Sat Nav for a train?

[Gathursty]

Please bear with me. My mind was wandering whilst commuting along the motorway...

You know how you can buy a sat nav for a car... Well I was trying to think how this could be used primarily to get around the problem where a train driver can't drive certain lines due to lack of route knowledge.

I was thinking it through more this evening and came up with obvious problems such as it distracting the eyes from looking ahead and that the signaller sets your route but I think a sat nav may be good as it can warn regarding changes of speed and can highlight in a different colour sections that are more preferable for a train to be stopped if for some reason passengers had to leave the train away from a station.

As there are clearly drivers on this forum, how would you modify a sat nav to help you?
It's not a subtle bash drivers thread. More a whimsical thought.

An extension would be to update the sat nav in real-time to show alterations, especially last minute diversions or stops added/removed.

Over to you.

 

[TDK]

Please bear with me. My mind was wandering whilst commuting along the motorway...

You know how you can buy a sat nav for a car... Well I was trying to think how this could be used primarily to get around the problem where a train driver can't drive certain lines due to lack of route knowledge.

I was thinking it through more this evening and came up with obvious problems such as it distracting the eyes from looking ahead and that the signaller sets your route but I think a sat nav may be good as it can warn regarding changes of speed and can highlight in a different colour sections that are more preferable for a train to be stopped if for some reason passengers had to leave the train away from a station.

As there are clearly drivers on this forum, how would you modify a sat nav to help you?
It's not a subtle bash drivers thread. More a whimsical thought.

An extension would be to update the sat nav in real-time to show alterations, especially last minute diversions or stops added/removed.

Over to you.

For me a SAT NAV would be a waste of time as I as a driver relate my location to my surroundings and know exactly where I am. As for speeds drivers know where the speeds are as they do stations, gradients etc. so a SAT NAV would be of no use whosoever.

A SAT nav wouldn't really help a driver who doesn't have route knowledge because as quoted above it's you surroundings that assist on your location more than anything else.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, Germany has the Buchfahrplan, a ring-bound book containing detailed information on the line ahead, such as speeds and the likes. This has now I believe been replaced in most cases with an electronic version, and it substitutes for some aspects of route knowledge.

 

[Domh245]

Some of these aspects will be encompassed by ERTMS, no?

 

[AlexNL]

In the Netherlands, ProRail (infrastructure manager) and NS Reizigers (operator) have been working on RouteLint, a smartphone application which would be connected to the planning systems to give drivers realtime insight into which trains are in front of them, and the train right behind.

A video was made to explain how the system works, in Dutch:
[youtube]xmhI6Jyh0_U[/youtube]

I don't know if it has actually been built or not, though..

 

[AndyW33]

The main problem I can see with making the idea work at all is tunnels. Satnavs need line-of-sight to multiple satellites to work out where they are. As anyone who has ever driven a satnav equipped car through a road tunnel knows, you soon lose contact with the satellites, and regaining contact once you've emerged isn't instantaneous either.
Drivers are still going to need route knowledge for when to start braking for station stops just beyond the tunnel (or even inside it), speed restrictions that start inside or just beyond the tunnel, gradients and so on. Another issue - can you establish contact or maintain contact with satellites when your train is under an overall roof?
Be a bit restricting around Birmingham, Glasgow, and Liverpool, to name but three!

 

[Carntyne]

Sounds a wee bit like C-DAS that's on the way?

 

[JN114]

Route Knowledge isn't just for when driving - it's knowing who to contact and exactly where you are in an emergency, which line to place protection on first at a junction, and so on...

As seen in the south eastern derailment last year, cab equipment may be made inoperative by the incident. If you're driving "blind" on a route following only sat nav, what happens when it breaks?

While there are some occasions - normally during disruption where diversions are needed - where lack of route knowledge has harmed services, the vast majority of the time it's not a factor - rostering/resources won't put traincrew on jobs they don't sign.

 

[rf_ioliver]

The main problem I can see with making the idea work at all is tunnels. Satnavs need line-of-sight to multiple satellites to work out where they are. As anyone who has ever driven a satnav equipped car through a road tunnel knows, you soon lose contact with the satellites, and regaining contact once you've emerged isn't instantaneous either.

That's true for GPS, but remember that most satnavs (especially those in phones) are augmented by positioning information from the radio network (2G,3G,4G etc).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GPS

I'm not sure of the location or triangulation possibilities in GSM-R - never worked on that in any detail, though I do know people who have, but I guess there are possibilities in there.

