Saltburn to Darlington via Middlesbrough electrification business case?

[rattyben]

I might have misunderstood this query. Has the battery/off wire range of these units been specified? Has the minimum unit length been set (eg 2, 3 or 4 carriages)

Regarding the North East, it will depend how much time they need under the wires to run for the day. Am I right in thinking that all the “North East stock” ends the day under electrified wires at Darlington and Heaton?

I think the Lancaster-Morecambe and Leeds-Morecambe are contenders.

Blackpool-York is a contender with electrification at either end by the time these units arrive. Blackpool South, Ormskirk and Colne operations might make it depending on range

CLC line Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester is a contender.

mods note - split from this thread

Northern New Fleet and Cascade allocations (speculation).

I figured this needed its own thread. Will the North East get more 158s or the new MMUs? They have said new trains would arrive in the North East by 2030/31. That’s an email I got back from them with regards this question in May. Why would the North East need the MMU's quite early on...

www.railforums.co.uk

Tees Valley Combined Authority has just given Network Rail £800k to build a business case for electrifying Saltburn to Northallerton via Middlesbrough.

“Network Rail has been awarded an £800,460 contract by the Tees Valley Combined Authority (TVCA) to develop a business case for electrification of the line between Northallerton and Saltburn.

The Combined Authority’s Mayor and Cabinet agreed on the project in March 2024.”

Source: https://www.railmagazine.com/news/n...s-case-for-middlesbrough-line-electrification

 

[stevieinselby]

Tees Valley Combined Authority has just given Network Rail £800k to build a business case for electrifying Saltburn to Northallerton via Middlesbrough.

Seems an odd priority for an hourly service, when the service to Darlington is half-hourly, especially as TPE will almost certainly be getting bi-mode trains for the Teesside route so could make use of electrification from Eaglescliffe anyway.

 

[dodecahedron67]

It's probably a decent thing to electrify for freight reasons as well as the passenger services. I'd imagine electrifying Saltburn to Eaglescliffe would give enough for the Saltburn - Darlington/Bishop Auckland services to go over to BEMU too. Maybe even enough for a Durham Coast service to be BEMU as well, maybe needing some decent layovers at Newcastle & Boro to get enough juice for the run up the coast...

 

[stevieinselby]

It's probably a decent thing to electrify for freight reasons as well as the passenger services. I'd imagine electrifying Saltburn to Eaglescliffe would give enough for the Saltburn - Darlington/Bishop Auckland services to go over to BEMU too. Maybe even enough for a Durham Coast service to be BEMU as well, maybe needing some decent layovers at Newcastle & Boro to get enough juice for the run up the coast...

Looking at the freight trains that ran through Yarm today, not a single one is close to being able to run on electric even with the line from Northallerton to Teesside and all the yards around Teesside wired up, they all run through places like Castleford or Hebden Bridge or Lincoln that are not on the list for electrification in the foreseeable future, so it would be a bold move to use that as the rationale...

 

[ainsworth74]

The media picked up a slight red herring, I think due to a slight mess up on the tender website. What TVCA are actually looking for is:

TVCA has allocated funding to develop a feasibility study for
electrification of the Tees Valley rail network with a particular
priority focus on the route between Northallerton and
Middlesbrough / Saltburn and also the Darlington to Eaglescliffe
link to provide connectivity for freight and for high-speed long-
distance services enabling the area to benefit from it's
connectivity to the East Coast Main Line (ECML) and the Trans-
Pennine Route Upgrade (TRU).

This project will provide a feasibility assessment of the anticipated
electrification investment required for the Tees Valley Combined
Authority area. Furthermore detailed feasibility work will then be
required to start develop an investment proposition and working
with the rail industry and government an investment strategy to
enable this to be delivered.

This is from Transport Committee minutes from a early-2025 (at which point they had expected it to begin in Summer 2025 ).

The actual tender title also makes it clear the extent is wider than just Northallerton - Saltburn:

Development of a feasibility study for the decarbonisation of the rail network in the Tees Valley.​

TVCA-PROC-0350 - Development of a feasibility study for the decarbonisation of the rail network in the Tees Valley. - Find a Tender

www.find-tender.service.gov.uk

The original version referred to Northallerton - Saltburn only which is why I think the confusion has crept in to the scope.

 

[Kite159]

I can't help think if Network Rail wanted to continue with electrifying the network in England there will be more lines worthy of getting electrified first. Ie Warrington Central which will make a bigger impact in decarbonisation.

Unless Northern get bimodal trains (and it's the North East, they will probably get cast off 769s ) wiring to Middlesbrough will benefit TPE (and I guess Grand Central when they get their bimodes to run on electric to Eaglescliffe)

 

[ainsworth74]

I can't help think if Network Rail wanted to continue with electrifying the network in England there will be more lines worthy of getting electrified first. Ie Warrington Central which will make a bigger impact in decarbonisation.

