Sat Nav for a train?

[PermitToTravel]

Which is a crying shame, and wouldn't be the case if Network Rail chose one standard and told the TOCs to implement it. See also: ASDO

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Weer had to go on a DAS course a while back, the most useful feature on it was the ability to make it go blank.

It's an insult to the driving profession.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Deleted

 

[fairysdad]

You know that a certain pattern of lights on a nearby farm means that you need to start braking for the unsigned Heavy axle weight restricted bridge. You know that when you pass a certain house or road bridge, you better start taking the appropriate action (either braking or accelerating).

I've probably been watching too much Thomas, but if one of your markers was the lights on a building, and you noticed that something wasn't quite right (lights not being on at a certain time or something) would you query it? Or if you saw a remote farmhouse with smoke billowing out of it, would you call it in?

 

[jon0844]

Given how sat nav has mislead many car drivers into going into fields, lakes, even driving on railway lines - I think this is a terrible idea. Imagine the headline. Train missed station due to sat nav error.

I'd love to read a story about a train driver that accidentally took the wrong turn at a level crossing and ended up on the high street...

 

[Gathursty]

I'd love to read a story about a train driver that accidentally took the wrong turn at a level crossing and ended up on the high street...

They wouldn't bat an eyelid in Shoreditch!

 

[Jamesb1974]

Deleted

 

[neilb62]

Useful explanation A-driver.

What info does a guard need to know about a specific route.

The route he is travelling over, the classification of the line, the block signalling system in use in the area, station names, platform lengths, method of station working, platform starting signals, the location (and names of) of tunnels, bridges, viaducts etc, junctions (and names), Junction signals, signal boxes, and much much more.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The route he is travelling over, the classification of the line, the block signalling system in use in the area, station names, platform lengths, method of station working, platform starting signals, the location (and names of) of tunnels, bridges, viaducts etc, junctions (and names), Junction signals, signal boxes, and much much more.

Is the guard's route knowledge basically the same as the driver's then?

 

[TDK]

Is the guard's route knowledge basically the same as the driver's then?

Simple answer is no. A drivers route knowledge far exceeds what a guard needs to know.
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Weer had to go on a DAS course a while back, the most useful feature on it was the ability to make it go blank.

It's an insult to the driving profession.

Why do you say that, The system is in place to save fuel, to keep a train in it's booked path so avoiding having to slow for danger signals so often, to help the carbon foot print, it displays your exact location in Miles and chains. It may be an insult to you but not to everyone. I have been using DAS and find it quite useful although it does need work on it to ensure it is 100% accurate.

Maybe it is too complex for you to understand how it works and what it is actually for!
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Most of all, you know the weird little place names that mean nothing outside the environment you're in. Because when it goes t*ts up, you need to be able to tell the signaller exactly where you are and on which line. Up or Down? Goods or relief? Through siding or loop?

Believe it or not DAS displays your exact mileage and the line you are on. Useful if you are in the middle of nowhere.

 

[neilb62]

Is the guard's route knowledge basically the same as the driver's then?

No, far less, the guard only has to be 'acquainted' with the route effectively. The Driver has through route-knowledge. Mind you the more the guard knows the more help he is to the Driver when things go wrong. Some of ours are very keen.

 

[IanXC]

Ah, I presumed that a guard can, after training, pick up any route going anywhere provided they've been given the calling pattern.

So for a further question, how can a sat nav or similar electronic gadget be used to reduce cancellations by lack of available guards that can sign a given route?

I read this more as, if you had a qualified guard, who did not sign the route, could they be assisted by some kind of device, and thus able to operate the service rather than cancel?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Simple answer is no. A drivers route knowledge far exceeds what a guard needs to know.
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Why do you say that, The system is in place to save fuel, to keep a train in it's booked path so avoiding having to slow for danger signals so often, to help the carbon foot print, it displays your exact location in Miles and chains. It may be an insult to you but not to everyone. I have been using DAS and find it quite useful although it does need work on it to ensure it is 100% accurate.

Maybe it is too complex for you to understand how it works and what it is actually for!
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Believe it or not DAS displays your exact mileage and the line you are on. Useful if you are in the middle of nowhere.

