Salisbury/Exeter resignalling?

[alastair]

In the latest Rail magazine (Issue 1052 dated 7 Jan, page 8) the normally well-informed Paul Clifton states:

Plans to upgrade the West of England route had previously included discontinuous third-rail electrification west of Basingstoke, and potentially using spare Class 450's or even amended Class 701 Arterios. The ideas were linked to the need to replace signalling on the route around 2030 and an upgrade to the Salisbury depot, which was built in the 1980's specifically to service the Class 159 fleet.

I was under the impression that the line had been resignalled around 2012/3 with control being from Basingstoke ROC. If I'm correct, why would resignalling be required again after a fairly short period?

Can anyone clarify, many thanks.

 

[Bigfoot]

In the latest Rail magazine the normally well-informed Paul Clifton states that there is a need "to replace the signalling around 2030" on this line. I was under the impression that the line had been resignalled around 2012/3 with control being from Basingstoke ROC. If I'm correct, why would resignalling be required again after a fairly short period?
Can anyone clarify, many thanks.

Salisbury is signalled by.... Salisbury box...

 

[zwk500]

Salisbury controls as far as Tisbury and Opened in 1981, so is getting on for 45 years old. The current Sectional Appendix (Dec 2025) indicates it works Track Circuit Block (TCB) within it's area but works Tokenless Block (TB) to Basingstoke.

Confusingly the Sectional Appendix refers to Basingstoke (West of England) SB, rather than BROC. This works TCB within it's area. At Honiton the Sectional Appendix is unclear if there is a separate Basingstoke SB [not including (West of England] which works TB with Basingstoke (West of England), and then TCB to Exmouth Jn, or if this is an error. The major resignalling work for this section was carried out in 2012.

Exmouth Jn controls from Honiton to Exmouth Jn (somewhat unsurprisingly), and as above the Sectional Appendix is unclear if it works directly to BROC with TCB, or to a separate Basingstoke (WoE) SB via TB. Exmouth Jn had a new panel fitted in 1988 so is nearly 40 years old.

Exmouth Jn fringes with Exeter PSB under normal TCB for the final run to Exeter St Davids. This area of Exeter PSB was resignalled in 1985.

My guess is that Paul Clifton is talking about Salisbury Box. by 2030 it will be 50 years old. However, Exmouth Jn is also a very possible candidate. Given the state of the Wessex Sectional Appendix nowadays I'm not sure whether Tokenless Block is still in use or not.

 

[brad465]

Resignalling at Salisbury would be a good opportunity to do something about the Tisbury loop, but given no grand announcement has been made about this, it can be safely assumed this isn't happening.

 

[TSG]

Confusingly Basingstoke has 2 boxes. BASC replaced the original Basingstoke power box, controlling Farnborough to past Worting Junction. More panels were subsequently added for part of the West of England route and I think part of the Dorset coast. This was all in before BROC was built

 

[Lucy1501]

At Honiton the Sectional Appendix is unclear if there is a separate Basingstoke SB

There is a separate Basingstoke SB with two panels - one for the station and one for the WoE line.

 

[John R]

My guess is that Paul Clifton is talking about Salisbury Box. by 2030 it will be 50 years old. However, Exmouth Jn is also a very possible candidate. Given the state of the Wessex Sectional Appendix nowadays I'm not sure whether Tokenless Block is still in use or not.

As someone that remembers the previous Salisbury resigning when the semaphores were swept away, (I was at Soton Uni at the time) I am left wondering where the last half century has gone!

 

[zwk500]

Confusingly Basingstoke has 2 boxes. BASC replaced the original Basingstoke power box, controlling Farnborough to past Worting Junction. More panels were subsequently added for part of the West of England route and I think part of the Dorset coast. This was all in before BROC was built

There is a separate Basingstoke SB with two panels - one for the station and one for the WoE line.

Ah, that makes more sense.

So can I take from these remarks:

That it is indeed Tokenless Block between Salisbury SB and Basingtoke SB (WoE Panel)

But could you clarify what is going on at the West End?:



These 3 drawings suggest that Basingstoke (WoE) works Tokenless Block to the main panel at Basingstoke SB and then that panel fringes with Exmouth Jn under TCB completely. Is that the case, or does Basingstoke (WoE) work Tokenless Block directly to Exmouth Jn?

 

[alastair]

Salisbury controls as far as Tisbury and Opened in 1981, so is getting on for 45 years old. The current Sectional Appendix (Dec 2025) indicates it works Track Circuit Block (TCB) within it's area but works Tokenless Block (TB) to Basingstoke.

Confusingly the Sectional Appendix refers to Basingstoke (West of England) SB, rather than BROC. This works TCB within it's area. At Honiton the Sectional Appendix is unclear if there is a separate Basingstoke SB [not including (West of England] which works TB with Basingstoke (West of England), and then TCB to Exmouth Jn, or if this is an error. The major resignalling work for this section was carried out in 2012.

