Saturdays on the railway in general

[gazzaa2]

Also, much of the worst overcrowding on weekends is a result of engineering works which increases the demand on other routes and operators. Engineering works of course are mostly done at weekends. And there just isn't enough rolling stock/services on a lot of operators to carry extra passengers. When you add the staffing issues at the likes of Avanti and TPEX in particular and it's a perfect storm for operators like LNWR who have to carry a hell of a lot more passengers on their Euston services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also, much of the worst overcrowding on weekends is a result of engineering works which increases the demand on other routes and operators. Engineering works of course are mostly done at weekends. And there just isn't enough rolling stock/services on a lot of operators to carry extra passengers. When you add the staffing issues at the likes of Avanti and TPEX in particular and it's a perfect storm for operators like LNWR who have to carry a hell of a lot more passengers on their Euston services.

I reckon the LNR situation will improve quite a lot when the second Birmingham comes back in December. Presently there is only 1tph, with the other terminating at Northampton with the connection to London being the following one from Birmingham so it won't show in planners despite having tons of spare capacity. (The connections work the other way round though).

This will double the capacity from 8 cars per hour to 16.

 

[yorksrob]

And there just isn't enough rolling stock/services on a lot of operators to carry extra passengers.

And if there was, it would be straight off to the scrap yard faster than you could say Jack Robinson.

 

[12C]

Simply move if asked to do so, unless you have a better suggestion?

That’s infinitely preferable to being on a train that SPADs or crashes into buffer stops because the driver has become distracted!

As a parent myself if I had ever been asked to move seats by traincrew because of my baby crying I would have been mortified, using public transport with babies is incredibly stressful as it is and it requires military effort just to find space in the first place and stow away all the paraphernalia you need with you. Frankly if a driver is more prone to SPAD or crash into buffers because of a baby crying in the saloon they are in the wrong job on a passenger TOC.

Illegal behaviour such as smoking drugs or deliberately trying to bang on the cab door to distract the driver is a completely different matter and crew have every right to challenge it.

 

[bramling]

As a parent myself if I had ever been asked to move seats by traincrew because of my baby crying I would have been mortified, using public transport with babies is incredibly stressful as it is and it requires military effort just to find space in the first place and stow away all the paraphernalia you need with you. Frankly if a driver is more prone to SPAD or crash into buffers because of a baby crying in the saloon they are in the wrong job on a passenger TOC.

I can see two sides to this one, however at the end of the day cabs aren’t that well soundproofed in many cases, and a baby constantly screaming *is* going to be distracting after a while.

I suspect most drivers would tolerate a screaming baby as one of those facts of life, however screaming baby + Jeremy Kyle family playing music and generally being a thorough nuisance would be another matter.

There’s certainly some merit in the suggestion of the areas adjacent to the cabs being quiet areas. Indeed it’s also a good reason why this makes a good location for first class, though of course that can also introduce its own issues at times. I’ve seen drivers lock out the front first class section on Luton to Rainham Thameslink services, which is presumably to prevent it becoming a magnet for problem types.

 

[43066]

As a parent myself if I had ever been asked to move seats by traincrew because of my baby crying I would have been mortified, using public transport with babies is incredibly stressful as it is and it requires military effort just to find space in the first place and stow away all the paraphernalia you need with you. Frankly if a driver is more prone to SPAD or crash into buffers because of a baby crying in the saloon they are in the wrong job on a passenger TOC.

Illegal behaviour such as smoking drugs or deliberately trying to bang on the cab door to distract the driver is a completely different matter and crew have every right to challenge it.

On the contrary, distraction is a known risk and is taken very seriously, hence the strict rules about not using electronic devices in the cab etc.

As such train crew have every right to challenge behaviour that they find distracting - whether that’s playing music, crying babies or smoking (someone smoking is probably less distracting than either of the first two). Whether it’s illegal or not is completely irrelevant.

I suspect most drivers would tolerate a screaming baby as one of those facts of life, however screaming baby + Jeremy Kyle family playing music and generally being a thorough nuisance would be another matter.

Indeed but there is a limit to what individuals can tolerate, as with everything else. Nobody wants to go back and challenge anyone as these days you never know what you’re walking back to!

Asking someone with a baby to move is not something I’ve ever had to do personally but was occasionally an issue at my last TOC where the sound proofing was poor to the point you could hear peoples’ conversations when they sat immediately behind the cab.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Nov 2022 ==

I’ve seen drivers lock out the front first class section on Luton to Rainham Thameslink services, which is presumably to prevent it becoming a magnet for problem types.

Indeed. Unfortunately there is some truly terrible behaviour on TL services and generally no on train staff to challenge it (there are roving REO patrols but they are few and far between), so that seems like a sensible thing to do, especially late at night.

 

[12C]

On the contrary, distraction is a known risk and is taken very seriously, hence the strict rules about not using electronic devices in the cab etc.