Your main issues are primarily accuracy and reliability - can you guarantee that your location is to within whatever the necessary tolerances are. I'd guess around 1-2m would be the maximum. Misplacing your train's location by even 5m could have some interesting consequences...

You could also use "indoor positioning" in addition by using transponders located in known places on the railway, eg; inside tunnels - similar to the mechanism used for the tilting system authorisation.

What you're really looking for is more of a route knowledge system coupled with an accurate, reliable and trusted mechanism for the train positioning (the latter bit will be the expensive part) and as far as I can see ETCS Level 3 provides this kind of functionality.

t.

Ian

 

[TDK]

Sounds a wee bit like C-DAS that's on the way?

Yes, DAS is a good tool to save fuel and maintenance costs and also has your location to the nearest chain displayed with your scheduled ETA and ETD with an advised speed but it will take hell of a lot of work and a few years before it can be used to determine the location of a train in front or behind you. DAS does display upcoming speeds and stations but it currently is used as a tool for saving money on fuel, running a safer service due to the fact that it keeps a train to it's booked path so there are less stop signals to encounter, saves on brakes and also can give a smoother ride for the passengers but it does not have any route features apart from speeds and isn't 100% accurate as yet.

 

[atillathehunn]

Route Knowledge isn't just for when driving - it's knowing who to contact and exactly where you are in an emergency, which line to place protection on first at a junction, and so on...

As seen in the south eastern derailment last year, cab equipment may be made inoperative by the incident. If you're driving "blind" on a route following only sat nav, what happens when it breaks?

While there are some occasions - normally during disruption where diversions are needed - where lack of route knowledge has harmed services, the vast majority of the time it's not a factor - rostering/resources won't put traincrew on jobs they don't sign.

There are though examples of where this would be beneficial regularly, though not planned. For example, the LM trains to Liverpool from Birmingham. I've been on countless trains cancelled at Birmingham because they need to go via Bescot but it's not the driver that doesn't sign the route, but the guard. So surely a neat handheld device like this would put paid to this kind of cancellation which, while not planned, feels like it's all too regular.

 

[SPADTrap]

ETCS is soon to be fitted onto the GN 365s I read! Works to be completed by Alstom Traincare at Wembley in collaboration with Eversholt Rail Group and GTR.

 

[ComUtoR]

DAS does display upcoming speeds and stations but it currently is used as a tool for saving money on fuel

Which is very depressing and typical of the railway. I look at the potential for the DAS systems and I do see it as similar to Sat Nav (information and not direction) Can it display the next junction indicator or just the signal numbers ?

It looks to have the potential to be a very good Driver aid even from a route learning perspective it has some potential too. For DAS to be introduced as fuel savings is such a shame, wasteful even.

 

[380101]

Yes, DAS is a good tool to save fuel and maintenance costs and also has your location to the nearest chain displayed with your scheduled ETA and ETD with an advised speed but it will take hell of a lot of work and a few years before it can be used to determine the location of a train in front or behind you. DAS does display upcoming speeds and stations but it currently is used as a tool for saving money on fuel, running a safer service due to the fact that it keeps a train to it's booked path so there are less stop signals to encounter, saves on brakes and also can give a smoother ride for the passengers but it does not have any route features apart from speeds and isn't 100% accurate as yet.

Also another 'tool' for management to use against drivers

 

[The Planner]

Until you can be 100% confident that every SRT is correct then DAS will never fulfil its function.

 

[GB]

Which is very depressing and typical of the railway. I look at the potential for the DAS systems and I do see it as similar to Sat Nav (information and not direction) Can it display the next junction indicator or just the signal numbers ?

It looks to have the potential to be a very good Driver aid even from a route learning perspective it has some potential too. For DAS to be introduced as fuel savings is such a shame, wasteful even.

Maybe, but if you start getting rid of drivers core skills and start dumbing down the job, that can only lead to bad things for the grade further along the line.

 

[Gathursty]

For example, the LM trains to Liverpool from Birmingham. I've been on countless trains cancelled at Birmingham because they need to go via Bescot but it's not the driver that doesn't sign the route, but the guard.

Ah, I presumed that a guard can, after training, pick up any route going anywhere provided they've been given the calling pattern.

So for a further question, how can a sat nav or similar electronic gadget be used to reduce cancellations by lack of available guards that can sign a given route?

