieter generally?

Seriously? Well then perhaps you do live somewhere quieter. Because trust me when I say this as a passenger & a football fan, most football fans are not anything like the prejudiced view of some on here. And speaking of which....

There is a widely known, globally recognised problem culture around football which has existed for generations. It isn't a surprise that fans travelling en masse, contained within train carriages, is a common flashpoint for problem behaviour occuring. That some fans get so sensitive about it being called out is rather odd, to be honest. I fully appreciate that the majority of fans probably aren't part of it, but sadly the proportion who are cause significant issues; it's hardly discrete. The wider football community being in denial about some of the utterly toxic cultures that have plagued the sport for decades, is never going to help address the issues.

Is there really? Or as I stated previously, maybe the problem is with the wider society? However if you would like to back your assertions with data I would be fascinated to see it. So please demonstrate that football fans are the most serious cause of problems on the railways.

Prejudice much?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Fun fact, most football hooligans don't wear club colours. I know this because I am a football fan who has travelled to over 140 grounds following my team. Also it should be obvious why they don't.


Seriously? Well then perhaps you do live somewhere quieter. Because trust me when I say this as a passenger & a football fan, most football fans are not anything like the prejudiced view of some on here. And speaking of which....


Is there really? Or as I stated previously, maybe the problem is with the wider society? However if you would like to back your assertions with data I would be fascinated to see it. So please demonstrate that football fans are the most serious cause of problems on the railways.

Prejudice much?

Exactly, so it's not the hooligans who cause the issues several of us have said we've experienced regularly. Therefore it's the supposed normal football fans. Obviously it's a small minority that cause the issues, but many have said it's part of the reason they wouldn't work extra Saturdays which was the point of this topic

 

[Bantamzen]

Exactly, so it's not the hooligans who cause the issues several of us have said we've experienced regularly. Therefore it's the supposed normal football fans. Obviously it's a small minority that cause the issues, but many have said it's part of the reason they wouldn't work extra Saturdays which was the point of this topic

Erm wait? Its not the hooligans that cause the problem, its the regular fans traveling fans that are the reason you don't work extra Saturdays? Wow, that is an eye opener.....

 

[Towers]

Is there really? Or as I stated previously, maybe the problem is with the wider society? However if you would like to back your assertions with data I would be fascinated to see it. So please demonstrate that football fans are the most serious cause of problems on the railways.

Prejudice much?

I don't think there really needs to be a discussion about "is there a problem culture around football"; if you prefer not to acknowledge it then that's entirely your choice of course. Don't take it personally, nobody is accusing you! But you aren't going to be persuading any time served rail staff that football fans don't cause issues on trains, I'm afraid.

As for the wider society point, yep there are issues there too, without a doubt. But not in the concentrated, institutionalised way that the problems centred around football tend to present themselves. Two different discussions there.

 

[43066]

So just to clarify, you are wanting passengers travelling to football matches to manage other passengers travelling to football matches? Do we get paid, or is there a discount on our fare?

I think it’s pretty obvious what I meant. If you’re travelling in a group of people and one or more of them starts behaving in a vile and disgusting way, you know like being steaming drunk and vandalising a train at 0800 in the morning, then call them out, rather than egging them on….

Really, you've never seen groups causing problems on trains when not going to a football match? I know have, in fact I'd say the worst of the problems occur when people have had too much to drink, and that can happen any day of the week & is not exclusive of football fans.

So, just to clarify, as someone who doesn’t even work in the railway industry, you’re contradicting all the experienced traincrew on this thread who have said that football fans as a collective distinguish themselves from other groups in causing major problems, and saying they’re all wrong?! Ok then!

 

[Bantamzen]

I don't think there really needs to be a discussion about "is there a problem culture around football"; if you prefer not to acknowledge it then that's entirely your choice of course. Don't take it personally, nobody is accusing you! But you aren't going to be persuading any time served rail staff that football fans don't cause issues on trains, I'm afraid.

As for the wider society point, yep there are issues there too, without a doubt. But not in the concentrated, institutionalised way that the problems centred around football tend to present themselves. Two different discussions there.

You should maybe try to actually read what I wrote. I do acknowledge there is a problem, but it is not confined to football as has been suggested here on this thread.

I think it’s pretty obvious what I meant. If you’re travelling in a group of people and one or more of them starts behaving in a vile and disgusting way, you know like being steaming drunk and vandalising a train at 0800 in the morning, then call them out, rather than egging them on….