Exmouth Jn controls from Honiton to Exmouth Jn (somewhat unsurprisingly), and as above the Sectional Appendix is unclear if it works directly to BROC with TCB, or to a separate Basingstoke (WoE) SB via TB. Exmouth Jn had a new panel fitted in 1988 so is nearly 40 years old.

Exmouth Jn fringes with Exeter PSB under normal TCB for the final run to Exeter St Davids. This area of Exeter PSB was resignalled in 1985.

My guess is that Paul Clifton is talking about Salisbury Box. by 2030 it will be 50 years old. However, Exmouth Jn is also a very possible candidate. Given the state of the Wessex Sectional Appendix nowadays I'm not sure whether Tokenless Block is still in use or not.

Many thanks for your detailed reply, much appreciated.

 

[Gloster]

As someone that remembers the previous Salisbury resigning when the semaphores were swept away, (I was at Soton Uni at the time) I am left wondering where the last half century has gone!

Very much the same for me…and I was due to be made redundant because of the resignalling. It was made clear that Salisbury Panel was only intended to be a temporary arrangement, which is why they stuck it in the station building rather than providing a new construction.

 

[D6130]

Surely it can't be Tokenless Block between Salisbury and Basingstoke? That's a single line signalling system. It must be TCB (Track Circuit Block) between Basingstoke and Salisbury (Wilton Junction) - and possibly through to Tisbury.

 

[Gloster]

Surely it can't be Tokenless Block between Salisbury and Basingstoke? That's a single line signalling system. It must be TCB (Track Circuit Block) between Basingstoke and Salisbury (Wilton Junction) - and possibly through to Tisbury.

It was TCB all the way over the double track from Basingstoke to Tunnel Junction when I was at Tunnel, then Absolute Block on the Down and a sort of TCB on the Up to Salisbury East. I think it was then track circuited through West to Wilton and then Tokenless to Gillingham. I am not sure, but I think it is now TCB all the way through Salisbury under Salisbury Panel, but still Tokenless from Wilton to Gillingham, but with the difference that Gillingham on is controlled from Basingstoke (Gillingham box remains as a Ground Frame). It does seem a bit odd to an old signalman’s eyes that you have remote Tokenless, but with axle-counters and fully-braked trains it is no doubt safe enough.

I think it may be a similar arrangement at Exmouth Junction.

 

[zwk500]

Surely it can't be Tokenless Block between Salisbury and Basingstoke? That's a single line signalling system. It must be TCB (Track Circuit Block) between Basingstoke and Salisbury (Wilton Junction) - and possibly through to Tisbury.

Sectional Appendix posted above states tokenless block on the single line section between Wilton Jn (Controlled by Salisbury SB) and Tisbury (controlled by Basongstoke SB, WoE panel).

The section of line between Basingstoke station and Wilton jn is TCB.

 

[Lucy1501]

Rather curiously Salisbury works Tokenless block to itself at Tisbury, as well as towards Basingstoke SB. There was a similar system at Ryde St. John’s till that got replaced with axle counters.

 

[Snow1964]

If there is talk of resignalling Salisbury area in about 5 years, would have thought they may as well just jump straight to ECTS type solution.

Both the 158s on Cardiff-Portsmouth, and 159s on Waterloo-Exeter are likely to be replaced around 2029-2031 anyway, and any new stock expected to last until 2060s is bound to need ECTS fitted at some stage in its life.

There are a number of freight trains to/from Southampton and Eastleigh areas, but in 5 years time many freight locos will have been fitted with ECTS for network wide use (parts of East coast and Transpennine will require it), so not a big deal in general scheme of things.

Although the thread is Salisbury area, have to bear in mind that Westbury box is also from early 1980s, so it is a relatively self contained area to convert, and in which virtually all the rolling stock (except GWR IETs, and freight locos) is likely to be renewed in next 4-7 years anyway.

 

[zwk500]

If there is talk of resignalling Salisbury area in about 5 years, would have thought they may as well just jump straight to ECTS type solution.

While that would be ideal, it's unlikely to be practical given the 'slide to the right' of the overall ETCS programme. Full ECML signals-away between Peterborough (exclusive) and King's Cross is only programmed for October 2030 according to the latest Enhancements Delivery Plan.

Both the 158s on Cardiff-Portsmouth, and 159s on Waterloo-Exeter are likely to be replaced around 2029-2031 anyway, and any new stock expected to last until 2060s is bound to need ECTS fitted at some stage in its life.

Given how rolling stock procurement is going, there is no guarantee of these units being either replaced or retrofitted before the signalling is life-expired.

There are a number of freight trains to/from Southampton and Eastleigh areas, but in 5 years time many freight locos will have been fitted with ECTS for network wide use (parts of East coast and Transpennine will require it), so not a big deal in general scheme of things.