But it's not Network Rail who are the driving force behind this, it's Tees Valley Combined Authority who are wanting to put the case together. They're just using Network Rail as their contractor to do the feasibility study. Not like TVCA are likely to want to fund wiring up the line via Warrington Central so wouldn't really make sense for them to fund a study in the North West

 

[Kite159]

So no doubt the study will come back as "electrifying the line is a bad business case, the future is trains which have batteries rather than diesel engines". More a tick box with a public body wasting money which could be spent elsewhere, like rebuilding the footbridge at South Bank or investing in step free access.

 

[Farigiraf]

Not denying that there are other cases where electrification has a better cost/benefit trade-off, but in world of widespread regional devolution which we can hopefully expect in the future, if we just focus on the North East, this would be a good idea - and necessary if we want to eliminate diesel trains. To convert most services to EMU or BEMU in the area you'd definitely need to wire Darlington to Redcar Central. Don't necessarily have to wire Saltburn (to keep costs down) if everything's got a battery anyway, but it would be a logical short extension.

Durham Coast trains could (I think) utilise T&W metro wires from Newcastle to Sunderland, and Tyne Valley trains could charge at Carlisle or Hexham. It's just the Whitby service that would remain diesel - could a BEMU do Nunthorpe - Whitby and back in one charge? If so, then electrification to Nunthorpe would be a logical next step. At that point everything could run on battery and OLE, and additional electrification in the region after that point would just be to increase reliability.

Dreaming over - let's see how much funding has actually been allocated to such a project. £800k? Nevermind then, I'll keep dreaming

 

[ainsworth74]

So no doubt the study will come back as "electrifying the line is a bad business case, the future is trains which have batteries rather than diesel engines". More a tick box with a public body wasting money which could be spent elsewhere,

Potentially but considering what else TVCA spends it's money on it's comparatively £800k well spent even if the answer comes back as "Batteries for All the Trains!". Personally I reckon it might well come back with a case that just about washes it's face particularly if it can be argued that it might help electrify some rail freight alongside the passenger services. Certainly I could see an argument for wires from Darlington/Northallerton to around Redcar as that covers the majority of the freight (unless anyone wants to wire the Boulby Branch ) and the passenger services are then either wired or easily doable with batteries.

But we shall see!

like rebuilding the footbridge at South Bank or investing in step free access.

I mean I think those are quite important personally? Step free access is better for everyone from both those that have reduced mobility to people with heavy cases and pushchairs, etc etc. Plus without a new footbridge South Bank station might as well just close so it does actually need a new bridge.

It's just the Whitby service that would remain diesel - could a BEMU do Nunthorpe - Whitby and back in one charge? If so, then electrification to Nunthorpe would be a logical next step.

Probably worth keeping an eye on the BMU trial on the Greenford branch. They've been making some fairly optimistic range claims (around 60 miles on one charge) so with a bit of fast charging at Middlesbrough and Whitby to top the batteries back up...

Dreaming over - let's see how much funding has actually been allocated to such a project. £800k? Nevermind then, I'll keep dreaming

I mean it's just a feasibility study, I reckon £800k is probably appropriate enough to do that!

 

[HSTEd]

I'd expect that £800k will be spent and the business case will most likely come back with a terrrible BCR and that will be that.

Perhaps if they were planning a six train per hour Tees Valley Metro or something....

 

[ainsworth74]

Perhaps if they were planning a six train per hour Tees Valley Metro or something....

Be still my beating heart!

 

[Snow1964]

So no doubt the study will come back as "electrifying the line is a bad business case, the future is trains which have batteries rather than diesel engines". More a tick box with a public body wasting money which could be spent elsewhere, like rebuilding the footbridge at South Bank or investing in step free access.

It also depends on alternative business cases, if it is being done as part of a decarbonisation policy. Basically if don't make the trains electric, what is the cost of cutting carbon from trucks or motorists instead. But decarbonising these alternatives are virtually uncontrollable by the combined authority.

So how do they meet a decarbonisation policy, take action on what can control and affect, or leave it to chance that motorists might do it for them.

 

[30907]

Slightly OT but what happened to the idea of making Teeside a centre for hydrogen technology, MUs included?