As such train crew have every right to challenge behaviour that they find distracting - whether that’s playing music, crying babies or smoking (someone smoking is probably less distracting than either of the first two). Whether it’s illegal or not is completely irrelevant.

I don’t disagree it can be a distraction but I just say that as surely on a passenger TOC, especially on regional units without space between the cab and saloon issues such as babies crying are part and parcel of the job and will be experienced on virtually a daily basis, and experienced many times in training. I’m not sure this is in the same league as the driver using electronic devices in the cab.

I personally don’t think crew have any right to make a young mother or father move who were innocently trying to soothe a crying baby. I would argue drivers are selected for the job, trained and highly paid on their ability to manage distractions such as this and maintain focus.

 

[43066]

I don’t disagree it can be a distraction but I just say that as surely on a passenger TOC, especially on regional units without space between the cab and saloon issues such as babies crying are part and parcel of the job and will be experienced on virtually a daily basis, and experienced many times in training. I’m not sure this is in the same league as the driver using electronic devices in the cab.

I speak from experience as a former bus driver with the pushchair space directly beginning the driving seat. If I was unable to concentrate and drive safely with the sound of a baby crying behind me I wouldn’t have made it through a single day.

To be clear this isn’t something that is generally an issue, noise from phones etc is far more common. But persistent crying is potentially just as distracting. Therefore it’s quite right that it would be dealt with in the same way if it becomes a problem. I really don’t see why anyone should be “mortified” at a polite request to move - is it really so unreasonable to expect parents choosing to use public transport to consider those around them? Sadly many do not as I experience all too often as a passenger myself.

I would have hoped that a bus driver would also be willing and able to challenge behaviour they find distracting. If they cannot that says something quite negative about the bus industry, and rather underlines my impression that it takes safety rather less seriously than the railway.

 

[12C]

If they cannot that says something quite negative about the bus industry, and rather underlines my impression that it takes safety rather less seriously than the railway.

I think we may have to agree to disagree here, although you may want to rethink your profile photo before criticising safety in other industries

 

[43066]

I think we may have to agree to disagree here, although you may want to rethink your profile photo before criticising safety in other industries

Always happy to agree to disagree - as I say it isn’t something that comes up often.

Touché re the photo .

 

[Edsmith]

As a parent myself if I had ever been asked to move seats by traincrew because of my baby crying I would have been mortified, using public transport with babies is incredibly stressful as it is and it requires military effort just to find space in the first place and stow away all the paraphernalia you need with you. Frankly if a driver is more prone to SPAD or crash into buffers because of a baby crying in the saloon they are in the wrong job on a passenger TOC.

Illegal behaviour such as smoking drugs or deliberately trying to bang on the cab door to distract the driver is a completely different matter and crew have every right to challenge it.

Isn't mortified a bit strong? I'd have been quite happy to move but I suspect most drivers wouldn't ask unless the crying really was excessive and prolonged.

 

[Skiddaw]

Isn't mortified a bit strong? I'd have been quite happy to move but I suspect most drivers wouldn't ask unless the crying really was excessive and prolonged.

Have to say I'd have been furious if it was me. Being asked to move due to a crying baby is outrageous IMO.

 

[philthetube]

Have to say I'd have been furious if it was me. Being asked to move due to a crying baby is outrageous IMO.

A crying baby is not a pleasant sound, and very distracting, this is by design as it is not supposed to be ignored, Imaging having music , of a type you hate constantly played nest to you at the volume of a baby, are you going to concentrate on what you are doing as well as you would if it was quiet, if the answer is no, you cannot expect a driver to be different, and do you want to sit behind a driver not performing to the optimum level.

 

[LCC106]

As a parent it can be extremely stressful settling a crying baby. As a train driver you have to maintain concentration for several hours at a time. Imagine driving on yellow signals, where you have to acknowledge a warning horn within a limited timeframe, observing track workers in the distance and blowing your horn, lifting your foot off the driver safety device that beeps around every 60 seconds during periods of inactivity on the power or brake control, remembering any instructions you may have been given via the signaller or weekly operating notice about speed restrictions and hearing a loud mobile conversation/rowdy group of passengers/crying baby or anything else you wish to insert there then remembering you’re coming up to a red at the same time. I think most drivers would try not to ask a family in a stressful situation like that not to move but it can cause great distraction, headaches etc.

 

[Skiddaw]

A crying baby is not a pleasant sound, and very distracting, this is by design as it is not supposed to be ignored, Imaging having music , of a type you hate constantly played nest to you at the volume of a baby, are you going to concentrate on what you are doing as well as you would if it was quiet, if the answer is no, you cannot expect a driver to be different, and do you want to sit behind a driver not performing to the optimum level.