So what you are asking is that if some massively drunk idiot kicks off, we should try to stop them? And what happens if they turn on us?

So just to clarify, as someone who doesn’t even work in the railway industry, you’re contradicting all the experienced traincrew on this thread who have said that football fans as a collective distinguish themselves from other groups in causing major problems, and saying they’re all wrong?!

In a word yes. It has become so apparent in this thread that there is a massive prejudice against football fans. As usual it a case of blame everybody else instead of actually trying to resolve the problem at hand, which I articulated up thread.

 

[Towers]

You should maybe try to actually read what I wrote. I do acknowledge there is a problem, but it is not confined to football as has been suggested here on this thread.

Oh definitely it isn't just football fans, not by any means; I completely agree there!

 

[43066]

You should maybe try to actually read what I wrote. I do acknowledge there is a problem, but it is not confined to football as has been suggested here on this thread.

You don’t seem to be willing to acknowledge that football fans as a group cause more problems than any other single group, to the point where their reputation very much precedes them. It’s not clear why you think you are in a position to contradict the crew commenting on these threads, shock horror, many of whom are likely to be football fans themselves!

So what you are asking is that if some massively drunk idiot kicks off, we should try to stop them? And what happens if they turn on us?

If that’s how your mates who you travel to football matches behave, perhaps you should choose some different ones!

Other highlights: recently a bunch of fans fighting with each other to the point where children of families travelling on a day out were scared to tears, and the families choose to get off the train to wait for the next one (do you think they had a good experience of rail travel that day?). Again this was (IIRC) on a Saturday morning. Another one that springs to mind, a few years back now before I joined the railway, was my then girlfriend coming home in tears after having had racist abuse shouted at her by Millwall fans as she walked through London Bridge station. This is the kind of absolutely vile behaviour that certain fans engage in and is why many people on the railway dread working trains carrying them to and from matches.

It isn’t only football fans, and it isn’t all football fans who cause problems, but there isn’t a single other group I can think of who cause quite as many issues, as a collective.

In a word yes. It has become so apparent in this thread that there is a massive prejudice against football fans. As usual it a case of blame everybody else instead of actually trying to resolve the problem at hand, which I articulated up thread.

Nobody is blaming anyone other than the fans who cause the issue. You’re clearly in denial and, as usual, arguing black is white for the sake of it, so there’s little point discussing it further.

 

[Ken H]

Its not football thats the issue. Its the fact that there is a drinking culture at weekends. And large groups of people who have taken drink get scary for others. A type of mass hysteria.

 

[O L Leigh]

It has become so apparent in this thread that there is a massive prejudice against football fans. As usual it a case of blame everybody else instead of actually trying to resolve the problem at hand, which I articulated up thread.

I don’t think there is any prejudice. We’re discussing Saturdays on the railway and, as a result, the impact of travelling football fans as a thread is firmly on-topic.

No-one has said that every football fan is a problem, but it is undeniable that groups of travelling fans can cause problems and that, of all travelling groups, it’s these otherwise fine ladies and gentlemen that are most likely to be involved. I would also counter your assertion that anyone engaging in bad behaviour as a travelling fan is not using football as a motivation and is a bad person anyway.

I happen to agree that we have a society-wide culture issue, but I don’t think there is any other group in which that becomes so magnified than among travelling fans.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I don’t think there is any prejudice. We’re discussing Saturdays on the railway and, as a result, the impact of travelling football fans as a thread is firmly on-topic.

No-one has said that every football fan is a problem, but it is undeniable that groups of travelling fans can cause problems and that, of all travelling groups, it’s these otherwise fine ladies and gentlemen that are most likely to be involved. I would also counter your assertion that anyone engaging in bad behaviour as a travelling fan is not using football as a motivation and is a bad person anyway.

I happen to agree that we have a society-wide culture issue, but I don’t think there is any other group in which that becomes so magnified than among travelling fans.

Stag and hen dos, maybe? Mind you they often travel up Friday and back Sunday; the latter being a considerably quieter day for the majority!

 

[O L Leigh]

Stag and hen dos, maybe? Mind you they often travel up Friday and back Sunday; the latter being a considerably quieter day for the majority!

Perhaps, but personally I’ve never experienced any problems with them.

 

[43066]

Stag and hen dos, maybe? Mind you they often travel up Friday and back Sunday; the latter being a considerably quieter day for the majority!

They can certainly be rowdy (hens often worse than stags!) but typically are independent smallish groups, not scores or hundreds on a single train.