 

[tbtc]

Given all the things Houchen and friends have been spending public money on in recent years, wiring up the local railway lines seems a pretty sensible proposal

It's just frustrating that it costs hundreds of thousands of pounds to do these feasibility studies etc, sounds like nice work if you can get it, and important to make sure that we filter out the schemes with the best case, but that's modern Britain; enquiries and commissions and appeals, but little in the way of action

I'm all for it if it goes ahead but I worry that setting up these investigations can just be a very expensive way of giving local voters the impression that politicians are doing 'something'

 

[Grimsby town]

Given all the things Houchen and friends have been spending public money on in recent years, wiring up the local railway lines seems a pretty sensible proposal

It does seem remarkably sensible for once. Seems to suggest that they've got some expertise in and it's not just ideas from Houchen and his staff. I did see that a former transport planning colleague was working there so maybe they're finally building a transport authority.

Teesside has pretty good rail line coverage compared to some other similar sized cities. The main problem is that the stopping services are operated by slow accelerating, old diesel rollingstock and the frequency is too poor to make it a proper rapid transit network.

I always liked the Tees Valley Metro concept which was essentially upping the frequency of Saltburn to Darlington/Hartlepool to Nunthorpe, adding new stations, and ordering new rollingstock. Electrification would make a scheme like that easier to implement with BEMUs. Personally, I'd like to see tram-trains on Teeside in a similar way to the Cardiff Valleys, so street running extensions in the future. Given Teeside has a £1 billion in sustainable tranport funding to spend, I don't see why electrification and new rollingstock shouldn't be possible.

 

[ainsworth74]

Slightly OT but what happened to the idea of making Teeside a centre for hydrogen technology, MUs included?

Fell down the back of Houchen's sofa. He had more money to make for his cronies local businessmen who are definitely not rinsing the tax payer via other projects. BP pulled out of a hydrogen project at the end of last year (apparently more money was demanded for further remediation and also Houchen and co want to put an AI data centre on part of the land that was earmarked for BP). I think there's another project in development to produce hydrogen but it's all gone very quiet so I don't know if it's still going ahead.

I think there's a few smaller scale projects still ongoing (demonstrating the feasibility of hydrogen fuelled airside vehicles, refuelling sites, etc). The MU side seemed to die a death many years ago. Northern applied to Redcar & Cleveland Council back in 2019 for an screening opinion on an environmental impact assessment for a depot site which would have hosted hydrogen units. But that's the last time I've come across anything firm to do with that scheme.

 

[Bald Rick]

So no doubt the study will come back as "electrifying the line is a bad business case, the future is trains which have batteries rather than diesel engines". More a tick box with a public body wasting money which could be spent elsewhere, like rebuilding the footbridge at South Bank or investing in step free access.

It’s a decarbonisation study, not prejudging that OLE throughout is the answer.

It's just the Whitby service that would remain diesel - could a BEMU do Nunthorpe - Whitby and back in one charge?

Yes, easily, given the stopping pattern, linespeed and route profile.

It's just frustrating that it costs hundreds of thousands of pounds to do these feasibility studies etc, sounds like nice work if you can get it

Depends on the level of feasibility you do. Feasibility is all about identifying scope and risks, and then attempting to scale those risks and identify methods of mitigation. You can do a cheap feasibility and leave a lot of scope and risk unidentified / unquantified, or a more meaningful feasibility and start nailing some of it down. In all my years of being involved in railway projects, proper feasibility studies have rarely varied from being 1-2% of total cost.

Given that Northallerton / Darlington to Saltburn is in the region of 40 miles of route, that’s going to be in the region of half a billion of wiring if all done in OLE. £800k won’t even break the back of the feasibility necessary, for example I guess it will be mostly desk based and not include much in the way of surveys.

As TPE and Northern are both in the process of ordering battery trains, I would be astonished if the answer comesback as anything other than electrification islands in a few places.

 

[deltic08]

Durham Coast trains could (I think) utilise T&W metro wires from Newcastle to Sunderland, and Tyne Valley trains could charge at Carlisle or Hexham. It's just the Whitby service that would remain diesel - could a BEMU do Nunthorpe - Whitby and back in one charge? If so, then electrification to Nunthorpe would be a logical next step. At that point everything could run on battery and OLE, and additional electrification in the region after that point would just be to increase reliability.

What is the maximum speed for using basic trolley wire? If not above 45mph then could not the Whitby branch be partially wired to say Glaisale on the cheap? A BEMU would definitely run from Glaidale to Whitby and return on a full charge.

 

[Ploughman]

Has the question as to what OHLE is to be used been answered yet?
Bearing in mind the existing situation with Metro in the area and Network.

 

[Bald Rick]

Has the question as to what OHLE is to be used been answered yet?
Bearing in mind the existing situation with Metro in the area and Network.

the area being studied doesn’t go anywhere near the T&W Metro routes.

 

[Trainlog]

- could a BEMU do Nunthorpe - Whitby and back in one charge?

They could install a charging station at Battersby; it typically takes a couple of minutes for the driver to change ends on the train there anyway, so they could spend that time charging up before heading to either Whitby or Nunthorpe.