Sorry but that's complete BS, it doesn't know which track it's on you have to input that manually, you have to input your train length and pay number etc, a significant number of people have said that they won't be using the pay number and removing their name from it too. They've also said it's an unnecessary distraction in the cab, so off it will go.

We've been told that all of the TSRs & ESRs will be in there and all sorts of stuff. Really? They can't get the LNC screen right or send us the relevant notices by fax right yet.

Besides thanks to the lame traincrew diagrammers who've restricted our route and traction knowledge, most of the trains we'll work won't have it fitted anyway.

 

[ComUtoR]

Sorry but that's complete BS, it doesn't know which track it's on you have to input that manually, you have to input your train length and pay number etc, a significant number of people have said that they won't be using the pay number and removing their name from it too.

So if you input the details incorrectly it doesn't know ? I thought it had GPS ?

Why would it need your pay number ?

And for train length IF its giving out stopping pattern etc and you input the wrong train length does it know ? If for example you input 12 in error and your routed down a line where there is only 8 car platforms does it still accept the route ?

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

I'm not being a luddite here but sat nav hardly works in my car and I end up dragging my maps out and start thinking: " Why has the stupid b**** taken me from A to B with a side trip to C via D ? "

It would have to be pretty darned good to be able to cope with looking sideways out the cab door in fog as thick as last weeks custard looking for a specific cabinet that tells you when to shut off to stop at such and such a station.

You need to REALLY, really, REALLY know your routes, and any reliance on looking down at a sat nav in cab to drive a route you had zero or poor route knowledge over would result in a "Twooooshhhhhhhh" noise and a flashing red light and a two handed struggle to extract the seat cushion in fairly short order.

It is my honest opinion that even a qualified driver stuck in the seat on a route he knew nothing about, with a route map in his hand and going at line speeds would get a fairly short distance before he was exiting the cab, dragging his mobile out of his bag and saying : "Hello ASLEF "

 

[gtr driver]

Thanks, I'd been wondering if some form of GPS-driven audiobook performing the role of route-conductor would do what the OP was after - if they need to be able to apply the emergency brake, then clearly not!

It's for emergency situations. Conducting occurs because you have a driver who knows the traction type but not the route driving and another who know the route but not the traction "guiding" the former over the route. If the driving driver is incapacitated, the conducting driver (who does not know the traction) needs to know how to stop the train and where the emergency gear is - short circuit bar, dets and flags, evacuation ladder etc.

My personal view on this is that the technology to use a "train sat nav" exists and it's just a matter of investment in the infrastructure, cab and line side, as well as development time and testing. If we can replace line side signals with in cab signalling, and already have ATP, it's not a big jump to feeding back other bits of info about the route to the driver. However it's a matter of the quality of information and the technology's ability to act on that information, so if an emergency speed restriction isn't available to the database, or it takes longer for it to replicate than before a train reaches it, then we can't replace the current system of the driver physically seeing and acting on it. Or say for stops, I know where to brake for stations because of my route knowledge, I also know how to adjust that for different length trains or changed railhead conditions. It's a question of whether the algorithms in the software can behave in the same way, otherwise we end up with it advising long periods of caution even if it isn't necessary. But I see no reason why there can't be some applications of sat nav principles. It's a question of how useful it actually is though. But it's certainly not going to lead us into rivers or on to roads.

 

[Gathursty]

I read this more as, if you had a qualified guard, who did not sign the route, could they be assisted by some kind of device, and thus able to operate the service rather than cancel?

Exactly.

 

[A-driver]

I read this more as, if you had a qualified guard, who did not sign the route, could they be assisted by some kind of device, and thus able to operate the service rather than cancel?

They could. A route guide. Or an iPad containing a route guide. Then once they have read said guide and done a few trips over the route to familiarise themselves with the info contained in the guide they will be able to work over that route.

I'm not sure what kind of device could assist a guard or driver any more than this.

 

[exile]

Wouldn't a "train satnav" use lineside equipment to establish where it was, rather than GPS?