To be honest, I'd have rather expected train/bus drivers to be used to those sort of possible distractions. Doesn't it rather come with the territory? Still, I've not been there so I realise I'm not really in any position to comment. I just feel that if I was a parent with a crying baby (which, after all, is what babies tend to do) I'd find it both upsetting and embarrasing if I was asked to move.

Ah well- I'll back off now...

 

[12C]

Isn't mortified a bit strong? I'd have been quite happy to move but I suspect most drivers wouldn't ask unless the crying really was excessive and prolonged.

I personally wouldn’t say it was too strong, I remember occasionally using the train when our kids were babies and it could be very stressful at a time in your life when stress levels can naturally be high anyway and you are already very aware of judgemental looks/comments from other passengers.

Trying to find a seat on a busy train, then trying to find room for pushchair and nappy bag etc, not helped by many passengers refusing to move bags etc because they didn’t want you to sit next to them. Then dealing with the demands of a baby wanting fed/changed during the journey. If I’d managed to get settled down then was asked by staff to get up again and move all the stuff elsewhere, especially in front of all the other passengers I would have felt mortified, as would my wife if she had been travelling alone. I appreciate it’s not ideally what a driver would want to hear but I would imagine it will be a very regular occurrence driving units and would hope drivers are taught techniques to maintain concentration in such circumstances.

To be honest babies crying usually doesn’t last as long as it can feel sometimes, and you can guarantee most parents will be trying every trick in the book to settle them down.

 

[LCC106]

We don’t get trained in managing distractions like that from within the train. That said my experience of distractions on units is more the noisy adults, those on phones, singing and smell of smoke than crying babies. If it’s THAT bad eg a really rowdy unpleasant group vandalising our workplace we can always opt for British Transport Police to meet the train at a station.

 

[bramling]

I personally wouldn’t say it was too strong, I remember occasionally using the train when our kids were babies and it could be very stressful at a time in your life when stress levels can naturally be high anyway and you are already very aware of judgemental looks/comments from other passengers.

Trying to find a seat on a busy train, then trying to find room for pushchair and nappy bag etc, not helped by many passengers refusing to move bags etc because they didn’t want you to sit next to them. Then dealing with the demands of a baby wanting fed/changed during the journey. If I’d managed to get settled down then was asked by staff to get up again and move all the stuff elsewhere, especially in front of all the other passengers I would have felt mortified, as would my wife if she had been travelling alone. I appreciate it’s not ideally what a driver would want to hear but I would imagine it will be a very regular occurrence driving units and would hope drivers are taught techniques to maintain concentration in such circumstances.

To be honest babies crying usually doesn’t last as long as it can feel sometimes, and you can guarantee most parents will be trying every trick in the book to settle them down.

I don’t think many drivers would make a thing over a baby crying for a few minutes.

What’s going to be more of an issue is if you’ve got a family from hell going for their day out to the seaside, and as well as a screaming baby you’ve got a couple of kids making a noise (nowadays probably with some kind of electronic device blaring out rubbish), and probably a couple of adults doing same whilst making no attempt to pacify the baby. In that situation it’s probably more reasonable to be one warning and then booted off, though.

 

[Sprinter107]

I don’t think many drivers would make a thing over a baby crying for a few minutes.

What’s going to be more of an issue is if you’ve got a family from hell going for their day out to the seaside, and as well as a screaming baby you’ve got a couple of kids making a noise (nowadays probably with some kind of electronic device blaring out rubbish), and probably a couple of adults doing same whilst making no attempt to pacify the baby. In that situation it’s probably more reasonable to be one warning and then booted off, though.

I think that sums it up perfectly.

 

[Drogba11CFC]

I don’t think many drivers would make a thing over a baby crying for a few minutes.

What’s going to be more of an issue is if you’ve got a family from hell going for their day out to the seaside, and as well as a screaming baby you’ve got a couple of kids making a noise (nowadays probably with some kind of electronic device blaring out rubbish), and probably a couple of adults doing same whilst making no attempt to pacify the baby. In that situation it’s probably more reasonable to be one warning and then booted off, though.

Only for the local Mumsnet to hold a "scream-in" on your next train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Only for the local Mumsnet to hold a "scream-in" on your next train.

"We regret to announce that this train will terminate here due to the driver not being fit to continue in service".

 

[E27007]

The problem is the vocal minority who cause problems.

Today I booked on at work. I was confronted on leaving the office with a tidal wave of football fans shouting. I got to my train, which they'd helpfully wrecked, with cans and bottles spilt and dumped everywhere.

On the way I passed another guard who had been pushed out of their train and called a four letter word starting with c by another group of fans - they were walking off the job and going home causing a pair of cancellations.

On arrival at a station I was met with another group of fans (so that's 3 naughty minority groups already in an hour) who wouldn't stop leaning on the side of my train preventing it from departing and stopping their own from arriving and had a go at me when I asked them to move. The same was being replicated on other platforms.