 

[ainsworth74]

What is the maximum speed for using basic trolley wire? If not above 45mph then could not the Whitby branch be partially wired to say Glaisale on the cheap? A BEMU would definitely run from Glaidale to Whitby and return on a full charge.

They could install a charging station at Battersby; it typically takes a couple of minutes for the driver to change ends on the train there anyway, so they could spend that time charging up before heading to either Whitby or Nunthorpe.

Seems unlikely to be necessary to faff with either of those solutions. Fast chargers at Whitby and Middlesbrough would be sufficient. Assuming that there's no wiring to Nunthorpe it's only 35 miles each way, whilst we need to see the real world results I suspect that the trial ongoing down in Greenford is likely to show that that's perfectly doable with fast chargers for a BMU. Might need a bit of timetable jiggery pokery to give a longer turnaround at Whitby to let it get a proper charge on (easier to have something sit there for 15/20 minutes than Middlesbrough even post P3), but I reckon the Whitby branch can be "electrified" very easily with BMUs as the tech now begins to mature.

 

[bluenoxid]

Thinking this through, it is very easy for Teesside to become a diesel island receiving cascaded trains every 10-15 years through to 2050. The feasibility study might be helpful to building a case that Teesside is ready for the next generation of new trains with relatively small investments compared to other networks/mayoraltys.

 

[Halifaxlad]

They could install a charging station at Battersby; it typically takes a couple of minutes for the driver to change ends on the train there anyway, so they could spend that time charging up before heading to either Whitby or Nunthorpe.

Isn't NR looking at removing the reversal at Battersby ?

I think you may want to take that into consideration.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Only just seen this thread via a link from another thread. At least we are still seeing proposals and business cases. Electrification is not dead yet. I always thought Middlesbrough was a good add on option to ECML.

 

[MadMac]

Isn't NR looking at removing the reversal at Battersby ?

I think you may want to take that into consideration.

I thought I had seen something about that.

 

[stevieinselby]

Isn't NR looking at removing the reversal at Battersby ?

I think you may want to take that into consideration.

I've got no information on it, but I would be astonished if they were.
There has never been a curve connecting Kildale to Great Ayton directly, and it would be a tight squeeze (although not impossible) to get it in before the level crossing.
The railway is in a slight cutting as it approaches from Great Ayton, so some earthworks would be needed, as well as moving an accommodation bridge.
Nothing there that's too challenging, but I really can't see the return on investment in doing all that work to cut maybe 8 minutes off a ~1h30 journey time on a rural route that runs 6 journeys a day. The train will still be slower than the hourly X93 bus, it won't be enough to allow them to run any additional trains, they might just get to a regular interval 3 hourly service but it's going to be really tight and at that level of frequency it doesn't really matter whether it's clockface or not.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Ie Warrington Central which will make a bigger impact in decarbonisation.

For what it's worth, Network Rail commissioned an outline design for a CLC upgrade project including electrification, re-signalling and platform length increasing. I talked a bit about how the electrification was planned to work here. The study won some kind of award for being fairly innovative with OLE clearance design but then in end the project was canned mainly because there became too much uncertainty over whether or not NPR is real, whether or not Freightliner are moving their terminal and also the consequences of Oxford Rd remodelling. All these factors mean it was deemed not possible to adequately figure out how CLC should be invested in any further.

 

[ainsworth74]

I've got no information on it, but I would be astonished if they were.
There has never been a curve connecting Kildale to Great Ayton directly, and it would be a tight squeeze (although not impossible) to get it in before the level crossing.
The railway is in a slight cutting as it approaches from Great Ayton, so some earthworks would be needed, as well as moving an accommodation bridge.
Nothing there that's too challenging, but I really can't see the return on investment in doing all that work to cut maybe 8 minutes off a ~1h30 journey time on a rural route that runs 6 journeys a day. The train will still be slower than the hourly X93 bus, it won't be enough to allow them to run any additional trains, they might just get to a regular interval 3 hourly service but it's going to be really tight and at that level of frequency it doesn't really matter whether it's clockface or not.

Yes I've never been particularly persuaded that removing the reversal at Battersby as being an especially good use of precious resources on a tertiary route. I reckon if Battersby was seen to be a capacity issue it would be easier and cheaper to install a second platform so you weren't completely constrained to first train in/last train out. But really the gains there are so marginal as to not be worth it.

I think the only real investment you want on Whitby is the ability to run one train every other hour which theoretically is doable now I believe apart from between Grosmont and Whitby where I think NYMR mean that National Rail couldn't run at a greater frequency. So if anything it's that section you want to spend precious money on, not shaving a few minutes off Great Ayton - Kildale.