 

[TDK]

Sorry but that's complete BS, it doesn't know which track it's on you have to input that manually,

Said by a driver who quoted the only button you use is to turn the screen off? The DAS system the company I work for needs you to input your headcode, pay number, formation and traction type of your train and that is all. It will display the line you are on for instance the UM, DM, or whatever unless there is a multi tack layout and it will show the most likely line for instance US, UF. Maybe your system is set up different. The reason you input your pay number is to access the site to monitor your progress and claim the pay out for being over 80% compliance.

The system is put in place to save fuel, wear and tear and to ensure you are on your booked path this in my book is a good thing and not a bad. It's your choice if you use it or not and I certainly do think it's a distraction.

 

[The Planner]

Which is why I will say again, unless the timetable is bang on in every respect it will never be utilised properly. Arguably if every facet of the timetable is correct would you need it apart from times of pertubation?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Said by a driver who quoted the only button you use is to turn the screen off? The DAS system the company I work for needs you to input your headcode, pay number, formation and traction type of your train and that is all. It will display the line you are on for instance the UM, DM, or whatever unless there is a multi tack layout and it will show the most likely line for instance US, UF. Maybe your system is set up different. The reason you input your pay number is to access the site to monitor your progress and claim the pay out for being over 80% compliance.

The system is put in place to save fuel, wear and tear and to ensure you are on your booked path this in my book is a good thing and not a bad. It's your choice if you use it or not and I certainly do think it's a distraction.

We don't get any money for saving them money on fuel or electricity.

Like I said the system will have those already programmed into each train (allegedly), so you put a key on and it will be there, but you can check it and alter it and that's what I will do, before blanking it.

Sorry but I'm not having something that is a distraction on in the cab, if we're not allowed any electronic device on in the cab, other than GSMR then that goes.

I know my timing so well that I usually arrive within a few seconds of time if not to the second, so I don't need it anyway.

 

[TDK]

Which is why I will say again, unless the timetable is bang on in every respect it will never be utilised properly. Arguably if every facet of the timetable is correct would you need it apart from times of pertubation?

The DAS is updated every few hours with any timetable changes and timings if that's what you mean.
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We don't get any money for saving them money on fuel or electricity.

Like I said the system will have those already programmed into each train (allegedly), so you put a key on and it will be there, but you can check it and alter it and that's what I will do, before blanking it.

Sorry but I'm not having something that is a distraction on in the cab, if we're not allowed any electronic device on in the cab, other than GSMR then that goes.

I know my timing so well that I usually arrive within a few seconds of time if not to the second, so I don't need it anyway.

That's a fair enough comment, we get an incentive payment and a percentage of fuel saved on a cost basis however without all drivers using it there will not be enough savings on fuel costs to merit a payment, if the payment was on an individual basis lets say 30% of the cost of fuel saved then a lot more drivers would use it. As a distraction for me I don't have a problem with it. As for knowing timings we have quite a large route card at our depot and do not have a complete standard pattern timetable so to remember all timings would need a hint from Einstein.

Back to the SAT-NAV issue my belief is you use a SAT-NAV to find your way to a location or to take an alternative route because of traffic. As these two parameters are not a part of driving a train what is the point.

 

[Murph]

The main problem I can see with making the idea work at all is tunnels. Satnavs need line-of-sight to multiple satellites to work out where they are. As anyone who has ever driven a satnav equipped car through a road tunnel knows, you soon lose contact with the satellites, and regaining contact once you've emerged isn't instantaneous either.

That's not true of a high end nav system which is fully integrated into the vehicle. High end systems have a gyroscope and receive a wheel speed input (automatically self-calibrated from times when good satellite coverage is available, so retains accuracy despite changes to wheel diameter). On the high end systems I've used, they get a feed of the same wheel speed data used by the ABS system, over the vehicle's network. This provides a very good inertial navigation system to cover lack of GPS availability, and continues to work perfectly through tunnels and in areas where tall buildings make reliable GPS operation problematic. It is also superior to pure GPS even in perfect GPS conditions, as the gyroscope allows it to instantly react to changes in direction (unlike GPS, which is always catching up what has happened). The accuracy of inertial navigation does fall off over time since last external reference, as with any dead reckoning navigation, but is more than adequate for most common cases on the roads.