 

[Bevan Price]

Ah, I presumed that a guard can, after training, pick up any route going anywhere provided they've been given the calling pattern.

So for a further question, how can a sat nav or similar electronic gadget be used to reduce cancellations by lack of available guards that can sign a given route?

Personally never, I hope - the presence of a guard helps reassure passengers about personal security, especially at night.

But, in theory, within 20 years, an artificial intelligence "system" may be able to replace both the driver and the guard.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If a driver were to print off from the sectional appendix all bits relating to a route they sign, what sort of % of their route knowledge would that make up?

 

[Gathursty]

Personally never, I hope - the presence of a guard helps reassure passengers about personal security, especially at night.

But, in theory, within 20 years, an artificial intelligence "system" may be able to replace both the driver and the guard.

My question certainly wasn't about replacing the guard with something like HAL 9000. In fact, I'm very happy and feel safer with the status quo.

 

[A-driver]

If a driver were to print off from the sectional appendix all bits relating to a route they sign, what sort of % of their route knowledge would that make up?

It would tell them the geographical locations, radio details, line names and speeds. As a long straight line.

It wouldn't tell the driver were signals are, bridges, line side scenery, curves, braking points to stations etc.

 

[D365]

ETCS is soon to be fitted onto the GN 365s I read! Works to be completed by Alstom Traincare at Wembley in collaboration with Eversholt Rail Group and GTR.

Will the contract not extend to the 365s transferring to GWR?

 

[dcsprior]

When a driver is accompanied by a route conductor, what does this mean? As a layman I imagine a running commentary, is this the case? Or does the route conductor also have control of the train like a driving instructor in a dual-control car?

 

[A-driver]

When a driver is accompanied by a route conductor, what does this mean? As a layman I imagine a running commentary, is this the case? Or does the route conductor also have control of the train like a driving instructor in a dual-control car?

No duel control. The driver who signs the traction drives and tells the conductor where the emergency equipment is and how to apply the emergency brake etc.

The driver drives and the conductor conducts the route so they will say things like "line speed drops to 30mph just past tht blue bridge in the distance" etc.

It's not quite like an instructor telling a new trainee exactly how and when to apply the brake, more giving advance warning of the routes features. A bit like someone navigating you to their house in a car saying kings like "turn left just after tesco" and "watch for the speed camera hidden round the bend up ahead" etc.

 

[dcsprior]

No duel control. The driver who signs the traction drives and tells the conductor where the emergency equipment is and how to apply the emergency brake etc.

The driver drives and the conductor conducts the route so they will say things like "line speed drops to 30mph just past tht blue bridge in the distance" etc.

It's not quite like an instructor telling a new trainee exactly how and when to apply the brake, more giving advance warning of the routes features. A bit like someone navigating you to their house in a car saying kings like "turn left just after tesco" and "watch for the speed camera hidden round the bend up ahead" etc.

Thanks, I'd been wondering if some form of GPS-driven audiobook performing the role of route-conductor would do what the OP was after - if they need to be able to apply the emergency brake, then clearly not!

 

[notadriver]

Given how sat nav has mislead many car drivers into going into fields, lakes, even driving on railway lines - I think this is a terrible idea. Imagine the headline. Train missed station due to sat nav error.

 

[fowler9]

No duel control. The driver who signs the traction drives and tells the conductor where the emergency equipment is and how to apply the emergency brake etc.

The driver drives and the conductor conducts the route so they will say things like "line speed drops to 30mph just past tht blue bridge in the distance" etc.

It's not quite like an instructor telling a new trainee exactly how and when to apply the brake, more giving advance warning of the routes features. A bit like someone navigating you to their house in a car saying kings like "turn left just after tesco" and "watch for the speed camera hidden round the bend up ahead" etc.

I'd be a bit worried if train drivers were being warned where not to break the speed limit in some kind of formal way. Is this an indication of how you drive a car?

 

[AndrewB]

Useful explanation A-driver.

What info does a guard need to know about a specific route.

 

[A-driver]

I'd be a bit worried if train drivers were being warned where not to break the speed limit in some kind of formal way. Is this an indication of how you drive a car?

They are not and don't break the speed limit, I was more explaining how conversation may go drawing comparisons from things people may understand. Although pointing out TPWS grids set fairly low would certainly be something they would point out.

 

[FordFocus]

C-DAS would only work if every piece of rolling stock was fitted with the same equipment or software communicated to the same server. As per everything with the railway, nothing is ever really compatible with TOCs these days.