Later I have a load of race goers and a beer festival to contend with.

I work Saturdays because I've always liked a drink myself and have a pretty high tolerance for misbehaviour. I've been thrown up on, sworn at, threatened and had to carry unconscious people around etc.

Like my colleague above I do work them as overtime because I am loathe to undertake any leisure activity on a Saturday so unless I visit my folks or volunteer at a heritage railway I may as well earn some extra money. I very rarely use the train on a Saturday unless I really have to.

Saturdays in the UK are not pleasant to be around.

Football fans:
Are football fans issued with a licence for anti-social behaviour in public? Seeing them on the way to a match you would think they have one
In London, on match days, as many as 1 in 7 of the Police Force are allocated to controlling football fans to keep the peace .Such a waste of a valuable resource

 

[SussexSeagull]

Football fans:
Are football fans issued with a licence for anti-social behaviour in public? Seeing them on the way to a match you would think they have one
In London, on match days, as many as 1 in 7 of the Police Force are allocated to controlling football fans to keep the peace .Such a waste of a valuable resource

Football fans actually have more restrictions on their freedoms than practically any other group in society with a raft of laws that come into effect the minute you go near a football ground.

 

[Dai Corner]

Football fans actually have more restrictions on their freedoms than practically any other group in society with a raft of laws that come into effect the minute you go near a football ground.

Or even get on a coach on the way to a match.

 

[Bantamzen]

Football fans:
Are football fans issued with a licence for anti-social behaviour in public? Seeing them on the way to a match you would think they have one
In London, on match days, as many as 1 in 7 of the Police Force are allocated to controlling football fans to keep the peace .Such a waste of a valuable resource

As a football fan I confirm there is no such licence, as there is not for rugby fans, stag & hen parties, the lads going to the pub, teenagers....

 

[robrymond]

I'm travelling to Shrewsbury from Nantwich tomorrow on TFW. I knew there was strike action but then realised that basically most operators from Crewe to Birmingham won't be running. Does anyone know what the TFW services have been like on previous strike days; as they are busy enough on a Saturday anyway usually?

 

[Adrian1980uk]

As a football fan I confirm there is no such licence, as there is not for rugby fans, stag & hen parties, the lads going to the pub, teenagers....

Mostly they're just noisy more than anything, I'm on both sides of the fence here, they can be intimidating but again 90 percent of the time are harmless fare paying passengers.

The other point I'd make is that their movement is entirely predictable in the fact you have the kick off time so you have a fare idea of the trains they'll be on

 

[O L Leigh]

Football fans

There are all manner of groups that travel en masse who can be noisy, but my experience is that football fans are by far the loudest and potentially the most intimidating. I agree that the majority seem to travel peacefully, but "because it's for football" does seem to be an excuse for the sort of behaviours that I would not imagine they would engage in when travelling for any other reason. Behaviour that is suitable for the football ground is not necessarily suitable anywhere else, especially in a potentially crowded shared space where there are other people who don't share the same interest or social dynamics. Travelling fans who don't seem to respect that have been the cause of anxiety among other passengers, and I have seen people leaving the train in tears because of it. It's only for football fans that I've had to open the cab door and ask that they keep the noise down, but it doesn't always work and has sometimes just makes them even louder. Such is the respect they show.

Distractions can be part and parcel of the job, but that doesn't mean that a driver has to put up with it if it's becoming a potential problem. Some classes of train don't have enough separation between cab and saloon to permit adequate noise insulation and you really can hear everything that goes on the other side of the door. It's the driver's responsibility to ensure the safe working of the train, and if something compromises that, it is down to the driver to do what they can to mitigate it.

 

[SussexSeagull]

So football fans are the cause of the currently poor Saturday service? Who knew?

 

[43066]

So football fans are the cause of the currently poor Saturday service? Who knew?

Where has that been suggested, please?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Nov 2022 ==

There are all manner of groups that travel en masse who can be noisy, but my experience is that football fans are by far the loudest and potentially the most intimidating. I agree that the majority seem to travel peacefully, but "because it's for football" does seem to be an excuse for the sort of behaviours that I would not imagine they would engage in when travelling for any other reason. Behaviour that is suitable for the football ground is not necessarily suitable anywhere else, especially in a potentially crowded shared space where there are other people who don't share the same interest or social dynamics. Travelling fans who don't seem to respect that have been the cause of anxiety among other passengers, and I have seen people leaving the train in tears because of it. It's only for football fans that I've had to open the cab door and ask that they keep the noise down, but it doesn't always work and has sometimes just makes them even louder. Such is the respect they show.

Absolutely. This mirrors my experience too. It’s a minority but a very vociferous one. Rather than getting offended football fans would do better to ensure that they and those they travel with are part of the solution rather than part of the problem.