Side note: computerised inertial navigation is a very mature technology, dating back to the Apollo space program.

That said, I don't see an automotive type navigation system as being even close to a suitable replacement for professional route knowledge at the front of a train.

 

[JohnElliott]

When the Bluebell was finally connected to the main line at East Grinstead, a class 66 was run down to Sheffield Park for gauging purposes. When this was reported in Bluebell News, the description mentioned the loco's "sat nav" getting more and more confused as it came further south. Don't know what system this was actually referring to.

 

[A-driver]

When the Bluebell was finally connected to the main line at East Grinstead, a class 66 was run down to Sheffield Park for gauging purposes. When this was reported in Bluebell News, the description mentioned the loco's "sat nav" getting more and more confused as it came further south. Don't know what system this was actually referring to.

Pretty sure that's a joke you are taking rather too literally!

 

[mark-h]

It's for emergency situations. Conducting occurs because you have a driver who knows the traction type but not the route driving and another who know the route but not the traction "guiding" the former over the route. If the driving driver is incapacitated, the conducting driver (who does not know the traction) needs to know how to stop the train and where the emergency gear is - short circuit bar, dets and flags, evacuation ladder etc.

Whilst it is useful for the conducting driver to know the emergency equipment/stop on the train they are guiding I would expect the majority of times when a driver is incapacitated they are on their own in the cab.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

The DAS is updated every few hours with any timetable changes and timings if that's what you mean.
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That's a fair enough comment, we get an incentive payment and a percentage of fuel saved on a cost basis however without all drivers using it there will not be enough savings on fuel costs to merit a payment, if the payment was on an individual basis lets say 30% of the cost of fuel saved then a lot more drivers would use it. As a distraction for me I don't have a problem with it. As for knowing timings we have quite a large route card at our depot and do not have a complete standard pattern timetable so to remember all timings would need a hint from Einstein.

Back to the SAT-NAV issue my belief is you use a SAT-NAV to find your way to a location or to take an alternative route because of traffic. As these two parameters are not a part of driving a train what is the point.

The only point I can see is in an emergency and if the weather is bad with extremely low visibility and when you could possibly lose your bearings, so with it you can then get them back and/or find the nearest emergency access point or road bridge etc, even give the emergency services a set of GPS coordinates to give them your exact location.

 

[TDK]

The only point I can see is in an emergency and if the weather is bad with extremely low visibility and when you could possibly lose your bearings, so with it you can then get them back and/or find the nearest emergency access point or road bridge etc, even give the emergency services a set of GPS coordinates to give them your exact location.

True, but also obstructions, trespassers, rail problems, flooding etc. The lines I work have a sparse amount of mileage markers and it is quick to look at the DAS to see what the mileage is.

 

[MarkyT]

Even without notional 'perfect' SRTs, there is a serious purpose to an intelligent DAS system helping to make and execute better regulating decisions resulting in smoother flow in the event of minor perturbation. When a heavy freight train in particular is approaching an unplanned conflict in real time, an instruction to slow down early and get a later clear path through a junction can actually save running time compared to the alternative of stopping at the junction and having to pull away again from a complete stand. Clearly that's a subtle process and you would need to consider following traffic catching up too. However applied intelligently the process could help to reduce overall network delay AND save fuel. A place where this may be of great use is the London-bound merge at Heathrow Airport Junction on the GWML. Having commuted regularly from Reading to Paddington on fast trains, I know very well how long distance HSTs can often get slowed or stopped by a Heathrow Express given the road in preference. This is inevitable given the proximity of Heathrow and the likely punctuality of trains commencing there compared to the range of origins of the GWR expresses where chaotic variance of a few minutes remains routine and to be expected, even after the tangle at Reading has been largely sorted out. A real-time DAS can be used there to advise Up HSTs to slow marginally further back so as to avoid seeing so many cautionary aspects on final approach to the junction, and thus get a good smooth run. That saves journey time overall, with the benefit that turnround margins for cleaning and servicing are better protected. Passengers are not frustrated by unexpected heavy braking or intermediate stops, and fuel can be saved.