AIUI the ECDP has specifically chosen a section of line where there is limited freight demand and therefore only small tranches of freight locos need fitting for ETCS. I don't think anywhere for TRU is being fitted with ETCS signals-away, although they may have L2 Overlay.
Peterbrough station itself and the line northwards towards Grantham are retaining signals for freight traffic to/from March under ECDP. FOCs will only need ETCS fitting to locos working between Fletton Jn and Finsbury Park (eventually).

 

[Annetts key]

Don't be a bit surprised if all the signalling equipment referred to in this topic has life extension work rather than renewal schemes. Network Rail doesn't have much money for big renewal schemes apart from on major main lines for some years to come.

And as ETCS/ERTMS is supposed to be rolled out in the future, the likelihood of big and expensive conventional resignalling schemes that don't offer significant day to day cost savings is low.

There are other places still running on late 1960s and 1970s route relay Interlocking systems that are likely higher priorities.

 

[pompeyfan]

I believe Honiton to Exmouth is TCB throughout as there is intermediate block signals, and if there is a token less block, it’s very reliable as I’ve never heard of it failing.

 

[Bigfoot]

Don't be a bit surprised if all the signalling equipment referred to in this topic has life extension work rather than renewal schemes. Network Rail doesn't have much money for big renewal schemes apart from on major main lines for some years to come.

And as ETCS/ERTMS is supposed to be rolled out in the future, the likelihood of big and expensive conventional resignalling schemes that don't offer significant day to day cost savings is low.

There are other places still running on late 1960s and 1970s route relay Interlocking systems that are likely higher priorities.

You say this but Havant is due to be resignalled in the near future which isn't that old in the grand scheme of things (2007/8).

 

[TSG]

You say this but Havant is due to be resignalled in the near future which isn't that old in the grand scheme of things (2007/8).

There's little choice because

1. much of the track-side equipment is specific to the interlocking, so cannot be replaced with more widely used equipment, nor can other interlockings control it without a lot of modification
2. it is unsupported by the manufacturer so interlocking changes cannot be made and spares are hard to come by
3. it is not very reliable

The non standard equipment and inability to make modifications means the only option is to get rid if the lot in one go and replace practically everything.

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/havant-asc-resignalling.282533/

 

[Lucy1501]

You say this but Havant is due to be resignalled in the near future which isn't that old in the grand scheme of things (2007/8).

New doesn't necessarily mean it was built to a good standard.

Leicester PSB for example was filled with a bad batch of wiring which was only found out after the fact, causing wire degradation issues and contributing to its relatively early demise compared to other power boxes of the same era.

Havant in particular is known for being a particularly dodgy resignalling in the grand scheme of things and it was an absolute disaster trying to get it up and running. They literally had to reopen two signal boxes not used in decades and introduce absolute block working to maintain somewhat of a service.

 

[Gloster]

New doesn't necessarily mean it was built to a good standard.

Leicester PSB for example was filled with a bad batch of wiring which was only found out after the fact, causing wire degradation issues and contributing to its relatively early demise compared to other power boxes of the same era.

Havant in particular is known for being a particularly dodgy resignalling in the grand scheme of things and it was an absolute disaster trying to get it up and running. They literally had to reopen two signal boxes not used in decades and introduce absolute block working to maintain somewhat of a service.

As far as I can remember the only long-closed box that reopened was Portsmouth Harbour, which had closed in 1968. However, I think that both Havant and Portsmouth Panel had their closure dates postponed: they, or at least the latter, might even have been closed and then hurriedly reopened in order to act as block posts.

 

[MadMac]

New doesn't necessarily mean it was built to a good standard.

Leicester PSB for example was filled with a bad batch of wiring which was only found out after the fact, causing wire degradation issues and contributing to its relatively early demise compared to other power boxes of the same era.

Havant in particular is known for being a particularly dodgy resignalling in the grand scheme of things and it was an absolute disaster trying to get it up and running. They literally had to reopen two signal boxes not used in decades and introduce absolute block working to maintain somewhat of a service.

I refer you to My reply regarding Siemens turning up at my office while the Portsmouth debacle was going on…..

 

[Backroom_boy]

New doesn't necessarily mean it was built to a good standard.

Leicester PSB for example was filled with a bad batch of wiring which was only found out after the fact, causing wire degradation issues and contributing to its relatively early demise compared to other power boxes of the same era.

Havant in particular is known for being a particularly dodgy resignalling in the grand scheme of things and it was an absolute disaster trying to get it up and running. They literally had to reopen two signal boxes not used in decades and introduce absolute block working to maintain somewhat of a service.

Is Havant going to be a like for like replacement or will it be re-controlled to a ROC?

 

[TSG]

Is Havant going to be a like for like replacement or will it be re-controlled to a ROC?

I believe its going to BROC